Well, there is Gary the prophet quest (The prophet song) about the Blue-eyed creatures, at the end, he seems to be taken by Blue-eyed people.
I think they could have handled the results of the rooftop decision better.
The endings did make sense in retrospect, someone else on here had a good post about how V's actions shift the power dynamics in NC, so this why for example you can't leave with the nomands in the Sun, or stay in NC in the Star. In the Sun, only V himself has the resources to save himself, and he has his own powerful contacts (Mr. Blue Eyes). In the Star the power goes to to the nomads so V has to go, or he is dead.
The problem is this is all only evident AFTER choosing a path, which kind of sucks. And like I said, I would have liked some more closure in all of the endings, especially Sun and Star. Oddly the 'worst' endings (Devil and pick Mikoshi and Suicide) have the most closure. Still overall, I loved the story and the themes (mortality, loneliness, friends,family, love) they presented. I am also a sucker for a good love story and Cyberpunk 2077 is probably the best love story I have ever experienced, so that is tilting my opinion a bit.
I haven't played in two months and I still think about the game almost everyday, I can't remember the last time I did that with a game, if ever.
I don't have a problem with that, but that's not really what I'm talking about. If you get the Sun ending your V is now a withdrawn asshole who has sacrificed personal relationships for personal gain (whether it's to be a legend or because Blue Eyes actually can offer you survival), regardless of what you did elsewhere in the game. If you get the Star ending V doesn't want anything to do with NC any more, regardless of what connections you might have to it. Which sort of brings me to...
There's absolutely a right way to play the game and it shouldn't have been an RPG in any sense if this is the story they wanted to tell.
I get what you are saying, but I think its kinda unlikely that a game should tell you the consequences of decisions before you make them. The game also has a very go and find it style of exposition, which loses a lot of players, But at the same time, avoids overloading players who don't care, and creates a different experience for people who do love finding stuff. One of the examples, is you can find out almost exactly what happened to Evelyn in clouds, and how the tiger claws reacted. You can figure out a lot more about who Evelyn teamed up with, what her probable plans were. Etc. But only if you really want to investigate.
This creates a lot of added value to all the quests. But it interestingly creates a different narrative for other players. Some might feel Evelyn was a Saint, or Yorinobu was powermad corpo, which creates a different user experience, without explicitly leading the players. One of the things I found really good about the writing is, Most of it is extremely well integrated into the world, and delivered extremely subtly. The world is very solid because of this. Quests we might think of as pointless kill quests, actually show the effects if Yorinobu's plans in action. A computer in one quest may explain why the Animals gang are doing specific Blue quests. Another quest shows why there is certain grafitti on the walls.
I personally think that method of exposition allows the main character to be deceived, or surprised, while at the same time other characters who may have been investigating, see the lies npcs tell, or predict an outcome. Or even investigate it after the fact, to find the dealer truth.
If I remember correctly the part with freeing of the engrams is connected with the destruction of Mikoshi: the engrams are not bound and imprisoned into Mikoshi anymore.
Just as V's engram the most engrams in Mikoshi, especially those of the rich and famous "Save your Sould"-customers, have no experience with surviving Cyberspace on their own, which is a dangerous place, especially behind the Blackwall, as Alt says. So yes, Alt absorbing the engrams has a protecting dimension. But of course by absorbing them they surely cease to exist as separate entities, Alt and the engrams should merge, so the integrity of the Alt-engram weakens as the integrities of every other engrams weakens as well. V became more Johnny-ish along the path and Johnny more V-ish, but actually both being one entity (until Mikoshi at Star/-Sun-/Secret- resp. operation at Devil endings). And so Alt would get more like the engrams and the engrams more of Alt, all in all getting something/someone (?) completely new, as the merged Delamains.
In the path of the Star ending, Panam asks V whether he trusts Alt. my V always answer "No". I have no tangible dialogue line, no proof, no nothing, but I simply don't trust her. So when she says that she thinks V should go with her, my V is on high alert. My guts tell me she wants to absorb him because of what she says when you talk to her during "We Gotta Live Together", when connected to the net with Dakota's equipment: she was very interested in the debate between Johnny and V. I think that is what she needs, since she found out to have lost something in the recent decades (that could very well feel like a billion years) as an AI: what it is to fight for sanity/personality integrity, the connection to a body, a connection to the real world and maybe, for future content, what it means to be a real person. She needs that debate so that this engram-mix she will become will stay at least a bit humanish, and V has shown with his debate with Johnny that he is capable of that, at least in Star and Secret endings (in Sun ending Johnny is talking with Alt, different thing there).
if the game wasn't an rpg, there wouldn't have been such a large difference in what each player gets out of it. You can play the game not involved in romances at all, you can play the game as an investigator, you can play the game as takemura's loyal friend. It can be a gripping love story. It can be a story of family. You can be a working merc, or ignore every grunt work quest
This game is extremely RPG. there Is no way it could be equal, or better with a fixed narrative. Being out of character for some players, in certain ending scenes(by interpreting tone of voice) doesn't negate a whole giant game of very strong RP elements.
In fact I think the times when it does get out of character are only so noticeable because players outside of specific scenes were allowed to freely act/rp
On the other hand the "debate" could be very interesting for Alt for a slightly different reason: to keep her integrity high enough even tho being merged with other engrams, so she will not loose herself but at the same time coming along with the other engrams. That's what V achieved with Johnny, too: get along together and stay V-ish and Johnny-ish at the same time.
Yes, I've said it before, but I don't think it should have been marketed as an RPG either. Its much more a linear story based game with a few branching quests. The writers clearly have a theme they want the player to get, and if you don't agree with it, or play your V that way, you won't like the story. I think the theme they were going for is that personal glory/going at it alone has a price (you can't have glory and friends since NC takes everything ), but their execution was a little clumsy.
If you loved Panam/The Aldecaldos and grew to hate NC, (as I did) - you probably loved the game. If you wanted to stay in NC and not be an asshole, you can't but that is by the writer's design. Life as top merc MAKES you push away your friends, you don't have time/room for them - you need to be ruthless/heartless to run the Afterlife. Look at Rogue, she is badass, but she seems sad to me. She clearly loved Johnny but both of them wanted glory over love so it didn't work out.
This is I think a lot of people's core issues with the game - they want to stay in NC with or without their LI and be happy, but the main theme of the game is you really can't do that. Wrong city, wrong people like Johnny said.
Tying all of the above to your rooftop decision though, is an issue. Like there is no way to determine that if you let Johnny take your body, you will become a withdrawn asshole, or you will be forced to leave if you call Panam. In retrospect the endings make sense, but they could have improved that a bit.
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Yeah I just think they could have given you something, idk, maybe not the entire consequence but there is a LOT riding on that rooftop phone call. It doesn't seem right that one moment changes the trajectory of V so much. Like you can be a compasisonate player who doesn't want to risk the Aldecaldos so you go with Rogue, but you still turn into an asshole, after that, even if you played the whole game differently up to that point. That is I think what the problem is.
Or you can be a badass merc who doesn't like the Aldecaldos but sees them as a means to an end, but still wants to run the afterlife. This is also where players have an issue - the game MAKES you leave.
I do think its interesting that maybe a half dozen of my friends have played it, and everyone has gotten something different out of the game. I think that says a lot as to how good the writing and branching storylines/dialogue options are.
Overall like I said though, I loved the game, the endings just needed some more nuance.
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I heard somewhere, outside of game, that part of surviving in the net as human AI, is
I don't think alt lies, but she perceives things a certain way. She also, I think, doesn't accurately perceive herself. She goes across the net just because she senses Johnny's thoughts. She actually is not opposed to helping V even before mikoshi promise, she just doesn't have the means. She is definitely losing her humanity in some ways, but is still herself in others.
I don't think she is simply consuming engrams, she never describes it this way, and she goes out of her way to say she believes in freedom. She says something to the effect of, better to be ripped apart beyond the blackwall free, than to be trapped. (I think this is if V has low net running ability) This highlights her values, as well as showing that an engram unassisted can easily be destroyed. Its also implied that she may have a ghost city for engrams in the oldnet. And there may even be a place where AIs are living in buildings and manufacturing. Also when Johnny accuses her of consuming , she basically says he cannot comprehend what she is talking about.
So, I don't think she is consuming them in the way people say, but she is losing a human perception, so I wouldn't trust her completely either.
I mean, it's not even about marketing, it's allowing you to do things that aren't contradictory to any theme inherently, but ultimately don't fit the story they want to force. If you like doing the romances and play a straight female V or a gay male V you are *incapable* of getting as "good" of an ending from the start, as you well know with your references to Panam.
I agree, but this is a testament to well written characters. The character Kerry would never want to leave NC, and River has roots there too. I didn't like the Star endings for Kerry or River, but they fit the characters.
The problem you mention could have easily been solved though with multiple LIs. You should absolutely be able to find SOMEONE that will leave with you. Maybe not someone who'd always stay, but for sure someone should leave and be happy with any V, regardless of gender/sexual orientation. This character would leave you in the Sun, but stay in the Star. I think the game needed a lot more romance options overall though, and more story with the ones we got, it was a big part of the game, and they didn't really do much after each LI's quest.
I wonder if one of these was originally Takemura, he said he'd dreamed of being a Nomad at one point. It seems totally out of character based on what we got, but that would have been one hell of a character arc, and would have fit the game's theme.
I think I reiterate this every time the LI discussions come up:
I don't want the LIs to change to suit the ending
I don't want the LIs to change to suit the ending
I don't want the LIs to change to suit the ending
I don't want the LIs to change to suit the ending
You wrote a 40k word fanfic about V and Panam. Why can't someone who wants that for River or Kerry be able to stay with them without NEEDING to become the big boss of NC?
River and Kerry don't have the resources to save V, if he stays, he has to save himself. The only way to do that is to run Afterlife and get some powerful contacts (Mr. Blue Eyes). But running afterlife is a lonely job, like I said before.
Are you looking for a live 6 months and then die in NC ending? You have that in the Devil if you go back to earth.
I disagree that it has only one main narrative experience,
or that you are an ahole in the Sun ending. I personally think your LI is the one with an issue, because the situation is a very tough one. Lets be 100% honest. Someone with 2-5 months to live should be allowed to be withdrawn for two days (Kerry explains its literally the last few days) without them being an "ahole". Or maybe because they are about to go on a life or death mission, and may never see the earth, or their friends/family/li again. There is very little given here to definitively say V has become a distant jackass, thats up to the player to insert their own understanding there. I agree its jarring, because the player doesn't understand the context, especially the first time. But its a time skip, kinda unavoidable
but I digress, my main point us the game has a lot of narratives, and whats so interesting about it, when you compare other people's playthroughs, Is they often think their narrative was the only real narrative, and the only way one can see the events.
I think its partially because of the immersion, trying to go against your natural tendencies is very hard for players. Its like I wanted to be an ahole to Judy and panam in one playthrough, but I just couldn't do it after the first mission. Likewise, some of the differences are caused by a different playstyle. Being a stealth player allows you to hear conversations, talk your way out of fights. Being a melee causes a lot less chaos in street fights. Refusing certain quests is huge. Ignoring Johnny subquests, and getting into fights with him totally changes the whole entire narrative.
To get the different experiences, you'd actually have to RP, and just play differently, and change your mental perspective. Like takamura quests play very differently if you think of him as a loyal friend, or as a corpo recruiter. Is panam a fiery ride or die, or immature. Is Evelyn your friend, or Was she going to sell you out. Is the corpo the stability in a sea of chaos, or the source of societal degradation. Is the game a mindless shooter, or deeply lore driven, depends how you played it. Depends what you bring into the game as a human. It is very subtle.
that said. sometimes subtly sacrifices clarity.
It's pretty clear you don't like the nomads or the story the game tells haha. I already said that having a correct way to play is a shortcoming that could be solved with more LIs. I'm not sure what else you are looking for.
I don't think she lies, too. But I still don't trust her. She lost too much in her existence as an engram, as you said some humanity.
Can't remember something like that at all. I will surely give it a look with my next playthrough sometime.
Exactly.
I'd argue the much bigger point why does my character get completely rewritten based on a mission choice. There's nothing RPG about that.
because different Loves, will have different challenges, based on the situation, some of which are outside of player control. Kerry is a Rockstar, Panam is a warrior princess. This means panam can command a kingdom for your benefit. But Kerry can get you backstage passes to the highlife, can serenade you on cruise ship. But he can't help you on a covert mission to break into a space station. And thats fine, because if you like Kerry, you probably like him because he is not a warrior prince.
the way the writers seem to design the story is what could this character do, in this situation. Not how can i write the Male LI into the Second ending.
Realistically, what could Kerry have done, either to find a cure, or on a James Bond mission. How might River have reacted knowing that he couldn't help V, or take part in an extralegal blackops merc mission that might lead to death.
the only way to give them a Panam like ending, would be to either change the world (v's condition and the available means to solve it) or the LIs themselves.
They could have wrote that V can find a cure by going on tour with Kerry, but let's be honest, thats a stretch, they would clearly be altering the world to fit the player.
It would be very easy to write fanfic about V and Kerry, after all he wants to perform at Crystal palace. Even if he can't be in on James Bond part, he could easily spawn a whole side story about space music love. River apparently wants to start a new non corrupt peacekeeping force, there are plotline threads for people to explore
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the ghost city I know of from outside game, though I think it might be a shard as well. The abandoned ai city is maximum Mike radio, its not tied to alt specifically to alt.
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Agreed
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Well yes and no. You're right: For 95% of the game, it was a great ride i really enjoyed. But the endings and the resulting state of the game spoiled it for me. It may be a little bit harsh to label it crap, but it's like a five course meal: If the desset is crap, the dinner is crap. Hope you get the point
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