[Spoiler Alert] About the endings

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Do you want more RPGs with happy endings?


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Ok, I get that you have a way of seeing things, it seems more like you are focused on the events, and associations.

But the flaw in the sun path is one of character motivation, and how player/V choices tie into the narrative.

Sun makes sense based on Concepts and somewhat on events. But not on charachter development/motivation/story.

Johnny is a legend, but Johnny's purpose was not being a legend. Johnny wouldn't logically run afterlife. Likewise a character who plays the sun ending,
is it reasonable to think they still want to be a legend?
Is it reasonable to think they would take over afterlife?
Does it tie into the character growth and themes that lead a player to unlock that ending?

The crux of The whole Johnny side story subplot, is being a legend isn't important. So whats the chance V, who experiences this story arc, or makes choices to do this type of content still wants to be a legend, or run afterlife? Will this story seem like the logical conclusion of someone reading this story?

Lets look at the progression.
V wants to be a successful mercenary(legend), V fails a big mission, losing everything, and everyone they value.

Turns out they got an entity(who is a legend) in their head and if nothing changes, they will die, or the entity will take over. V chooses to listen to the entity, and help the entity solve their regrets. Their regrets are, I treated my friends poorly, I never took the girl I liked/respected seriously, my best friend is suicidal, avenge who killed me, and wish I could play more music with the band. With a touch of survivor guilt for those who gave their lives for mine.

Then the entity helps V survive, with help from the entities friends. Is the logical end to this narrative, that V still wants to be a legend, and become the most powerful Fixer in town? Is it likely that a player/charachter who chooses to explore/experience the theme of regret, friendship, legendary life not being all its cracked up to be would actively seek these things?

These choices only makes sense if the point was that V learned nothing from their experience with the entity.

conversely, the choices that a Player/V made that lead to calling panam, line up very well with someone who feels a deep connection with panam. and identifies with her character arc of family being the most important thing. And does a bunch of things to help the aldecados.

Likewise someone who chooses to make a deal with Arasaka, will likely end up where they are in devil ending, saying the type of things you have the option to say/do there.


To me the sun ending makes sense as a sequence of events put V into that situation. But not really the I want to be a legend angle. And even event wise, it makes sense but its not explicit, Most players won't see a connection of why the choice to go with rogue/solo would lead them to having no logical alternative to becoming the leader of the afterlife.

However, V saying their goal is being a legend is not the only possible motivation they let V give voice to.
"Will this story seem like the logical conclusion of someone reading this story?" for me it made sense at least (I would say that for the story writer also, but we might wait till they do a "making of" or something like that).

Thats the clue I think "These choices only makes sense if the point was that V learned nothing from their experience with the entity."
When I was in my 1st playthrough in the rooftop my thought was "so calling Rogue?, you already know how it ends up + a run on Arasaka is mostly a suicide run-not in a videogame or in a tabletop, but objectively from V point of view is a suicide run- and if V needs to die, I prefer to die as V-Aldecaldos is also a suicide in the rooftop-".

You take a decision that is basically what "the legend" would have done (how much of this decision is V and how much of this decision is Johnny?, his overwriting you).

To end in sun basically you did things for Johnny and Rogue, if you still want to follow Johnny way then you didn´t learn anything-or you did and is what you want to be- and end up being a Legend. Afterlife is just the way that the story writers put "is where NC legends hang are remembered", they could have skipped the Afterlife in sun and just V in his mansion meeting with MBE; the legend aspect comes from the end run.

"And even event wise, it makes sense but its not explicit, Most players won't see a connection of why the choice to go with rogue/solo would lead them to having no logical alternative to becoming the leader of the afterlife." agree its not explicitly stated anywhere.

But I think, that if you look at this thread (maybe just sample across the pages) many people experienced the same surprises with "Devil" and "Star".

Some people choose trusting Hanako maybe because they trusted Takemura(or Hanako, or both) or they wanted to be "Corpo" figuring themselves working with/for Arasaka, others called Aldecaldo-some I guess because they didn´t felt connected with Johnny suggestions didn´t like Rogue, or they thought "I already saw 2013 and 2023 raids and I want to try something different- but where not expecting to leave Night City.
 
while nomad and corpo at least express own position
afterlife v hides motivation even from the player

endings contradict each other
when famous nomad hides from hunt the same legend chills in the mansion
only to discover that after leaving the body no one knows who attacked the tower
 
"And even event wise, it makes sense but its not explicit, Most players won't see a connection of why the choice to go with rogue/solo would lead them to having no logical alternative to becoming the leader of the afterlife." agree its not explicitly stated anywhere.

But I think, that if you look at this thread (maybe just sample across the pages) many people experienced the same surprises with "Devil" and "Star".

Some people choose trusting Hanako maybe because they trusted Takemura(or Hanako, or both) or they wanted to be "Corpo" figuring themselves working with/for Arasaka, others called Aldecaldo-some I guess because they didn´t felt connected with Johnny suggestions didn´t like Rogue, or they thought "I already saw 2013 and 2023 raids and I want to try something different- but where not expecting to leave Night City.

I don't think rooftop is in any way well implemented. However, while its atrocious that the game railroads paths in star/devil etc i'd suggest the vast majority of people can see breadcrumbs where if you say call the nomad leader(you may be shagging) that might be best route to nomad ending
Trusting Johnny/not wanting to kill friends becoming becoming a scumbag loner boss of afterlife simply doesn't have that in any shape or form
 

Guest 4412420

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V wants to be a successful mercenary(legend), V fails a big mission, losing everything, and everyone they value.

Turns out they got an entity(who is a legend) in their head and if nothing changes, they will die, or the entity will take over. V chooses to listen to the entity, and help the entity solve their regrets. Their regrets are, I treated my friends poorly, I never took the girl I liked/respected seriously, my best friend is suicidal, avenge who killed me, and wish I could play more music with the band. With a touch of survivor guilt for those who gave their lives for mine.

Then the entity helps V survive, with help from the entities friends. Is the logical end to this narrative, that V still wants to be a legend, and become the most powerful Fixer in town? Is it likely that a player/charachter who chooses to explore/experience the theme of regret, friendship, legendary life not being all its cracked up to be would actively seek these things?

These choices only makes sense if the point was that V learned nothing from their experience with the entity.
Not only that this would only make sense if V learned nothing but if Johnny also learned nothing and didn't grow as a person.

The only way to unlock the Sun and secret endings is by visiting the oil fields where Johnny's character development is put on full display. He admits he was a selfish bastard who used his friends and his only requests afterwards are to basically help him make amends to the last two remaining friends of his who are still alive. Rogue's quests, meeting Kerry and Samurai reunion (which he does for Kerry's sake) put emphasis on Johnny's interpersonal relationships, not on his role as one of Night City's legends.
 
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If you dislike the game it doesn't mean that other people should dislike it.
There are a lot of people disliking the game whether I do it or not. And a lot of people here invalidate me calling the game bad since they like it.
Hence my subjective/objective standpoint. It invalidates everyone's opinion focusing on what is, not what it could be.
 
Well said.

Not only that this would only make sense if V learned nothing but if Johnny also learned nothing and didn't grow as a person.

The only way to unlock the Sun and secret endings is by visiting the oil fields where Johnny's character development is put on full display. He admits he was a selfish bastard who used his friends and his only requests are to basically help him make amends to the last two remaining friends of his who are still alive. Rogue's quests, meeting Kerry and Samurai reunion put emphasis on Johnny's interpersonal relationships, not on his roe of Night City's legends.

I just can't make a connection how following a storyline that is all about Johnny's character development, can land V in a similar position Johnny used to be in pre-development.

it mostly only works if it isn't V's intention, but rather how people see them, and what they need to do to survive. Then its a sort of thing where the world sort of puts you into the position, And V has to roll with it.

I would say it was just an option they wanted to give the player, but its the least vague answer. So it looks like the other two options are the less developed ideas. This is probably why the no romance Sun epilogue plays better to me. A lot of the answers V gives in that argument feels like V is either unsure of the things they are saying, or trying to deflect and reveal as little as possible. Since the player is thrown back into the story with a lot of changes in the plot, it makes the player not understand V's perspective anymore.
 

Guest 4412420

Guest
A lot of the answers V gives in that argument feels like V is either unsure of the things they are saying, or trying to deflect and reveal as little as possible. Since the player is thrown back into the story with a lot of changes in the plot, it makes the player not understand V's perspective anymore.
I think this is another thing they could have handled better. V is our character and I really don't think that we should be left in the dark when it comes to V's perspective. We're mostly in the clear in the Devil and the Star endings but not in the Sun. So many things are far too vague for my liking. More often than not it feels that the whole "V is doing the Crystal Palace heist for a cure" is a hopeful interpretation not something that's as openly supported as it is in the Star ending.
 
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I think this is another thing they should have handled better. V is our character and I really don't think that we should be left in the dark when it comes to V's perspective. We're mostly in the clear in the Devil and the Star endings but not in the Sun. So many things are far too vague for my liking. More often than not it feels that the whole "V is doing the heist for a cure" is a hopeful interpretation not something that's laid out in the open, not like V explicitly saying they're going to try Panam's contacts to help them with their situation in the Star ending.

It seems like they wanted to make a lot of things mysterious and unknown. Or they really need the epilogue to happen far in the future, and couldn't explain all the decisions/events that lead to it.

Both kind of suggest this specific ending is more a teaser for a new story than wrapping up the story we played. But this makes the scene really hard to RP/play/understand, because its like you woke up but can't remember the last four months, and are trying to pretend to know whats going on, until you can figure out what happened. Which is a really weird situation to put a player in an rpg unless its literally the plot.
 
I think this is another thing they should have handled better. V is our character and I really don't think that we should be left in the dark when it comes to V's perspective. We're mostly in the clear in the Devil and the Star endings but not in the Sun. So many things are far too vague for my liking. More often than not it feels that the whole "V is doing the heist for a cure" is a hopeful interpretation not something that's laid out in the open, not like V explicitly saying they're going to try Panam's contacts to help them with their situation in the Star ending.
I think you're supposed to essentially take it as it's given like the others, and assume nothing weird is happening beneath the surface. It seems to me that the possibility of a cure in the Sun ending just exists as a thread they gave themselves to potentially continue the story, rather than something set as a deliberate teaser for a continued story. The tone of that entire ending is that V has given up on everything except making a name for herself, Blue Eyes slipping in the "you'll do anything to survive" feels like a severely understated last minute twist. It's a little bizarre.
 
So Ive finished CP2077 again , this time on obviously 1.22 version and Ive noticed that our last conversation with Vik has changed a bit.

I think before 1.21 or 1.20 you could ask him why he is watching rerun of a fight on computer when he knows what a score will be and he would answer something like he still likes to wonder what would it be if things would end differently.
This time his response was that he likes to think what mistakes one of a fighters made - cant remember exacl words but feeling was very different and focused more on rewatching a fight to learn from it and maybe use that knowledge and less about nostalgic groundhog day with a same hopeless outcome.

First option was very clear message that we play a game despite a fact that there is no hope for us. This time it kind of opens some way for interpretation if maybe V`s story is not finished definitely and there might be some way to win this fight. At least that was my impression. Anyone else noticed it?
 
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So Ive finished CP2077 again , this with obviously on 1.22 version and Ive noticed that our last conversation with Vik has changed a bit.

I think before 1.21 or 1.20 you could ask him why he is watching rerun of a fight on computer when he knows what a score will be and he would answer something like he still likes to wonder what would it be if things would end differently.
This time his response was that he likes to think what mistakes one of a fighters made - cant remember exacl words but feeling was very different and focused more on rewatching a fight to learn from it and maybe use that knowledge and less about nostalgic groundhog day with a same hopeless outcome.

First option was very clear message that we play a game despite a fact that there is no hope for us. This time it kind of opens some way for interpretation if maybe V`s story is not finished definitely and there might be some way to win this fight. At least that was my impression. Anyone else noticed it?
I have not already finish my full run in 1.22, but i remember quite well this dialogue. I would pay attention in few days ;)
(obviously in french version)
 
I have not already finish my full run in 1.22, but i remember quite well this dialogue. I would pay attention in few days ;)
(obviously in french version)
With "le" and "fou" I should have suspected it, but now that I have just heard that you were French (or at least French speaking)
It's especially nice on the English forum. Because we will admit it there are a lot more people than in the other languages. :beer:
 
It's especially nice on the English forum. Because we will admit it there are a lot more people than in the other languages.
Yep, i'm french with a little knowledge in english :)
And yes, i don't know if i'm almost alone to play CP in France (or if miraculously, the game have not problems/bugs in french version), but if others play it, they aren't on official forum, it's sur :(
 
That was me, not @Rawls . :)

But yes, it's a laudable goal. The game does largely follow that pattern, except I would say there's an additional choke point at the bottom. However, I think it's there for narrative cohesion, not to limit players' choices.

In the end, every juncture offers pathways forward that are uniquely presented and/or understood through player agency as well as their choices up to that point. Regardless of the "infamous" red chair scene, it doesn't alleviate nor negate the free-form gameplay and exploration of the world and the narrative throughout the body of the game. Nor does it negate meaning behind the choice the player makes at that point. Players will choose the final path based on their understanding of what is really going on, what is truly the most important thing, and why. They will have reached that understanding via the journey they took through the game and their subjective interpretation of the narrative.

In an ideal system, there would come a time in the narrative arc(s) that certain pathways close off completely, making everything that follows for that chosen path through the web exclusive and inevitable. However, if tackling that type of narrative structure and interactivity, I would not have chosen to rely so heavily on a cinematic approach for character and plot development, as the sheer amount of scenework that would need to be done to create individually cohesive arcs, while also delivering a balanced and well-paced narrative, would be literally insane. Rather, the game's story would be largely interpretaive or represented visually (e.g., The player opts to steal a magical idol from a bunch of orks. Rather than a dramatic, branching dialogue scene between you and the orks , which can result in a battle during which the town is attacked and razed...the player would simply arrive home from that quest to find the town already under attack. No dialogue. Just a battle and the realization that these are the same orks that you angered by stealing their magical idol. Whoops... Pathway sealed.)

And, as I've mentioned previously, a single playthrough using this type of approach would be extremely short. If I were going for 6+ unique endings with extremely unique gameplay experiences, then I'd estimate that each, individual playthrough would be about 10 hours long, tops. People that rushed through would probably get there in 4 or 5. That means: from character creation to ending credits, ~10 hours max. The game would based on replaying again and again as different characters. You would see parts of the world you would never be able to see as a different character that made different choices. So the story of this game world and its characters would be delivered through a multifaceted series for "short stories" which paint the unique struggles of different people, races, and cultures in different lights depending on who your character is at the beginning and the player's choice for why they do the things they do.

The game would then need to be marketed on replayability, not on expansive content that players would spend hundreds of hours in, bringing their characters to legendarily godlike status by the end. It would not work like an Elder Scrolls, Dragon Age, or Witcher title. It would be something new. Therefore, it would be a great risk. And there we go. It's still a business.

For my part, I think they did extremely well with the story. The characters are wonderfully colorful and nuanced. I do agree that parts can feel very abrupt, but it didn't ruin the experience for me. The "nexus" of choices players are offered for the endgame does not negate the why of the player making one choice over the other, so I'd argue that it absolutely does not invalidate the player's journey up to that point.

Nor does the relatively universal "tragic" ending. The story is a dramatic tragedy, not a dramatic comedy. Not liking that is fine, but I challenge people claiming it's "too dark" to find me a piece of classical literature that deals with "immortality" and also ends happily. We can search all the way back for thousands of years, across languages, cultures, and epochs. It's a dark topic. That's like arguing that a horror movie is bad because it was too scary at the end.

Personally, I didn't felt I had real choices at all. Everytime I would think of something, even logical, the game basically told me that I had only one way of advancing the story.
In the end, I wasn't immersed like in an RPG, more like watching the story like in a random adventure game.

About the ending, there is at least 2 major problems about it:
-As a game master, I cannot understand how you can auto-kill your players about a plot you forced on them. Personally I don't think I would ever play again with such a GM.
-The story itself have lots of missed opportunities to entirely either solve or avoid the problem entirely.
 
Personally, I didn't felt I had real choices at all. Everytime I would think of something, even logical, the game basically told me that I had only one way of advancing the story.
In the end, I wasn't immersed like in an RPG, more like watching the story like in a random adventure game.

About the ending, there is at least 2 major problems about it:
-As a game master, I cannot understand how you can auto-kill your players about a plot you forced on them. Personally I don't think I would ever play again with such a GM.
-The story itself have lots of missed opportunities to entirely either solve or avoid the problem entirely.

I don't think the ending is supposed to represent an auto kill, I think it is supposed be the end of one campaign, and the beginning of the next campaign.

it isn't a TT rpg totally, its just based on one. A certain amount of the narrative was always going to be fixed. There is no chance they would let you avoid the drama entirely. There would be no game otherwise. Well I suppose you could just make it to act two and just stop doing MQ. But even in a TTrpg, you can only end a campaign by engaging with the plotline. You might choose not to end the campaign, but you won't get an ending by doing that.
 
Is there any news regarding endings or DLC-s? Will we get to see our V and finish story? I really dont care about DLC if I dont see my V more...
 
Well like I was talking with my cousin about, the endings should have been with strings and what do you mean strings? well for exemple I wanted to Help Takemura-san since he saved me after Dex ''killed'' me but I did not wanted to fully committed with Arasaka, so it should be possible to at least go to the meeting with Hanako and helped Takemura and Hanako and after that you could instead of going to Yorinubu you instead diverge going directly to Mikoshi (since Hanako alrady told it was beneath Arasaka Tower) and doing so trigging, maybe the path of glory or another new ending (maybe Yorinobu flee or killed himself), not the Devil Ending but with Takemura still your friend because you kept the promise
That is the string I'm talking about: You are suppose to go to Devil Ending, but you take another action that make not going to the Devil as planned but to another one
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I don't think the ending is supposed to represent an auto kill, I think it is supposed be the end of one campaign, and the beginning of the next campaign.

it isn't a TT rpg totally, its just based on one. A certain amount of the narrative was always going to be fixed. There is no chance they would let you avoid the drama entirely. There would be no game otherwise. Well I suppose you could just make it to act two and just stop doing MQ. But even in a TTrpg, you can only end a campaign by engaging with the plotline. You might choose not to end the campaign, but you won't get an ending by doing that.
It has to be with some Rogue IA from the blackwall and finish V story on that Cliffhanger, it has to be.
 
Well like I was talking with my cousin about, the endings should have been with strings and what do you mean strings? well for exemple I wanted to Help Takemura-san since he saved me after Dex ''killed'' me but I did not wanted to fully committed with Arasaka, so it should be possible to at least go to the meeting with Hanako and helped Takemura and Hanako and after that you could instead of going to Yorinubu you instead diverge going directly to Mikoshi (since Hanako alrady told it was beneath Arasaka Tower) and doing so trigging, maybe the path of glory or another new ending (maybe Yorinobu flee or killed himself), not the Devil Ending but with Takemura still your friend because you kept the promise
If you don't go to Yorinobu, Goro will probably not be happy (and obviously become V's friend).
The first thing he said in Tom's Diner :
Goro : "I want to Yorinobu paid for his acts"
V : "You want to do justice, in Night City. Seriously ?"
Goro : "I want revenge, it will be much easier"

And if you destroy Mikoshi (it always happen when you go to Mikoshi with Alt's help), he probably didn't find it good.

Friendship with Goro without Devil ending, it's seem difficult in my point of view :(
I like him, pretty good character, but unfortunatly, we don't see the future the same way :)
 
If you don't go to Yorinobu, Goro will probably not be happy (and obviously become V's friend).
The first thing he said in Tom's Diner :
Goro : "I want to Yorinobu paid for his acts"
V : "You want to do justice, in Night City. Seriously ?"
Goro : "I want revenge, it will be much easier"

And if you destroy Mikoshi (it always happen when you go to Mikoshi with Alt's help), he probably didn't find it good.

Friendship with Goro without Devil ending, it's seem difficult in my point of view :(
I see your point, but it seems Takemura in this moment wants revenge on Yorinobu using V as witness on the murder, as I said before with the ''strings'' you already fufill this role on the Arasaka Meeting, the point is after that it is stated Yorinobu's betrayal already so instead of going face him you just go to Mikoshi like ''I plan to only help here but I will go under their nose on Mikoshi since the security will focus on Yorinobu leaving Mikoshi open!'' the idea is make them not knowing what I'm doing, to play above them not making they use me (And I kinda find very non sense in the 3 endings you can go to Mikoshi and with Arasaka you just flatline in the last minute..I mean you're ''locked'' to do this things, you cannot diverge if you wanted you know?)
 
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