[Spoiler Alert] About the endings

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Do you want more RPGs with happy endings?


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Actually, V is a legend by accident in the rogue path. Basically they wake up with access to arasaka technology, Blue eyes thinking they are a bad ass, and The mercs seeing them as a legendary merc who worked with rogue on legendary mission and survived.

Got to be weird, everyone thinking your great, but your biggest achievement is a lie.
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the game always decided how V acts, its always only 2-5 ways to react to any situation. V has predetermined ways of speech, and mannerisms.

Well yes, that's always the case in an RPG. If they wanted V to be a predefined protagonist then I guess they failed in properly defining them during the course of the game.

Before the endgame the game does a pretty good job providing the dialogue choices that would make sense, allow the players to ask the questions that would make sense in that situation and handle situation in a way congruent with the player's V. In other words, the ability to define their own V.
That kinda started showing cracks in the final Voodoo boys mission, when talking to Alt (I mean, who wouldn't have wanted to ask Alt, about Alt, instead of the fate of the Voodoo boys?) and it just gets worse in the endings, where suddenly your choices are curtailed to strictly get you to the point the writers want you to end up at.

Sounds like a "we ran out of time, so railroading it is" deal to me. It's just especially disappointing given the attention to not curtailing choice that was present earlier in the game.

People have beef with the sun ending, mostly because of beef with the LIs.

Well, I've been pretty clear I think a lot of the ending slides don't match the endings they're on, and that, ignoring those, I could live with most of the endings, since they're all very much open-ended.
But it's not just the LIs though (though those are the worst offenders, due to the emotional investment, obviously), a non-LI related one that "doesn't fit" being the Mitch one in the Aldecaldos ending.

But they don't acknowledge the beef with the LIs are mostly about how the LI feels, not actually what v wants or says. Judy is working herself up to leave night city, and leave V, she's trying to blame V to make it easier. Panam Wants v to not force her to choose. River and Kerry are insecure. To be frank they seem a bit self centered when V is trying to plan a dangerous mission that may determine their life or death.(except panam, its not just about her desires)

Of the four Judy bothers me the most, because 6 extra months isn't a long time, and she doesn't have any ties that force her to move (unlike Panam), or stay (River/Kerry). I've spent longer in a city I hated (that I wasn't even native to, unlike Judy) to be with a person I loved. And if I were dying anyway, I'd just pack my bags if it were such a big deal to them.

Sure, I'm not judy, but the way it was handled felt more like they had an outcome and then just "made it happen", regardless of how things played out.

V in sun ending has one decent chance at survival, and this mission is it. Everyone in Sun ending picked survival, so that should be a primary motivator to Vs actions after that.

People keep saying that last mission is about V's survival, but nothing I've found in game supports that (means I might've missed something, since this seems to be a general consensus). Mr Blue Eyes seems to imply it is about wealth, and V's response to that felt particularly defeatist, so can someone provide some (f)actual information to support the claim that the entire space mission is actually in any way to save V's life because everything I got from it was that it was just the biggest, baddest, heist that would burn V's name into history forever.

Aside from the LIs V isn't doing anything crazy, V wakes up, goes to see a client about a mission that may lead to saving their life, and then goes on the first part of that mission.

It's what's implied happens between Mikoshi and that point in time which is the problem: V building a barrier around themselves (also implying it wasn't there before). Which is what causes the issues with most of the LIs in the first place. That's a choice the game forces on the player just to be able to kick them with it later.

Then of course, there's just the messages, I mean "Have a nice life". The shift in tone from the dialogue in the final mission is rather extreme. (Devil + return to earth has the same issue, for that matter). Substituting the Judy message with Takemura's when you go against Arasaka would have sounded about as nice.
 
It's some Grade A beef to have, though. Not having a sweet ending to fall back on for half the LIs is worth complaining about. If you're the kind of person that will pack bond with a Roomba or a rock with googly eyes (hello, yes, that's me) you probably care more about the characters in the video games than the plot itself. But when they take those characters and turn two of them into massive dinks in 2/3 endings (with the other ending being literally called Devil, implying it probably shouldn't be your safe harbor), it feels gross and grimy and really, really annoying. There's not really a sweet ending for River and Kerry to settle for the way people who care about the characters themselves can with Panam and Judy. I would have picked an ending that felt inconsistent with my V if it meant I didn't have to break up, pick a fight while I'm dying, or make all my friends except Goro hate me, except I can't because they didn't give me the option because the male love interests weren't written to have a vested interest in V's future beyond "hey wanna come to a birthday party/watch some TV shows?"

Hmmm, ok I get the complaint.
basically you would prefer the game be balanced around creating a fair and positive feeling for the players, than having the characters act more realisticly/consistent with themselves.

V isn't picking a fight, the LIs are picking a fight with V.

I think they asked themselves how the characters might feel in the situation.
For River, he always seemed a bit insecure, V seems like an amazing extraordinary person to him, and he didnt sound super confident on the roof. His framing was, do I have a chance? Not I'm confident you like me. He's afraid of losing V, due to illness, afraid this Rich powerful V might not want him, and afraid that he can't do anything to help V on this probably dangerous mission. However, after confronting V, he realizes he is being emo, and ends the convo on a positive note, I'll wait, and ill trust you will succeed, and I'll trust you still want me in your life. So he's not a complete jackass. Just a realistic human that gets insecure sometimes, and checks themselves after talking to their lover.

Panam and Judy get lucky, there's a path that V can choose that gives them everything they want, without anything that challenges their relationship. But thats fate, Aka the world that decided that. If the cure might possibly be in NCPDs evidence Vault, suddenly River would be central to Vs survival, If a rich executive who loves Samurai had it, Kerry would be the center. But that would be too convienent. In a well written world, the characters would have to adapt to larger events, not the other way around. The star ending is not the end of these relationships, just a bumpier Road.

honestly I found these characters compelling because they are different, with different intentions, and are written fairly consistently. Kerry is a slightly spoiled rockerboy artist type. River is an everyman with a code that wants to help the people of NC, when that has become a rarity, Judy is an escapist artist type driven by emotion, Panam is an optimistic short tempered do first, think later type.

Having to balance them to all offer similar qualities would not improve them. For example, some people say Kerry should be in the MS more, but part of the cool part about Kerry was he had a totally different focus, that wasn't about the worst parts of NC, or based on Surviving the countdown. Unfortunately this same quality makes it unlikely Kerry can do anything particularly helpful to V surviving.

As for the recordings, they are pretty similar for most endings, for most characters. They are voice messages. V is outside the network, either in space or in mikoshi, or in the badlands. Its not supposed mean V is being an ahole to them.


But I do get your complaint, its unfair. Not balanced, but I think the charachters story are better because they are more consistent, and if they really love V, and V survives, it'll work out in the end.
 
Hmmm, ok I get the complaint.
basically you would prefer the game be balanced around creating a fair and positive feeling for the players, than having the characters act more realisticly/consistent with themselves.
I'm not sure this is a good way to word it. My argument is it feels like they didn't create of a fair feeling for the players OR have the characters act consistent with themselves. It would have been just as easy for him to drop a hint that he was doing what he could to search for answers on his own, even if he's out of his depth (like his whole mission arc had him doing.) It's cute that he can be read as shy and a little insecure or intimidated, honestly, but that's not the only good things about his character and they've reduced him to a background character rather than an ally. Nothing in his mission chain showed him to be passive and hands-off when he sees injustice or friends/love ones in danger. Granted, he didn't get much screen time so it's possible to read him in a million different ways, but I felt like I had a good handle on the kind of character he was and he's not acting like they established his character in any of the endings but the short Devil phone call.

Panam and Judy get lucky, there's a path that V can choose that gives them everything they want, without anything that challenges their relationship. But thats fate, Aka the world that decided that. If the cure might possibly be in NCPDs evidence Vault, suddenly River would be central to Vs survival, If a rich executive who loves Samurai had it, Kerry would be the center. But that would be too convienent. In a well written world, the characters would have to adapt to larger events, not the other way around. The star ending is not the end of these relationships, just a bumpier Road.

Having to balance them to all offer similar qualities would not improve them. For example, some people say Kerry should be in the MS more, but part of the cool part about Kerry was he had a totally different focus, that wasn't about the worst parts of NC, or based on Surviving the countdown. Unfortunately this same quality makes it unlikely Kerry can do anything particularly helpful to V surviving.

That's just it, they didn't get lucky and it wasn't fate because they aren't real people. People brainstormed and outlined and wrote them specifically to play out this way, and it was wrote that way from the beginning where Panam and Judy are in main story quests that you can't progress the game without doing and the men are both in side quests. Kerry SHOULD be in the main story more because each sexuality only got one love interest and players shouldn't feel shafted because of their sexuality. I'm not sure why it's too convenient for either of the men to have even the slightest, tiniest interest in pursuing potential ways to help V survive.
 
Well yes, that's always the case in an RPG. If they wanted V to be a predefined protagonist then I guess they failed in properly defining them during the course of the game.

Before the endgame the game does a pretty good job providing the dialogue choices that would make sense, allow the players to ask the questions that would make sense in that situation and handle situation in a way congruent with the player's V. In other words, the ability to define their own V.
That kinda started showing cracks in the final Voodoo boys mission, when talking to Alt (I mean, who wouldn't have wanted to ask Alt, about Alt, instead of the fate of the Voodoo boys?) and it just gets worse in the endings, where suddenly your choices are curtailed to strictly get you to the point the writers want you to end up at.

Sounds like a "we ran out of time, so railroading it is" deal to me. It's just especially disappointing given the attention to not curtailing choice that was present earlier in the game.



Well, I've been pretty clear I think a lot of the ending slides don't match the endings they're on, and that, ignoring those, I could live with most of the endings, since they're all very much open-ended.
But it's not just the LIs though (though those are the worst offenders, due to the emotional investment, obviously), a non-LI related one that "doesn't fit" being the Mitch one in the Aldecaldos ending.



Of the four Judy bothers me the most, because 6 extra months isn't a long time, and she doesn't have any ties that force her to move (unlike Panam), or stay (River/Kerry). I've spent longer in a city I hated (that I wasn't even native to, unlike Judy) to be with a person I loved. And if I were dying anyway, I'd just pack my bags if it were such a big deal to them.

Sure, I'm not judy, but the way it was handled felt more like they had an outcome and then just "made it happen", regardless of how things played out.



People keep saying that last mission is about V's survival, but nothing I've found in game supports that (means I might've missed something, since this seems to be a general consensus). Mr Blue Eyes seems to imply it is about wealth, and V's response to that felt particularly defeatist, so can someone provide some (f)actual information to support the claim that the entire space mission is actually in any way to save V's life because everything I got from it was that it was just the biggest, baddest, heist that would burn V's name into history forever.



It's what's implied happens between Mikoshi and that point in time which is the problem: V building a barrier around themselves (also implying it wasn't there before). Which is what causes the issues with most of the LIs in the first place. That's a choice the game forces on the player just to be able to kick them with it later.

Then of course, there's just the messages, I mean "Have a nice life". The shift in tone from the dialogue in the final mission is rather extreme. (Devil + return to earth has the same issue, for that matter). Substituting the Judy message with Takemura's when you go against Arasaka would have sounded about as nice.


1) doesn't matter if V is predefined or not, even the cRPGs with the most choice only have 4-6 options per prompt, and are going to be severely limited in terms of the range of RP. And no, the game was always limited exactly as it was in the end, you were just luckier that your head cannon V had options that fit your idea of V.

2)Judy is being difficult, but, Judy has wanted to leave for months at that point, and has waited for V. Her declaration is more about V proving V is willing to sacrifice for Judy, and show Judy she is important to her. She is also driven by emotion, and her NC hatred is growing, her fear that V is gonna put her last, like Maiko, and even Evelyn.

3)V building a barrier is said by LIs who either are about to leave V, or worried about V about to go on a major multiweek mission. The LI's are saying how they feel, not what is. The game establishes early that everything you hear from a person in the game is thier perspective, not a statement of truth.

3) as glorious above said blue eyes says Vs entire motivation is for the slightest chance of survival. Which means blue eyes must be offering V that, in order to get him to take the mission. V reaffirms this when he says its not about the money or connections. I got nothing to lose, because unless V succeeds, they don't have much life left.

4)the voice messages are just voice messages. most of them are the same, or similar for most endings, depending on your relationship with that character. The LIs tend to have more, but yes Judy is a bit salty. Looking at Judy as a whole, she has the least faith in your relationship. She is going to believe it was doomed more easily than anyone else. Unless you do exactly as she needs, she is out. Panam is like we'll meet again, even in sun ending, River decides hes going to visit the nomads, And Kerry says he'll forgive him if he comes to NC. Judy, she makes her choice, but Judy, we know her history, I guess she is less trusting now.


Ok, what would you RP as the ending of Sun. given your GM says this.


After waking from mikoshi you shortly make contact with a man with glowing blue eyes, He offers a deal, he'll take most of this Arasaka tech off your hands, in exchange you and his forces won't have to fight to the death(he acknowledges even with clearly superior numbers, he might lose, looking at the carnage), in exchange for 40% of the profits, and a mutually beneficial working relationship in NC.

You just woke up, your not 100%, and you are clearly outnumbered
1)fight to death
2)make deal
3)tell blue eyes he can have it

4-8 weeks later you are well off, Blue eyes has found a slim hope, But it requires a dangerous mission, if you succeed, it will be epic, you would have the resources to do whatever matters most to you, and a small shot at survival on top of that. You are nervous and have been thinking about it the past few days. None of your other contacts has bore fruit, this might be your last chance to do something while still healthy enough to act.

1)refuse the deal
2)accept the deal

you wake up, you have a meeting with blue eyes, but you can sense your LI has something bothering them.


How would you RP this?
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I'm not sure this is a good way to word it. My argument is it feels like they didn't create of a fair feeling for the players OR have the characters act consistent with themselves. It would have been just as easy for him to drop a hint that he was doing what he could to search for answers on his own, even if he's out of his depth (like his whole mission arc had him doing.) It's cute that he can be read as shy and a little insecure or intimidated, honestly, but that's not the only good things about his character and they've reduced him to a background character rather than an ally. Nothing in his mission chain showed him to be passive and hands-off when he sees injustice or friends/love ones in danger. Granted, he didn't get much screen time so it's possible to read him in a million different ways, but I felt like I had a good handle on the kind of character he was and he's not acting like they established his character in any of the endings but the short Devil phone call.



That's just it, they didn't get lucky and it wasn't fate because they aren't real people. People brainstormed and outlined and wrote them specifically to play out this way, and it was wrote that way from the beginning where Panam and Judy are in main story quests that you can't progress the game without doing and the men are both in side quests. Kerry SHOULD be in the main story more because each sexuality only got one love interest and players shouldn't feel shafted because of their sexuality. I'm not sure why it's too convenient for either of the men to have even the slightest, tiniest interest in pursuing potential ways to help V survive.

You are right, River would love to help V, Thats what hes really asking for, but this is a solo mission involving huge probably criminal acts. What can he do? V has to go on a single person space ship and spacewalk to Crystal palace and break in.

Kerry is a rock star, not a fighter, he gets winded swimming from the boat. If V needs a rockstar (which he might if he makes it to Crystal palace, Kerry will definitely give it his all)

Judy also has no material way to help V in aldecado's ending, she's just a long for the ride.


Now I get that you are saying the writers could have created different scenario's with balancing LI involvement as a main design decision. Every LI could have been associated with a powerful faction that could be useful to Vs survival. Every Li could offer similar content, similar dates. But would this have been as compelling? I guess that depends on each player. There are advantages to this method, but there are disadvantages as well. I'd say endings or no, these relationships were pretty well developed for a game, for the most part. So I can't say this was a totally wrong decision.
 
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Now I get that you are saying the writers could have created different scenario's with balancing LI involvement as a main design decision. Every LI could have been associated with a powerful faction that could be useful to Vs survival. Every Li could offer similar content, similar dates. But would this have been as compelling? I guess that depends on each player. There are advantages to this method, but there are disadvantages as well. I'd say endings or no, these relationships were pretty well developed for a game, for the most part. So I can't say this was a totally wrong decision.

I don’t think letting certain characters be important in other people’s playthroughs would take anything from another player’s story. A possible disadvantage to the approach they took is putting out the (probably unintentional?) message that if you’re interested in the male love interests, you weren’t really the target audience. They have less content throughout the game, are further removed from V’s story in all the endings, and neither of them are main story mission characters. The game left me a lot more bitter than it would have if I had just romanced Judy, rather than it being about my V making the wrong choices morally or tactically.
 
Takemura also has a tonally weird ending -- it makes sense that he'd be pissed at you for bringing down Arasaka, for sure, but then what was the point making *saving* him a secret option if the result is just a silver lining for the Devil ending and a downer in the voicemails in the better endings? At first I thought it was interesting that you got a "reward" for deliberately disregarding not just Johnny but the quest marker, but as far as I know that idea only exists for this mission, so I guess it just ultimately exists to reinforce that you shouldn't go against Johnny.
 
Takemura also has a tonally weird ending -- it makes sense that he'd be pissed at you for bringing down Arasaka, for sure, but then what was the point making *saving* him a secret option if the result is just a silver lining for the Devil ending and a downer in the voicemails in the better endings? At first I thought it was interesting that you got a "reward" for deliberately disregarding not just Johnny but the quest marker, but as far as I know that idea only exists for this mission, so I guess it just ultimately exists to reinforce that you shouldn't go against Johnny.

Maybe in the DLC it’ll be the difference between fighting a real Takemura that you can convince not to kill you through his humanity vs. an engram or robo-Takemura that you have to put down through force Smasher-style.

But his voicemail broke my heart when I heard it the first time too, like c’mon man I thought we were buddies. We ate bad takeout together. :sad:
 
Takemura also has a tonally weird ending -- it makes sense that he'd be pissed at you for bringing down Arasaka, for sure, but then what was the point making *saving* him a secret option if the result is just a silver lining for the Devil ending and a downer in the voicemails in the better endings? At first I thought it was interesting that you got a "reward" for deliberately disregarding not just Johnny but the quest marker, but as far as I know that idea only exists for this mission, so I guess it just ultimately exists to reinforce that you shouldn't go against Johnny.

The point is that Takamura is a traditionalist and loyal to Arasaka above all else. Even if you save him, he can't see past his loyalty to Arasaka, even though Arasaka took advantage of him. I think he's supposed to be a statement on what corpo life does to a person, rather than saying you shouldn't go against Johnny.

Doesnt Takemura encourage you to trust Arasaka and go into Mikoshi, even though Arasaka already screwed him over once? He's effictively blinded by his loyalties.
 
Maybe in the DLC it’ll be the difference between fighting a real Takemura that you can convince not to kill you through his humanity vs. an engram or robo-Takemura that you have to put down through force Smasher-style.

But his voicemail broke my heart when I heard it the first time too, like c’mon man I thought we were buddies. We ate bad takeout together. :sad:
A meaningful boss fight where V has some kind of relevant relationship with the character instead of fighting them the instant V meets them? Too spicy

The point is that Takamura is a traditionalist and loyal to Arasaka above all else. Even if you save him, he can't see past his loyalty to Arasaka, even though Arasaka took advantage of him. I think he's supposed to be a statement on what corpo life does to a person, rather than saying you shouldn't go against Johnny.

Doesnt Takemura encourage you to trust Arasaka and go into Mikoshi, even though Arasaka already screwed him over once? He's effictively blinded by his loyalties.
I don't disagree with any of this, I think Takemura's endings are consistent with his character, so perhaps my original statement was worded a bit off. My confusion is with why, exactly, it's some secret bonus objective to save him. It's not some early game switcheroo to show you that maybe you shouldn't always just follow the quest markers, it's an end-game "secret" that requires you to disregard something that's been consistent the entire game. It's a meaningful difference from other marked side objectives, unless I'm missing something, and given that Takemura surviving doesn't lead to any revelations or realizations of themes that weren't already painted all over the game... what am I supposed to take away from the whole event?
 
My confusion is with why, exactly, it's some secret bonus objective to save him. It's not some early game switcheroo to show you that maybe you shouldn't always just follow the quest markers, it's an end-game "secret" that requires you to disregard something that's been consistent the entire game.

The same. Saving Takemura doesn't mean much, and choosing those 2 "correct" lines with Johnny doesn't add much either. So the secrets aren't that exciting -- they should be though?

Still, even if they offered 2 completely new endings for the cases above, I expect that the "bigger picture" (V still dying in 6 months and looking for the cure) would remain the same. Maybe that's exactly the reason they decided not to bother with more endings :shrug:
 
A meaningful boss fight where V has some kind of relevant relationship with the character instead of fighting them the instant V meets them? Too spicy


I don't disagree with any of this, I think Takemura's endings are consistent with his character, so perhaps my original statement was worded a bit off. My confusion is with why, exactly, it's some secret bonus objective to save him. It's not some early game switcheroo to show you that maybe you shouldn't always just follow the quest markers, it's an end-game "secret" that requires you to disregard something that's been consistent the entire game. It's a meaningful difference from other marked side objectives, unless I'm missing something, and given that Takemura surviving doesn't lead to any revelations or realizations of themes that weren't already painted all over the game... what am I supposed to take away from the whole event?

they have other objectives that are only listed once you trigger them, like the cop with the turtle, you have to do something, convo or computer before it becomes a side objective to check the grave, Meredith getting killed, a number of side missions that only appear if you are close, Skippy. Not everything is clearly labeled. And this is clearly supposed to be for players who want to go the extra mile for takemura.
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The same. Saving Takemura doesn't mean much, and choosing those 2 "correct" lines with Johnny doesn't add much either. So the secrets aren't that exciting -- they should be though?

Still, even if they offered 2 completely new endings for the cases above, I expect that the "bigger picture" (V still dying in 6 months and looking for the cure) would remain the same. Maybe that's exactly the reason they decided not to bother with more endings :shrug:

if you like takamura, its a pretty big deal, it also opens up different dialog and teamups in the final arasaka mission. And, if you saved him and didnt pick Arasaka, you get a new enemy who wants you dead.

What would you consider "meaning much"?
 
if you like takamura, its a pretty big deal, it also opens up different dialog and teamups in the final arasaka mission. And, if you saved him and didnt pick Arasaka, you get a new enemy who wants you dead.

What would you consider "meaning much"?

A new ending, just like I said. OK, Takemura doesn't have much influence in Arasaka -- but I'm sure you can come up with something story-wise to justify the extra effort.

Secret stuff in game is supposed to add value to the 2nd playthrough. And it would make sense if it's something positive, cause why go an extra mile to actually spoil the fun? What you get here is just...well, he's alive, OK.

Is that different dialogue and a different team up in exactly the same mission worth creating a new V and investing 30 hours into? That's weak.
 
they have other objectives that are only listed once you trigger them, like the cop with the turtle, you have to do something, convo or computer before it becomes a side objective to check the grave, Meredith getting killed, a number of side missions that only appear if you are close, Skippy. Not everything is clearly labeled. And this is clearly supposed to be for players who want to go the extra mile for takemura.
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if you like takamura, its a pretty big deal, it also opens up different dialog and teamups in the final arasaka mission. And, if you saved him and didnt pick Arasaka, you get a new enemy who wants you dead.

What would you consider "meaning much"?

Yeah if you REALLY like Takemura and drink the corpo kool aid, the Devil and going into Mikoshi is basically the best ending you can get. I personally don't like this path , but I know some people do.

Its not that different from getting the Star for Panam fans , except Takemura isn't a love interest. You get more dialogue, and get to team up.

There doesn't need to be a reason to save him, other than you like the character and want more stuff with him.

Similarly, if you really hate Panam, you can betray her to Saul and get a sweet car. Sure it locks you out of the Star ending, but, if you really hate Panam, why would you do that one? There isn't a real reason for this choice either, other than liking or disliking Saul/Panam.
 
they have other objectives that are only listed once you trigger them, like the cop with the turtle, you have to do something, convo or computer before it becomes a side objective to check the grave, Meredith getting killed, a number of side missions that only appear if you are close, Skippy. Not everything is clearly labeled. And this is clearly supposed to be for players who want to go the extra mile for takemura.
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if you like takamura, its a pretty big deal, it also opens up different dialog and teamups in the final arasaka mission. And, if you saved him and didnt pick Arasaka, you get a new enemy who wants you dead.

What would you consider "meaning much"?
Yeah if you REALLY like Takemura and drink the corpo kool aid, the Devil and going into Mikoshi is basically the best ending you can get. I personally don't like this path , but I know some people do.

Its not that different from getting the Star for Panam fans , except Takemura isn't a love interest. You get more dialogue, and get to team up.

There doesn't need to be a reason to save him, other than you like the character and want more stuff with him.

Similarly, if you really hate Panam, you can betray her to Saul and get a sweet car. Sure it locks you out of the Star ending, but, if you really hate Panam, why would you do that one? There isn't a real reason for this choice either, other than liking or disliking Saul/Panam.
I guess I don't really have a problem with any of this. Just kinda seems to me that when a point in the story coincides with a counterintuitive alteration of game mechanics, it should matter in some reasonably significant way instead of making the worst ending better and the better endings slightly worse.
 
I guess I don't really have a problem with any of this. Just kinda seems to me that when a point in the story coincides with a counterintuitive alteration of game mechanics, it should matter in some reasonably significant way instead of making the worst ending better and the better endings slightly worse.


uhhh do you like any character in the game?

would it matter if you could stop them from dying? Have more conversations with them? Have them accompany you on the final mission, and add them to the ending?

thats not reasonably signifigant?


I wish I could do the same thing for Jackie, or even tbug.
 
uhhh do you like any character in the game?

would it matter if you could stop them from dying? Have more conversations with them? Have them accompany you on the final mission, and add them to the ending?

thats not reasonably signifigant?


I wish I could do the same thing for Jackie, or even tbug.
I do unironically like Takemura, and it's cool that he's with you in the Devil, though the other endings all he does is yell at you and imply he's considered giving his innards an emergency evacuation (again, not necessarily a complaint, this is totally within his character). Feels off to go out of your way to make the punishment ending more bearable.
 
2)Judy is being difficult, but, Judy has wanted to leave for months at that point, and has waited for V. Her declaration is more about V proving V is willing to sacrifice for Judy, and show Judy she is important to her. She is also driven by emotion, and her NC hatred is growing, her fear that V is gonna put her last, like Maiko, and even Evelyn.

3)V building a barrier is said by LIs who either are about to leave V, or worried about V about to go on a major multiweek mission. The LI's are saying how they feel, not what is. The game establishes early that everything you hear from a person in the game is thier perspective, not a statement of truth.

You actually get to play some this, with the whole shower scene where V blatantly lies about things being fine after coughing blood, and then the repeated "I don't want to talk about this now"-deal.

Given what you bring up in #2 above I'd hardly blame Judy, but I do blame the writers for forcing that situation.

3) as glorious above said blue eyes says Vs entire motivation is for the slightest chance of survival. Which means blue eyes must be offering V that, in order to get him to take the mission. V reaffirms this when he says its not about the money or connections. I got nothing to lose, because unless V succeeds, they don't have much life left.

Think I'll have to replay that ending because that's absolutely not what I took away from that dialogue, to me it seemed Mr. Blue Eyes picked V because they indeed refuse to die, against all odds. But the dialogue, to me, very heavily implied the reward was material, to which V basically replies they don't care anymore at that point.

Why pick V? Because they have nothing to lose, but still refuse to let go of life. This, of course, heavily implies V played a certain way (solo Arasaka assault makes the most sense here, imho).
It would be just as reasonable to assume V just didn't want to lose themselves, and even if they are dying they basically reached that goal. There's no way for Mr. Blue Eyes to know this though (or for the player to RP that route, for that matter).


4)the voice messages are just voice messages. most of them are the same, or similar for most endings, depending on your relationship with that character. The LIs tend to have more, but yes Judy is a bit salty. Looking at Judy as a whole, she has the least faith in your relationship. She is going to believe it was doomed more easily than anyone else. Unless you do exactly as she needs, she is out. Panam is like we'll meet again, even in sun ending, River decides hes going to visit the nomads, And Kerry says he'll forgive him if he comes to NC. Judy, she makes her choice, but Judy, we know her history, I guess she is less trusting now.


Ok, what would you RP as the ending of Sun. given your GM says this.


After waking from mikoshi you shortly make contact with a man with glowing blue eyes, He offers a deal, he'll take most of this Arasaka tech off your hands, in exchange you and his forces won't have to fight to the death(he acknowledges even with clearly superior numbers, he might lose, looking at the carnage), in exchange for 40% of the profits, and a mutually beneficial working relationship in NC.

You just woke up, your not 100%, and you are clearly outnumbered
1)fight to death
2)make deal
3)tell blue eyes he can have it

4-8 weeks later you are well off, Blue eyes has found a slim hope, But it requires a dangerous mission, if you succeed, it will be epic, you would have the resources to do whatever matters most to you, and a small shot at survival on top of that. You are nervous and have been thinking about it the past few days. None of your other contacts has bore fruit, this might be your last chance to do something while still healthy enough to act.

1)refuse the deal
2)accept the deal

you wake up, you have a meeting with blue eyes, but you can sense your LI has something bothering them.

How would you RP this?

Again, you assume Mr Blue Eyes offers a possible solution, that is where we (possibly, see above) disagree, I don't think he did. And if he did then the LI responses make even less sense, though V sticking around in NC does make more sense in that case.

Even if you are in the client confidentiality-camp telling your LI you have a last ditch effort mission isn't exactly telling them much.

I do think we have reached the core of our difference of opinion here though: what we took away from the dialogue with Mr Blue Eyes. I'll go through that ending again, maybe It will make me change my mind.
 
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Again, you assume Mr Blue Eyes offers a possible solution, that is where we (possibly, see above) disagree, I don't think he did. And if he did then the LI responses make even less sense, though V sticking around in NC does make more sense in that case.

Even if you are in the client confidentiality-camp telling your LI you have a last ditch effort mission isn't exactly telling them much.

I do think we have reached the core of our difference of opinion here though: what we took away from the dialogue with Mr Blue Eyes. I'll go through that ending again, maybe It will make me change my mind.

I think Mr. Blue eyes is using V, since V is such a skilled merc, and V has nothing to lose. He may or may not have a solution. He is using the hope of a fix to get V to help him. V knows this, and that's why the dialogue plays out the way it does. (V sounds and looks super depressed in this ending to me)

Imo, In the Sun, V is desperate to live, and hes taking on riskier and more crazy jobs to have a chance to live, culminating in the Crystal Palace. In the process, he pushes his friends/LI' s away.
 
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