[Spoiler Alert] About the endings

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Do you want more RPGs with happy endings?


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I see your point, but it seems Takemura in this moment wants revenge on Yorinobu using V as witness on the murder, as I said before with the ''strings'' you already fufill this role on the Arasaka Meeting, the point is after that it is stated Yorinobu's betrayal already so instead of going face him you just go to Mikoshi instead... I'm just saying that you are ''locked'' to do this things, you cannot diverge like ''I plan to only help here but I will go under their nose on Mikoshi since the security will focus on Yorinobu leaving Mikoshi open!''
Theoretically this is true, but to use Mikoshi (separate V from johnny) without Araska's help, you have to use Alt's version of the soul killer (So destroy Mikoshi).
Hanako knowing her father in Mikoshi, I doubt she appreciates it.
Goro being loyal to Hanako, Arasaka and he is soldier above all (since childhood), couldn't let this go :(

To be seen in the dialogs with Oda on the docks. if Goro had been ordered to cut off the head of Oda (his only friend), he would have done so without hesitation.
 
Theoretically this is true, but to use Mikoshi (separate V from johnny) without Araska's help, you have to use Alt's version of the soul killer (So destroy Mikoshi).
Hanako knowing her father in Mikoshi, I doubt she appreciates it.
Goro being loyal to Hanako, Arasaka and he is soldier above all (since childhood), couldn't let this go :(

To be seen in the dialogs with Oda on the docks. if Goro had been ordered to cut off the head of Oda (his only friend), he would have done so without hesitation.
Remember she already has her father in a chip! (because of the meeting) so he will not vanish. As for Alt who will know that it was V who put her in there? Since we go under their noses we can make an excuse. We can add another situation like if you go to Mikoshi and not talk to Takemura he can go alone and Kill Yoribuno that would change a lot of thigs right? hehe
 
Yes for the chip ;)
But if Alt help for Mikoshi, she destroy it (it's her condition for her help...she helps not out of kindness, nor for the beautiful eyes of V, only for destroy Mikoshi).

Even in stealth mode, it wouldn't take long for Hanako to trace back to V (he is one of the only ones who know and need to get there) for the destruction of Mikoshi (and all the engrams of the people who paid a fortune for it).

And Goro couldn't kill Yorinobu. Hanako said to us to not kill him and Goro is an Arasaka's soldier... He would never disobey that order (that's why he doesn't follow V at the end) :(

But like you said, it's a game, it's a story, there is always a way do it :)
 
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Yes for the chip ;)
But if Alt help for Mikoshi, she destroy it (it's her condition for her help...she helps not out of kindness, nor for the beautiful eyes of V, only for destroy Mikoshi).

Even in stealth mode, it wouldn't take long for Hanako to trace back to V (he is one of the only ones who know and need to get there) for the destruction of Mikoshi (and all the engrams of the people who paid a fortune for it).

And Goro couldn't kill Yorinobu. Hanako said to us to not kill him and Goro is an Arasaka's soldier... He would never disobey that order (that's why he doesn't follow V at the end) :(

But like you said, it's a game, it's a story, there is always a way do it :)
He said he couldn't enter the room with V because he would kill Yorinobu, so he can do it.... and I doubt she would find out since Alt breaks everything in the net there, probably the Soulkiller things would happens in milisecs for anyone discover after I suppose.
 
ressurecting this because I have some slightly different overall perspective on these endings.

Watched a streamer end the game, and their reaction.

And, I don't think the endings Overall, are improving the gameplay experience.

I like the game a lot, it has a lot of strengths, a lot of content, and mostly integrates the player character and a narrative well, it generally does make you feel things, And immerses you in the experience.

But the endings, based on threads here, and other feedback, are generally not keeping people engaged. In short the games is good inspite of the endings, not because of them.

There isn't enough endings, or variation in the framing of the endings to house the variation in character development up to that point.

The timeskip on most endings is too vague, and too much has happened with very light explanation, this is most noticeable in the sun ending. Which puts you in a V 2-3 months later pretty far from all context of the V played up to that point.

Overall the game seems to express that the only goal of merit is to run away from Night city.

And yeah, the endings are too negative, if not in content in general framing. It seems to tell most of the players, there is nothing for you. This world itself is not something worth experiencing, only escaping.

I wouldn't expect changes in this release, but going forward, you need a better balance of success and failure, positives in the negative. Or a purpose. or hope.

You probably built the nomad ending for this purpose, but it spits on every experience and character you became close to in NC. How can a player look forward to replaying/coming back for dlc or sequels when you suggest there is nothing of value in NC.

Pondsmith built cyberpunk partly because Roy batty's experience needed some balance, in his opinion. And thats what the endings are missing. Its not just the 6 months thing, its the lack of hope, purpose, the losses with no gains.

if you want this to be a franchise game, it needs to give the player a reason to come back to it, and engage more fully. It works for some, but for many you didnt give them enough. You made them believe the world of cyberpunk has no satisfaction within it. So even if they appreciate the game, will they be excited to stay engaged?

Also, Adam smasher was not an entertaining final battle, gameplay wise or thematically/narratively. And you should probably label normal as easy. Gameplay wise it does not offer a compelling experience.


I still think its overall a great game, and a decent piece of creativity, but I think you may be leaving too many players bitter or with little reason to stay engaged. keep that in mind going forward, I think.
 

Guest 4412420

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Oh wow, that's quite the change in perspective. Can't say I have too much to add because I agree with your points.

I hate to sound like a salt-miner but it feels like the nomads were the favorites and I wish they were more subtle about it. I don't think I need to say that favoritism, to the point where it can feel that the narrative itself favors them, is never a good thing. I'm not trying to accuse them of anything and inherently there's nothing wrong with having favorites, everyone has them. However, it's not a good sign when people who prefer other things feel that their experience is lesser because they don't share that preference.

The Star ending is so hopeful: the swallow, Misty's tarot reading, emphasis on family and friendships. No other ending has this. No hope symbolism, Misty's readings are far from positive or describe the "blaze of glory" and it's blatantly clear that chasing glory is a self destructive path. No emphasis on family or friendships because V has no time for them and there's nothing we can do about it.

Even the losses you take in this ending are some nomads you barely interact with. Saul being an exception but even with Saul, we never get to see him as a person. Not in a way we can see Rogue or Takemura, so his loss doesn't hit the player as hard.
 
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Oh wow, that's quite the change in perspective.

Can't say I have much to add because I agree with your points. These in particular:





The latter two points are pretty much one of the few main issues I have with the endings.

I hate to sound like a salt-miner endlessly shoveling salt but to me it feels like the nomads (one in particular) were the favorites and they failed to be subtle about it. I don't think I need to say that such an obvious favoritism, to the point where it can feel that the narrative itself favors them, is never a good thing. I could be completely wrong, of course, but this is the impression I was left with.

Edit: To further expand on this. The Star ending is so full of hopefulness: the swallow, Misty's tarot reading, emphasis on family and friendships. No other ending has this. No hope symbolism, Misty's tarot readings are not positive or describes the "blaze of glory" and it's blatantly clear that chasing glory is a self destructive path. No emphasis on family or friendships because V has no time for them for whatever reason and there's nothing we can do about it.

Even the losses you take in this ending are that of some random nomads you barely interact with. Saul being an exception but even with Saul, we never get to see him as a person. Not in a way we can see Rogue or say... Takemura, so his loss doesn't hit hard.
Totally agree, people who prefer to stay in NC shouldn't be punished for this. The endings are already bitter enough because V doesn't find the cure. I still feel my V as overwritten at the Sun ending and this feels totally weird comparing the rest of the game.
 
ressurecting this because I have some slightly different overall perspective on these endings.

Watched a streamer end the game, and their reaction.

And, I don't think the endings Overall, are improving the gameplay experience.

I like the game a lot, it has a lot of strengths, a lot of content, and mostly integrates the player character and a narrative well, it generally does make you feel things, And immerses you in the experience.

But the endings, based on threads here, and other feedback, are generally not keeping people engaged. In short the games is good inspite of the endings, not because of them.

There isn't enough endings, or variation in the framing of the endings to house the variation in character development up to that point.

The timeskip on most endings is too vague, and too much has happened with very light explanation, this is most noticeable in the sun ending. Which puts you in a V 2-3 months later pretty far from all context of the V played up to that point.

Overall the game seems to express that the only goal of merit is to run away from Night city.

And yeah, the endings are too negative, if not in content in general framing. It seems to tell most of the players, there is nothing for you. This world itself is not something worth experiencing, only escaping.

I wouldn't expect changes in this release, but going forward, you need a better balance of success and failure, positives in the negative. Or a purpose. or hope.

You probably built the nomad ending for this purpose, but it spits on every experience and character you became close to in NC. How can a player look forward to replaying/coming back for dlc or sequels when you suggest there is nothing of value in NC.

Pondsmith built cyberpunk partly because Roy batty's experience needed some balance, in his opinion. And thats what the endings are missing. Its not just the 6 months thing, its the lack of hope, purpose, the losses with no gains.

if you want this to be a franchise game, it needs to give the player a reason to come back to it, and engage more fully. It works for some, but for many you didnt give them enough. You made them believe the world of cyberpunk has no satisfaction within it. So even if they appreciate the game, will they be excited to stay engaged?

Also, Adam smasher was not an entertaining final battle, gameplay wise or thematically/narratively. And you should probably label normal as easy. Gameplay wise it does not offer a compelling experience.


I still think its overall a great game, and a decent piece of creativity, but I think you may be leaving too many players bitter or with little reason to stay engaged. keep that in mind going forward, I think.
I am curious which streamer you watched. Sounds like an interesting watch. I personally saw Luke Stevens and Liara K play the game and the issues with aspects (especially the endings).

But I agree.

I think what you are saying is more magnified if you have any other relationship but Panam (or Judy if take nomad ending) - everything else leads to the I had no choice/ my choices didn't matter/ no matter what I do bad x, y, z happens and youre single, alone, and still dying.

Frankly, the numbers of people playing it keep dropping as compared to older RPG's even super light RPH / action adventure

When little you do matters, and all roads leads to a very unpleasant visit to Rome, and hope is incredibly scant - there is less reason to return. Or Care. Then Apathy sets in - and that is death to being engaged with the product/art.

My quibble would be disagreeing on great/very good game - but art, and creative works, will always be subjective.

For them to build on this game success, leaving aside releasing issues, they need far more people like YOU, and far less of people like me saying it was MEH/decent and pointless to replay
 

Guest 4412420

Guest
I wouldn't expect changes in this release, but going forward, you need a better balance of success and failure, positives in the negative. Or a purpose. or hope.

You probably built the nomad ending for this purpose, but it spits on every experience and character you became close to in NC. How can a player look forward to replaying/coming back for dlc or sequels when you suggest there is nothing of value in NC.

if you want this to be a franchise game, it needs to give the player a reason to come back to it, and engage more fully. It works for some, but for many you didnt give them enough. You made them believe the world of cyberpunk has no satisfaction within it. So even if they appreciate the game, will they be excited to stay engaged?
If every character in Night City was shown as a deceitful back-stabber, then I'd understand the endings being what they are now, but that's not the case. The game shows that there is goodness and selflessness NC but running away with the nomads is still treated as the best option. Why? The importance of family and friendship doesn't lose its meaning if you choose to stay in Night City but those same people (friends and family) that are treated as important with the nomads are devalued in other endings. Why?

None of us here want for the game to bend over backwards to accommodate our obscure headcanons. What we wanted was for the "good" endings to be more equal in tone. People who didn't pick the nomads shouldn't feel like their experience is worse for it.
 
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Just a word for me (and Judy).

Judy is planning to leave NIght City no matter what, so apart from Star Ending, she's leaving and it seem logic to my point of view...
Devil > She's leaving.
Sun > She's leaving - Even more, she doesn't want see me to risk what is left of time to live to become a legend.
Bullet in a head > She's leaving obviously.
Johnny back to Mikoshi > She's leaving obviously.

In my point of view, the game doesn't push me to leave with Aldecaldos, my V push me to leave Night City with Judy.
(if there was a "leave Night City with Judy to go to Oregon" ending, this is the one my V would choose)

But I'm probably not in the best position to express myself on the endings :)
 
Just a word for me (and Judy).

Judy is planning to leave NIght City no matter what, so apart from Star Ending, she's leaving and it seem logic to my point of view...
Devil > She's leaving.
Sun > She's leaving - Even more, she doesn't want see me to risk what is left of time to live to become a legend.
Bullet in a head > She's leaving obviously.
Johnny back to Mikoshi > She's leaving obviously.

In my point of view, the game doesn't push me to leave with Aldecaldos, my V push me to leave Night City with Judy.
(if there was a "leave Night City with Judy to go to Oregon" ending, this is the one my V would choose)

But I'm probably not in the best position to express myself on the endings :)
Yes, and some people want to stay in NC only because of the LIs. They shouldn't feel punished because of that.
 
I continue to find how people respond to the endings really interesting.

Personally, I'm a big believer in satisfying *narrative* rather than investing in specific characters' outcomes, and I think CDP put an insane amount of work in the game into trying to make sure the game's philosophies were clearly articulated and lined up (e.g. the jaw-dropping amount of exploration on the nature of the soul, consciousness, the transient nature of corporeal life).

I want characters to be true *to themselves and what the story has been trying to say*. That is what makes me really respect a story, whether it's in a book, a movie or a game, and that (to me) is what elevates a narrative from entertaining trash to art.

Against that background, I actually hate the Nomad ending. It is the one ending, to my mind, that betrays the character of V (if you play V as good) and goes all out to deliver a Michael Bay movie dumb happy ending.

I cannot accept that a V who has learnt everything he (or she) has learnt would allow the Nomads -- who are on the whole a bunch of ill-equipped amateurs -- to embark on what is certain to be a suicide run for some of their number, *purely for the purpose of trying to save V's life*. It is selfish, it is morally indefensible and, worse, no one's really sure that V's life can even be saved and the very idea that V would be able to take down the entire security forces of Arasaka is so patently ludicrous that a clear-headed V would know he's more likely to fail than succeed.

So, Michael Bay style, if you take the Nomad ending you're saying that any character who isn't played by a movie star can just die and who the hell cares because happy ending yay.

To be fair, the writers do seem to have recognised that this could be an issue and added in the sticking plaster that the Aldecados can get weapons and blah blah from the raid and wouldn't that be nice. But it *is* a sticking plaster attempting to cover over what, in moral terms, is a Grand Canyon-sized hole.

It's not what the game has been trying to say up to that point -- at all -- and I felt it cheapened the experience.

But then, my two favourite endings for delivering a satisfying narrative resolution were actually suicide and secret + giving Johnny the body. They felt right in terms of giving the characters agency, consciousness and character evolution. They're the endings in which the characters take on board the game's themes and shoot them through the hoop.
 
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I can extend my point of view about the endings. But I know it could be not shared by most (or by anyone...) :)
- Devil :
It seems that from the start of the game, it's the ending that seems logical and the easiest. But as time goes on, I understand that Arasaka will remain Arasaka. Saburo / Hanako don't care about V and just use him to achieve their goal. No need to talk about Oda who would kill you if he was ordered to (which he is trying to do). You could say that Goro is raising the level, but at first he's going to kill you (or hand you over to Yorinobu). The only thing stopping him is that Yorinobu decided to kill V / Goro. With Oda, Goro confesses that he would kill his best friend if he was ordered to... so V... For me, he is a "false" friend, like all the rest of Arasaka, he is just serves as V. In the end, for me, this ending can't be happy no matter what.
- Sun (V comeback) :
Despite everything that has happened, V still wants to become a legend and decides to spend what remains of his life trying to become a legend. To me, it seems pretty amazing as a decision (after everything that has happened before). And obviously, Panam and Judy leave Night City as planned... Panam because the whole family has to leave Night City no matter what and Judy because she made her decision in Laguna Bend (or if Romance, doesn't want to to suffer the dream of V who wants to become a legend...) In short, V wants to live his dream of greatness (selfishly), whatever the consequences... so yes, it can be experienced as "sad".
- Star :
Well I'm not going to expand since everyone or almost everyone thinks that this is the end that pushes the game to follow. Even more obvious if there is romance with Panam or Judy.
- Johnny comeback to Mikoshi :
I see it as a "happy" ending. Why ? Because despite the fact that V sacrifices himself for johnny, V has achieved the feat of changing someone like johnny. Who at the beginning hates everything and everyone, uses/manipulates all those friends, for whom the end always justifies the means... someone particularly hateful in someone who recognizes these past mistakes and who does not intend to waste the time that V offered him... and which will spend them just to live... A little moral to that, everyone can change, even the worst of all.
- Bullet in the Head :
Well, no need to talk about, V leave this all of this mess and it could seem good to not sacrifice anyone for solve his problem.

I hope, it make sense, it's difficult to fully expose that in english... :)
 
I continue to find how people respond to the endings really interesting.

Personally, I'm a big believer in satisfying *narrative* rather than investing in specific characters' outcomes, and I think CDP put an insane amount of work in the game into trying to make sure the game's philosophies were clearly articulated and lined up (e.g. the jaw-dropping amount of exploration on the nature of the soul, consciousness, the transient nature of corporeal life).

I want characters to be true *to themselves and what the story has been trying to say*. That is what makes me really respect a story, whether it's in a book, a movie or a game, and that (to me) is what elevates a narrative from entertaining trash to art.

Against that background, I actually hate the Nomad ending. It is the one ending, to my mind, that betrays the character of V (if you play V as good) and goes all out to deliver a Michael Bay movie dumb happy ending.

I cannot accept that a V who has learnt everything he (or she) has learnt would allow the Nomads -- who are on the whole a bunch of ill-equipped amateurs -- to embark on what is certain to be a suicide run for some of their number, *purely for the purpose of trying to save V's life*. It is selfish, it is morally indefensible and, worse, no one's really sure that V's life can even be saved and the very idea that V would be able to take down the entire security forces of Arasaka is so patently ludicrous that a clear-headed V would know he's more likely to fail than succeed.

So, Michael Bay style, if you take the Nomad ending you're saying that any character who isn't played by a movie star can just die and who the hell cares because happy ending yay.

To be fair, the writers do seem to have recognised that this could be an issue and added in the sticking plaster that the Aldecados can get weapons and blah blah from the raid and wouldn't that be nice. But it *is* a sticking plaster attempting to cover over what, in moral terms, is a Grand Canyon-sized hole.

It's not what the game has been trying to say up to that point -- at all -- and I felt it cheapened the experience.

But then, my two favourite endings for delivering a satisfying narrative resolution were actually suicide and secret + giving Johnny the body. They felt right in terms of giving the characters agency, consciousness and character evolution. They're the endings in which the characters take on board the game's themes and shoot them through the hoop.

my point isn't really that the nomad ending is great, but rather that the nomad ending is the only one with good and bad in it. And also that they basically wrote 3 endings for V that are all supposed to represent vastly different charachter/narratives for V. However the game that people played up to that point is not well represented.

in the rogue path ending, which requires you to form a friendship with Johnny, Rogue dies, Johnny disappears/dies, V is dying, V's loves are either leaving or not in a great position, they are the closest to death. The silver lining is probably supposed to be that you are a legend, but they dropped that story beat with Jackie, so its weird it comes back up since narratively it hasn't been suggested to be your motivation for most of the game at that point. And V doesn't seem to be enjoying being a legend, or financial success at that point. The better version is secret, with no LI, but thats mostly because there is less narrative, allowing you to more easily fill in your own, and rogue lives.

This ending has no good in it really, no balance, and V seems to have no reason for existing. Its basically best used as an ending which says nothing much about V, if you choose the vaguest options.

The devil ending narratively makes sense, but its designed to be painful(which is fine) and generally represents V making a bad choice. This is not how most players are expected to finish the game.


So many people who finish the game will be unsatisfied. Or feel like the goal is to get out of the game world. The journey is well done, and there is a lot to experience in NC, but generally the epilogue is a bad culmination of that experience. It seems like for many players it would literally be better to end the game after the mikoshi choice, with a still image with one caption or just nothing at all. And that means its not doing anything good for the game. Now, its art, and satisfaction may not be the goal, but seeing 10-20% of the people who finished the game decide its too depressing or they have no reason to engage further with the franchise, or just generally unsatisfied.

I'm an example of someone who thinks the game is overall a success, I understand the logic of each ending, the possibilities, and subtext, but I can't say for any of my playthroughs, the epilogues themselves enhanced any narrative I built up to that point. Mostly they had clues and interesting perspectives on certain characters at best.

maybe the Johnny ending, slightly enhanced that narrative, though its kinda rough to see Johnny give up on fighting for what he believes in. This ending also implies the real moral is to give up on NC/nothing really matters.


maybe the crunch in development was so hardcore the dev team could only see escaping the world of cyberpunk as a win, and only resonate with leaving it all for their families.
Post automatically merged:

I can extend my point of view about the endings. But I know it could be not shared by most (or by anyone...) :)
- Devil :
It seems that from the start of the game, it's the ending that seems logical and the easiest. But as time goes on, I understand that Arasaka will remain Arasaka. Saburo / Hanako don't care about V and just use him to achieve their goal. No need to talk about Oda who would kill you if he was ordered to (which he is trying to do). You could say that Goro is raising the level, but at first he's going to kill you (or hand you over to Yorinobu). The only thing stopping him is that Yorinobu decided to kill V / Goro. With Oda, Goro confesses that he would kill his best friend if he was ordered to... so V... For me, he is a "false" friend, like all the rest of Arasaka, he is just serves as V. In the end, for me, this ending can't be happy no matter what.
- Sun (V comeback) :
Despite everything that has happened, V still wants to become a legend and decides to spend what remains of his life trying to become a legend. To me, it seems pretty amazing as a decision (after everything that has happened before). And obviously, Panam and Judy leave Night City as planned... Panam because the whole family has to leave Night City no matter what and Judy because she made her decision in Laguna Bend (or if Romance, doesn't want to to suffer the dream of V who wants to become a legend...) In short, V wants to live his dream of greatness (selfishly), whatever the consequences... so yes, it can be experienced as "sad".
- Star :
Well I'm not going to expand since everyone or almost everyone thinks that this is the end that pushes the game to follow. Even more obvious if there is romance with Panam or Judy.
- Johnny comeback to Mikoshi :
I see it as a "happy" ending. Why ? Because despite the fact that V sacrifices himself for johnny, V has achieved the feat of changing someone like johnny. Who at the beginning hates everything and everyone, uses/manipulates all those friends, for whom the end always justifies the means... someone particularly hateful in someone who recognizes these past mistakes and who does not intend to waste the time that V offered him... and which will spend them just to live... A little moral to that, everyone can change, even the worst of all.
- Bullet in the Head :
Well, no need to talk about, V leave this all of this mess and it could seem good to not sacrifice anyone for solve his problem.

I hope, it make sense, it's difficult to fully expose that in english... :)

but at what point after the heist has V expressed the desire to be legend, that it makes sense thats the purpose of the sun narrative? In this sun path does V seem happy about being legend, does V seem to care anything at all for success, or life?

Is Johnny giving up on changing the world/reaching people actually growth? Is Johnny losing his chaotic fire good? I like him teaching the youth, and taking a more measured approach with the kids family, but is not caring what the corpo does in a world falling into ruin really actually a good thing? Its nice he gives the kid a guitar, but the world the kid lives in is still probably going to spit him out. This ending is ok though, and understandable I'd give it a passing grade, as the Johnny retiring from the world.


really though, I'm just saying I think that many people, not necessarily me, disengage after experiencing the ending, believing there's no reason to continue to engage with cyberpunk, even if they enjoyed the game up to that point. They don't play the other content, and are not looking forward to dlcs or expansions, or feel satiated. Thats not really a great outcome. And its not even just about V being sick, or losing. Many games and fiction have the protagonist in similar states, but it feels worthwhile, or expressive. The epilogues just aren't achieving what they needed to achieve for a significant amount of players.

I'm not even saying my analysis of why is correct, but that it happens is shown, and thats something the devs/writers need to figure out going forward. Maybe they got a plan. I don't really want them to just paint happy endings to satisfy fan service, but I think something went wrong here. The game narrative plays better if you turn off your game after mikoshi choice I think.
 
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Guest 4519094

Guest
three small things since nice and smart people have decided to open up a bit on their opinions :

Despite what many want to erase from history, 2020 was one of the worst years in living memory and writing a story that fails to take that into account would have very probably been perceived as very tone deaf and yet another avenue of attack for the likes of bloomberg game "journalists", corporate optimism is an industry though so it won't be long before 2020 is hailed as a great year "for the economy" and anyone who didn't register bonus earnings in one of the most dystopian times in human history branded as "just not fit for survival", and that's the first point.

Second point is a reiteration, you can happily stay in NC if you romanced Kerry or River you can even choose to not get Rogue killed, some would even say too happily, maybe the complaints come from the low number of people who romanced those two as referenced in the numbers thread.

Finally the interesting bit, about how we're supposed to feel about Night City living in it or leaving it and the same for the devs, from the many "Broken" tags all over the city to the "we're so fucked" punctuating the end of the last advert they released before the game's release, funnily enough this point will tie the two first with it,
as how you feel about where you live in the real world and your capacity to affect it is something everyone feels ... and only some feel entitled enough to complain when things don't go their way and screw the rest !! Fortunately not everyone with a voice is like that ;)
 
Regarding
my point isn't really that the nomad ending is great, but rather that the nomad ending is the only one with good and bad in it. And also that they basically wrote 3 endings for V that are all supposed to represent vastly different charachter/narratives for V. However the game that people played up to that point is not well represented.

in the rogue path ending, which requires you to form a friendship with Johnny, Rogue dies, Johnny disappears/dies, V is dying, V's loves are either leaving or not in a great position, they are the closest to death. The silver lining is probably supposed to be that you are a legend, but they dropped that story beat with Jackie, so its weird it comes back up since narratively it hasn't been suggested to be your motivation for most of the game at that point. And V doesn't seem to be enjoying being a legend, or financial success at that point. The better version is secret, with no LI, but thats mostly because there is less narrative, allowing you to more easily fill in your own, and rogue lives.

This ending has no good in it really, no balance, and V seems to have no reason for existing. Its basically best used as an ending which says nothing much about V, if you choose the vaguest options.

The devil ending narratively makes sense, but its designed to be painful(which is fine) and generally represents V making a bad choice. This is not how most players are expected to finish the game.


So many people who finish the game will be unsatisfied. Or feel like the goal is to get out of the game world. The journey is well done, and there is a lot to experience in NC, but generally the epilogue is a bad culmination of that experience. It seems like for many players it would literally be better to end the game after the mikoshi choice, with a still image with one caption or just nothing at all. And that means its not doing anything good for the game. Now, its art, and satisfaction may not be the goal, but seeing 10-20% of the people who finished the game decide its too depressing or they have no reason to engage further with the franchise, or just generally unsatisfied.

I'm an example of someone who thinks the game is overall a success, I understand the logic of each ending, the possibilities, and subtext, but I can't say for any of my playthroughs, the epilogues themselves enhanced any narrative I built up to that point. Mostly they had clues and interesting perspectives on certain characters at best.

maybe the Johnny ending, slightly enhanced that narrative, though its kinda rough to see Johnny give up on fighting for what he believes in. This ending also implies the real moral is to give up on NC/nothing really matters.


maybe the crunch in development was so hardcore the dev team could only see escaping the world of cyberpunk as a win, and only resonate with leaving it all for their families.
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but at what point after the heist has V expressed the desire to be legend, that it makes sense thats the purpose of the sun narrative? In this sun path does V seem happy about being legend, does V seem to care anything at all for success, or life?

Is Johnny giving up on changing the world/reaching people actually growth? Is Johnny losing his chaotic fire good? I like him teaching the youth, and taking a more measured approach with the kids family, but is not caring what the corpo does in a world falling into ruin really actually a good thing? Its nice he gives the kid a guitar, but the world the kid lives in is still probably going to spit him out. This ending is ok though, and understandable I'd give it a passing grade, as the Johnny retiring from the world.


really though, I'm just saying I think that many people, not necessarily me, disengage after experiencing the ending, believing there's no reason to continue to engage with cyberpunk, even if they enjoyed the game up to that point. They don't play the other content, and are not looking forward to dlcs or expansions, or feel satiated. Thats not really a great outcome. And its not even just about V being sick, or losing. Many games and fiction have the protagonist in similar states, but it feels worthwhile, or expressive. The epilogues just aren't achieving what they needed to achieve for a significant amount of players.

I'm not even saying my analysis of why is correct, but that it happens is shown, and thats something the devs/writers need to figure out going forward. Maybe they got a plan. I don't really want them to just paint happy endings to satisfy fan service, but I think something went wrong here. The game narrative plays better if you turn off your game after mikoshi choice I think.
Regarding the Sun ending (the space one) I kind of read what you see as the point: that V happens to have become a legend but that was not what he was looking for.

I dunno, I kind of think people are looking for silver linings in different places from me. It's sort of like comparing released versions of Blade Runner (they live happily ever after) with the director's versions
(they realise that they are definitely not going to live happily ever after and that that is OK - - they have grown up and come to terms with the big questions, and realised that the nature of their existence and its purpose is utterly different from what they had thought).
Basically, that the game was never about just staying alive. It was about doing so on your own terms and/or becoming free (including by embracing your mortality).

EDIT: This ties in with all sorts of stuff the game throws out. The meditation quests, that encourage you to escape from the concept of the self into a wider appreciation of what it means to be conscious, free and aware. The tarot, with its focus on your choices being preordained. Is that necessarily correct? The game doesn't suggest it has to be or that that means existence is without purpose, but it does make you think about what *aspects* of existence matter. The questioning by Alt and others of whether Johnny is or is not a soul (many people seem to have taken Alt's view as gospel and that Johnny has no soul; I do not believe that that is what the game is angling at).
 
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but at what point after the heist has V expressed the desire to be legend, that it makes sense thats the purpose of the sun narrative? In this sun path does V seem happy about being legend, does V seem to care anything at all for success, or life?
If I understand this point (I could be wrong), in the Clouds if your V choose it obviously :)
"No, I haven't given up on my dreams, I still want to become a legend"
Same like before "The Heist".
"Dex, I want to be the one, whatever the price"
(only Street Kid path) "This is our chance Jackie, Dex needs us. We will use him to reach the major leagues"
If your V want to become a legend despite all the story events, the Sun ending make sense (naively maybe, I don't know).

Is Johnny giving up on changing the world/reaching people actually growth? Is Johnny losing his chaotic fire good? I like him teaching the youth, and taking a more measured approach with the kids family, but is not caring what the corpo does in a world falling into ruin really actually a good thing? Its nice he gives the kid a guitar, but the world the kid lives in is still probably going to spit him out. This ending is ok though, and understandable I'd give it a passing grade, as the Johnny retiring from the world.
The positive and "happy" point for me, it's the johnny's words in The columbarium.
"Thanks V for... crap... for all in fact. I will never forget what you did for me... How could I ? I walk around with your damn face... But I can't keep this..."

But as I said before, it would surely be better perceived, if you have a different way to choose the end (without changind anything to the endings).
On the roof :
- Method to reach Mikoshi (Johnny/Rogue, Aldecaldos/Panam).
- Help Arasaka.
- Bullet in the Head.
After become to Mikoshi as V :
- Leave Night City with Aldecaldos with Panam (maybe with Judy).
- Try to become a legend.
- Stay in Night City as a simple merc.
 
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Personally, I'm a big believer in satisfying *narrative* rather than investing in specific characters' outcomes, and I think CDP put an insane amount of work in the game into trying to make sure the game's philosophies were clearly articulated and lined up (e.g. the jaw-dropping amount of exploration on the nature of the soul, consciousness, the transient nature of corporeal life).
I think that's where the issue lies. Some of us don't find the narrative's conclusion satisfying. It's great that some people do, but not all of us did. It's not so much about how other characters act, but how V acts. You know, the player character with dialogue options.

V's focus shifts from getting into the major leagues to survival. To a degree you can express aversion to the thought of becoming a legend but in the Sun ending V gets put into the role regardless and they're unhappy for it. We know that chasing glory is a self-destructive path leading to an early grave. We know that and that's why a lot of us picked the dialogue options rejecting the idea.

For people who played their V as someone who values friendships and gave up on the major leagues it's not a great ending. The meaning of friendships and how they're important to V gets brought up several times throughout the game, there's even a dialogue where V gets pretty upset with Judy for choosing to leave Night City, but then all of a sudden friendship doesn't matter unless you choose the nomads. It's strange how something that's kind of more prevalent to V's characterization than the major leagues dream gets dropped in all but the most hopeful ending, and we as players have no choice in the matter.

Second point is a reiteration, you can happily stay in NC if you romanced Kerry or River you can even choose to not get Rogue killed, some would even say too happily, maybe the complaints come from the low number of people who romanced those two as referenced in the numbers thread.
There are people who didn't even romance anyone, picked the Sun ending and some of them still feel just as unsatisfied as those who romanced Kerry or River. Compare Judy's voicemail from the Star ending to Kerry's from the Sun ending, compare Panam's conversation in the Star ending with River's in the Sun. The difference in tone and mood is very noticeable and more optimistic with the girls. The Sun ending is suppose to be a "happy" one for people who picked male love interests. How is argument with River happy? How is Kerry saying that V doesn't spend enough time with him happy?
 
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Regarding

Regarding the Sun ending (the space one) I kind of read what you see as the point: that V happens to have become a legend but that was not what he was looking for.

I dunno, I kind of think people are looking for silver linings in different places from me. It's sort of like comparing released versions of Blade Runner (they live happily ever after) with the director's versions
(they realise that they are definitely not going to live happily ever after and that that is OK - - they have grown up and come to terms with the big questions, and realised that the nature of their existence and its purpose is utterly different from what they had thought).
Basically, that the game was never about just staying alive. It was about doing so on your own terms and/or becoming free (including by embracing your mortality).

EDIT: This ties in with all sorts of stuff the game throws out. The meditation quests, that encourage you to escape from the concept of the self into a wider appreciation of what it means to be conscious, free and aware. The tarot, with its focus on your choices being preordained. Is that necessarily correct? The game doesn't suggest it has to be or that that means existence is without purpose, but it does make you think about what *aspects* of existence matter. The questioning by Alt and others of whether Johnny is or is not a soul (many people seem to have taken Alt's view as gospel and that Johnny has no soul; I do not believe that that is what the game is angling at).

I agree that the game could be about how you choose to live, but in what way is the sun epilogue further representing this, or the natural extension of that narrative? I also agree that it could be that V becomes a legend without intending to, but thats not really the crux of the problem.

lets say the game ends with the choice of well or bridge in mikoshi, maybe a short scene with V/Johnny getting up. Helped up by Panam, or getting up on their own, or going under the knife with arasaka. Would the game/story be any worse?

maybe the devil ending needs the epilogue narratively, but the others?

that's the thing, doesn't seem like the epilogue adds anything to those stories, or enhances the game.

which might be fine, epilogues are often about another story, or wrapping up threads outside the main conflict, or a final statement but here, they don't seem to be making players more engaged in another story, they definitely aren't wrapping up much, generally leaving questions, and only the devil ending makes a statement the narrative didnt already achieve before that.
 
To further add to this. I'm only thinking about buying the expansions because of a hope that one of them is going to do something better with the endings. If they won't, I'm not sure I'd try the sequel(s), even if for the most part I like the game a lot.

If every character in Night City was shown as a deceitful back-stabber, then I'd understand the endings being what they are now, but that is not the case. The game shows that there is goodness, selflessness, even love in Night City but running for the hills with the nomads is still treated as the best option. Why? The importance of family and friendship doesn't lose its meaning in the slightest if you choose to stay in Night City but those very same people (friends and family) that are treated as important with the nomads are devalued in the non-nomad endings. Why?

None of us here want for the game to bend over backwards to accommodate our obscure headcanons. What we wanted was for the "good" endings to be equal in tone. People who didn't pick the nomads shouldn't feel like their experience is worse for it.

I know I sound like a broken record at this point but. :shrug:

The way the ending butchered any agency left me with zero desire to boot up the game since then. Before i experienced the ending i didn't see a scenario where i didn't pay full whack for expansions, Now though i'm pretty committed to not invest another cent in the game unless expansions improve the current despicable rigid endings/continue V's story. After buying into entire Witcher series, Cyberpunk as things stand will leave me more wary of future day one investment in CD Red games, let alone the Cyberpunk franchise.

Yeah for me it's the absence of basic levels of flexibility that should be present in the endings. When all it boils down to choice to kill some nomads(frailroaded happy clappy nomad), not kill some nomads( railroaded depressed loner miserable goon) that's just poor, demotivating and dis-satisfying. Let the player have at least some more nuanced say in motivations such as (stay focus on career, stay focus on family, leave with nomads, leave without nomads)
 
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