Maybe she's right, something is lost
In any case, in my opinion, if anything was lost during the process for Alt (or forgotten during his years behind the Dark Wall), it's those emotions and empathy in particular
I think that Alt is probably the most empathetic and least vile character in the game save possibly Misty. After all, I would not be inclined to help my ex from 50 years ago get out of the latest shitty situation he's found himself in. I think about 90% of the speculation about Alt being bad is due to being a AI and basically just techno-racism.
Then again, I know her from the books and the fact ALT is the only reason the human race wasn't wiped out by Rache Bartmoss' RABIDs or reduced back to the Stone Age.
Either it's me who missed a passage, or it's you
Like when Alt (AI) mercilessly kills all the civilians in Mikoshi for no particular reason in The Star ending.
Or the fact that "Alt (AI)" just helps her "ex" only to destroy Mikoshi and nothing else...
But hey, it's probably me
There (at the right time, and listen Panam and Saul)
edit : I change the video... the majority off youtubers literally rush...
Either it's me who missed a passage, or it's you
Like when Alt (AI) mercilessly kills all the civilians in Mikoshi for no particular reason in The Star ending.
Or the fact that "Alt (AI)" just helps her "ex" only to destroy Mikoshi and nothing else...
But hey, it's probably me
There (at the right time, and listen Panam and Saul)
1. Given all of the Mikoshi personnel are running a cyber hell for the torture and brainwashing of Engrams, I suppose it's how you consider these people. From an AI's perspective, I imagine they're viewed as Nazis death camp officials.
It seems weird calling her out for this when you have probably killed over a thousand people unless you bought the Pax Mod.
2. She also saves you from the Voodoo Boys' second betrayal and Netwatch too.
1. Given all of the Mikoshi personnel are running a cyber hell for the torture and brainwashing of Engrams, I suppose it's how you consider these people. From an AI's perspective, I imagine they're viewed as Nazis death camp officials.
It seems weird calling her out for this when you have probably killed over a thousand people unless you bought the Pax Mod.
2. She also saves you from the Voodoo Boys' second betrayal and Netwatch too.
1 - Yep, but that's not what i call empathy... killing unarmed civilians mercilessly, even in wartime it's called "a war crime"
River shows mercy by not killing Harris, when he would have a good reasons to do it.
In any case, I'm a little bit like Panam and Saul, a bit chocked by that
2 - I didn't see it like that, maybe rather than :
If V is on the VDBs side (be killed by their malware...), She doesn't save you, she take an arrangement with them (which V do not know).
If V betray the VDBs (Netwatch side), Alt kill the VDBs for save herself from the Netwatch malware.
Anyway, we certainly will see that. I'm pretty sure we will see Alt in a future expansion
Science fiction often simplifies the idea of what it would be like to transfer your mind somewhere else. I don't think a lot of people realize just how much of your personality is a sum of the complex interactions of your brain, cells, hormones, body chemistry, experience, and so on, that you've accrued in your lifetime, and it's dependent on that body.
When drugs are able to alter someone's thoughts and emotions in their own body, we can only imagine how that mind would be altered by transplanting a "copied" version of it somewhere else.
Even if we had the technology to fully remove someone's entire nervous system and successfully attach it to a new body, we really don't know how much the mind of that nervous system would change.
I agree, but our concept of personal identity is based on continuity of consciousness. If that is maintained, even if the mind is running on new hardware, I'd see the end result as the same entity. Even if changed in significant ways, to the point of being unrecognisable.
If it's not maintained then it would be a different entity, even if completely identical.
1 - Yep, but that's not what i call empathy... killing unarmed civilians mercilessly, even in wartime it's called "a war crime"
River shows mercy by not killing Harris, when he would have a good reasons to do it.
In any case, I'm a little bit like Panam and Saul, a bit chocked by that
2 - I didn't see it like that, maybe rather than :
If V is on the VDBs side (be killed by their malware...), She doesn't save you, she take an arrangement with them (which V do not know).
If V betray the VDBs (Netwatch side), Alt kill the VDBs for save herself from the Netwatch malware.
Anyway, we certainly will see that. I'm pretty sure we will see Alt in a future expansion
1. My statement is I think "civilians" is a weird word to use for people involved in the torture and mutilation of engrams. But Arasaka is a nation state anyway.
2. I don't think Alt ever gives the Voodoo Boyz the time of day because she only cares about Johnny and they've completely misread her.
Alt according to the tabletop game helped humanity against the Rogue AI and RABIDs. She's the creator of the Blackwall.
In 2077, Alt was still a very powerful entity on the net. A memorial niche to Alt Cunningham can be found at the Columbarium in Night City.[5]V encountered her after being forced to cross the Blackwall by Voodoo Boys; while doing so relived Johnny's memories of Alt before her physical death in 2013. The hope of the Voodoo Boys was that Alt would reveal herself to a familiar entity from her previous life.
Alt recognized the engram of Johnny's and brought him and V to a safe place behind Blackwall. She revealed that she is nothing but an image of Alt Cunningham and is not actually her. The rogue AI explains that the engram was transferred to the net during the 2013 raid. However, due to Johnny disconnecting the physical embodiment of Alt Cunningham while she was still in the net, her consciousness was split from the engram leaving her mind stuck in the net while her body and consciousness laid dying in Johnny's hands.
The engram kept the image of Alt Cunningham to keep itself from going insane as any other AI would in the net over a prolonged time, as Mikoshi didn't exist back then to protect engrams from interference.
After Johnny revealed the nature of V's goals, Alt did not see the situation as her problem. The two offered to take her to Mikoshi, which was the tech she would need. The AI explained that if they destroyed Mikoshi, she could try to create an engram of V if they were subjected to a Soulkiller program and then would transfer it back to their body. Doing so would kill V but allow the engram to be transferred back to their body allowing their brain to overwrite Johnny's engram.
We will see anyway, I would be surprised if we don't see Rogue AI named Alt in a future expansion
Anyway, in view of dialogue between Johnny and Rogue AI named Alt in the Sun Ending, She don't really care about Johnny, and don't do this out of the goodness of your soul, to help Johnny or anyone else.
Dialogue Johnny/Rogue AI
Maybe simply for destroy Mikoshi and above all to collect all the engrams to create something greater (16:39 on the video). We don't know what it is, but it seem quite important for the Rogue AI, enough important to agree to help Johnny and V
(besides, she does not explain it, since we cannot understand according to her)
If she cared about johnny, she would certainly prefer him to come with her behind the black wall. But she doesn't care, that's not her problem at all.
"Not my problem, do as you wish, the bridge or the well."
Edit :
Actually I'm not saying she's "mean" either, because she don't hate johnny at all. No, for me, she doesn't care, simply
Alt-AI reminds me a little of Doctor Manathan in the Watchmen (if some one seen it), who lives in a plane of existence so far removed from that of humanity that he no longer feels concerned at all.
Hmm, I never had the impression Alt was focused on aiding V or Johnny. By the end my impression was Alt wanted to dismantle Mikoshi and gain access to the engrams. It just so happens the interests of V, Johnny and Alt aligned at the time.
I realize she didn't directly provide a reason to doubt her. I don't think she did much to provide a reason to fully trust her either though. Every step of the way I distinctly recall trying to pinpoint her agenda. Just because I thought she had one. I don't think it was exclusive to Mikoshi either. The motivation for pinpointing it being leverage, of course.
I can understand people playing the game and assigning the "good guy" label to Alt. Possibly Johnny as well, flawed as he was. The perspective of "good guy" tends to be trustworthy, on your side, altruistic, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if that was by design. I couldn't help but question whether part of that design was a deliberate illusion. Aka, the "good guy" isn't really good at all. They're using you to get what they want.
The game certainly had plenty of that going around. Dex comes to mind. You could potentially extend that same line of thinking to Hanako. Blue Eyes? It could be argued adventures in space is a positive. V running off to smash Crystal Palace. Possibly directly or indirectly finding a sure-fire solution to the relic problem. Alternatively, let's get famous. Either way, I noticed that chirping in the back of my mind when sitting down with Blue Eyes in the Afterlife. The very same chirping was there the moment Dex started talking after opening up that car door and having a seat next to him.
Hmm, I never had the impression Alt was focused on aiding V or Johnny. By the end my impression was Alt wanted to dismantle Mikoshi and gain access to the engrams. It just so happens the interests of V, Johnny and Alt aligned at the time.
I realize she didn't directly provide a reason to doubt her. I don't think she did much to provide a reason to fully trust her either though. Every step of the way I distinctly recall trying to pinpoint her agenda. Just because I thought she had one. I don't think it was exclusive to Mikoshi either. The motivation for pinpointing it being leverage, of course.
I can understand people playing the game and assigning the "good guy" label to Alt. Possibly Johnny as well, flawed as he was. The perspective of "good guy" tends to be trustworthy, on your side, altruistic, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if that was by design. I couldn't help but question whether part of that design was a deliberate illusion. Aka, the "good guy" isn't really good at all. They're using you to get what they want.
The game certainly had plenty of that going around. Dex comes to mind. You could potentially extend that same line of thinking to Hanako. Blue Eyes? It could be argued adventures in space is a positive. V running off to smash Crystal Palace. Possibly directly or indirectly finding a sure-fire solution to the relic problem. Alternatively, let's get famous. Either way, I noticed that chirping in the back of my mind when sitting down with Blue Eyes in the Afterlife. The very same chirping was there the moment Dex started talking after opening up that car door and having a seat next to him.
For me, it's the fact that Alt is one of the few people who deals straight with you and repeatedly tries to warn you about the dangers of helping her but lives up to her bargains. I admit to being more sympathetic to the AI in the setting than the humans given that they're a hunted minority by NetWatch and a bunch of insane computer cultists who want to worship them.
Delamain is beyond the Blackwall and shows that treating the AI like they're a bunch of White Walkers is pretty much propaganda by the government, especially since the Blackwall was helped to be created by AI to protect humanity in the first place (specifically Alt Cunningham). We know that while she's been living in the net for decades, that she also is "just" a human Engram that was severed from her body by Johnny's idiocy yet she willingly helps him as well as V when his engram comes looking for her help.
We also know Engrams ARE just the people that they are when severed by the Net as Johnny illustrates. Given I view Mikoshi as a kind of horrific torture palace of Arasaka and pure evil, Alt wanting to destroy it is also a good thing.
So it's definitely coming at the subject from two different directions.
Hmm, I never had the impression Alt was focused on aiding V or Johnny. By the end my impression was Alt wanted to dismantle Mikoshi and gain access to the engrams. It just so happens the interests of V, Johnny and Alt aligned at the time.
This is exactly my thought. And Alt already wanted to destroy Mikoshi long before V/Johnny's "proposal" was made. She created armies to try to do so, attempts that all failed. So for V and Johnny to ask for help, this is a "golden" opportunity, so why would she refuse it.
I'm not sure, but Delamain was not a person before (full created AI), no ? He's not the same "type of AI" than Alt. If some one have infos on his origins, it could be interesting
For the enemies of Arasaka, cretainly. But for "rich poeple" who paid millions for "save their soul", maybe not.
Saburo is also in Mikoshi. For me, Mikoshi is more as a securised data fortress. But for all engrams of Arasaka's enemies, yes, that don't seem to be a good place to be
We will see anyway, I would be surprised if we don't see Rogue AI named Alt in a future expansion
Anyway, in view of dialogue between Johnny and Rogue AI named Alt in the Sun Ending, She don't really care about Johnny, and don't do this out of the goodness of your soul, to help Johnny or anyone else.
Dialogue Johnny/Rogue AI
as willow says, alt is full of it. Even as a human she would deny Johnny, and then come see him, etc. I do think alts consciousness has degraded/changed with time, but she seems to still care about things. Also, alt wouldn't need the engrams at mikoshi, her consciousness is fused to the soulkiller program, she can soulkill people at will through the net. (this is what arasaka kidnapped her to make, a mobile soulkiller)
Her beef with mikoshi is that arasaka used her tech to steal and capture her and others. She hasn't forgotten for 50 years.
Hmm, I never had the impression Alt was focused on aiding V or Johnny. By the end my impression was Alt wanted to dismantle Mikoshi and gain access to the engrams. It just so happens the interests of V, Johnny and Alt aligned at the time.
I realize she didn't directly provide a reason to doubt her. I don't think she did much to provide a reason to fully trust her either though. Every step of the way I distinctly recall trying to pinpoint her agenda. Just because I thought she had one. I don't think it was exclusive to Mikoshi either. The motivation for pinpointing it being leverage, of course.
I can understand people playing the game and assigning the "good guy" label to Alt. Possibly Johnny as well, flawed as he was. The perspective of "good guy" tends to be trustworthy, on your side, altruistic, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if that was by design. I couldn't help but question whether part of that design was a deliberate illusion. Aka, the "good guy" isn't really good at all. They're using you to get what they want.
The game certainly had plenty of that going around. Dex comes to mind. You could potentially extend that same line of thinking to Hanako. Blue Eyes? It could be argued adventures in space is a positive. V running off to smash Crystal Palace. Possibly directly or indirectly finding a sure-fire solution to the relic problem. Alternatively, let's get famous. Either way, I noticed that chirping in the back of my mind when sitting down with Blue Eyes in the Afterlife. The very same chirping was there the moment Dex started talking after opening up that car door and having a seat next to him.
the key that let's you know alt isn't ONLY motivated by those goals, is that she showed up at all. If she has no emotions there would be no reason for her to run to the blackwall upon sensing Johnny's memories of their tumultuous relationship. She didnt come expecting them to help her break into mikoshi, that was suggested by Johnny, and she didnt think it would work at first.
She also get annoyed if V rejects Johnny, and literally tells V if it wasn't for Johnny V wouldn't have ever met her.
To be clear, this doesn't mean she doesn't want to destroy mikoshi and free the engrams, just that she does have non logical motivations, and still has some human motivations for her behaviors. She isn't exactly a hero, or an altruist, but her motivations seem inline with humans. Revenge, guilt, responsibility, attachment, purpose, progress are why she gets involved imo.
as I said, she can make engrams at will with anyone she shares a network with, mikoshi isnt needed. Alt AI isn't without history, she had friends even after death (spider Murphy, rache) She helped broker the blackwalls creation between humans and transcendental AI. She built a city for lost engrams.
So, its not that AI =Skynet. Its possible she became less 'human' over time, But seeing her interactions in game, especially that her attitude varies depending on what you do/say she still seems to have a generally human thought process, unlike most other non engram based AIs.
This is exactly my thought. And Alt already wanted to destroy Mikoshi long before V/Johnny's "proposal" was made. She created armies to try to do so, attempts that all failed. So for V and Johnny to ask for help, this is a "golden" opportunity, so why would she refuse it.
I'm not sure, but Delamain was not a person before (full created AI), no ? He's not the same "type of AI" than Alt. If some one have infos on his origins, it could be interesting
For the enemies of Arasaka, cretainly. But for "rich poeple" who paid millions for "save their soul", maybe not.
Saburo is also in Mikoshi. For me, Mikoshi is more as a securised data fortress. But for all engrams of Arasaka's enemies, yes, that don't seem to be a good place to be
I have search a little bit, I have found nothing about that. Give me a clue where it is
(Just the title of the book, could be great)
netwatch brokered a deal with a transcendental AI, alt was the actual only one who could 'convince/talk' to it.
blackwall part begins around 6:21
she doesn't say all her sources, but she appears to be a believable. I feel like at one point I saw the where she got this idea, but its fuzzy now. She doesn't do cyberpunk content anymore, but she seemed to be extremely knowledgeable on the lore according to R Talsorian.
ahh found it, its from cyberpunk red, which is supposed to be the bridge between 2020 and 2077 lore wise
"The Dungeon" (as Netwatch pros and 'runners now called the old NET Architecture). They bail the weefle runners out and then run for cover before the really awful Black ICE descends upon them like the hammer of Thor. But recently, with the help of Alt Cunningham and a mysterious cabal of Transcendental AIs, Netwatch head, Magnificent Curtis and his crack team have been able to write software that could tackle the Black ICE and R.A.B.I.D.s that have infested the Old NET. And behind the scenes, the Transcendentals, the Ghosts, and Netwatch have been working together on a project to get the NET under control; a project that exists on no books or official documents, known only by the ominous title of The Black Wall.
We are the real us in every now. Hence a copy will deviate from the original in some way just by time passing alone.
Then there is that two object can not occupy the same space...
This is what the game is trying to elaborate on, the conundrum of a copy that doesn't exist at the same time with the original nor is it aware of the original's existence to the full extent of the notion.
V cannot meet the copy V, so this whole notion that the copy V is not the real V has no meaning beyond semantics.
The copy V is more or less V since it's the only V, in layman's terms.
as willow says, alt is full of it. Even as a human she would deny Johnny, and then come see him, etc. I do think alts consciousness has degraded/changed with time, but she seems to still care about things. Also, alt wouldn't need the engrams at mikoshi, her consciousness is fused to the soulkiller program, she can soulkill people at will through the net. (this is what arasaka kidnapped her to make, a mobile soulkiller)
Her beef with mikoshi is that arasaka used her tech to steal and capture her and others. She hasn't forgotten for 50 years.
Except about her interest about Mikoshi. With Mikoshi she have access to all (or most) engrams of the most rich and powerful people of the world.
And therefore to all the information they may have in their memories (bank accounts, confidential informations, secrets, codes, contacts,...). It's an insane amount of "important" data who can certainly serve her for later (for what, who know...).
Data and informations who were inaccessible to Alt before ('cause Black Ice with her name on it, literally).
A bit as if a malicious hacker who can hack anyone's account very easily, who is offered direct access to all the accounts of the richest and most powerful people in the panète. Honestly, it's a jackpot
Annoyed maybe, but in my opinion, far less than in Johnny's dialogue. Where she barely speaks to him before leaving without a word.
If it's what I thinking :
netwatch brokered a deal with a transcendental AI, alt was the actual only one who could 'convince/talk' to it.
blackwall part begins around 6:21
she doesn't say all her sources, but she appears to be a believable. I feel like at one point I saw the where she got this idea, but its fuzzy now. She doesn't do cyberpunk content anymore, but she seemed to be extremely knowledgeable on the lore according to R Talsorian.
ahh found it, its from cyberpunk red, which is supposed to be the bridge between 2020 and 2077 lore wise
Except about her interest about Mikoshi. With Mikoshi she have access to all (or most) engrams of the most rich and powerful people of the world.
And therefore to all the information they may have in their memories (bank accounts, confidential informations, secrets, codes, contacts,...). It's an insane amount of "important" data who can certainly serve her for later (for what, who know...).
A bit as if a malicious hacker who can hack anyone's account very easily, who is offered direct access to all the accounts of the richest and most powerful people in the panète. Honestly, it's a jackpot
Annoyed maybe, but in my opinion, far less than in Johnny's dialogue. Where she barely speaks to him before leaving without a word.
If it's what I thinking :
The thing is, alt is already a huge player. And she doesn't seem to use the power she has now to the fullest(super villain wise) potential. She was literally one of the top 3 netrunners in existence, who were able to break into almost any system. She is now seemingly immortal, and has even more connections to AIs. The knowledge in mikoshi was formidable, but I think she could already get similar levels of knowledge if she desired it. What she couldn't get is the engrams trapped in Arasaka, by her technology. She had shown a concern and desire to build a society for engrams before.
She helped the rebuild the net for humans, (this was sometime between 2020 and 2060).
I mean I'm sure there is valuable data there, but if Alt was about world domination, she already had chances, and data is her Forte.
Except about her interest about Mikoshi. With Mikoshi she have access to all (or most) engrams of the most rich and powerful people of the world.
And therefore to all the information they may have in their memories (bank accounts, confidential informations, secrets, codes, contacts,...). It's an insane amount of "important" data who can certainly serve her for later (for what, who know...).
Data and informations who were inaccessible to Alt before ('cause Black Ice with her name on it, literally).
A bit as if a malicious hacker who can hack anyone's account very easily, who is offered direct access to all the accounts of the richest and most powerful people in the panète. Honestly, it's a jackpot
Annoyed maybe, but in my opinion, far less than in Johnny's dialogue. Where she barely speaks to him before leaving without a word.
If it's what I thinking :
that Johnny dialog can go well actually, but more than that silent treatmenting johhny, and saying he's an idiot is pretty much Human Alt's way of dealing with Johnny.
Go see his show after saying they were done, have sex, instantly get into an argument where she calls him a mentally ill veteran, and this was goodbye, storm out, then go home with him.
The thing is, alt is already a huge player. And she doesn't seem to use the power she has now to the fullest(super villain wise) potential. She was literally one of the top 3 netrunners in existence, who were able to break into almost any system. She is now seemingly immortal, and has even more connections to AIs. The knowledge in mikoshi was formidable, but I think she could already get similar levels of knowledge if she desired it. What she couldn't get is the engrams trapped in Arasaka, by her technology. She had shown a concern and desire to build a society for engrams before.
She helped the rebuild the net for humans, (this was sometime between 2020 and 2060).
I mean I'm sure there is valuable data there, but if Alt was about world domination, she already had chances, and data is her Forte.
Yep, I don't said it's for world domination, but have those informations could serve one day. Like having Saburo's engram (and datas), if for any reason, she have to "negotiate" with Arasaka
Alt's projects are unknown (something "greater") and anyway, incomprehensible to a simple human, if I understood what she said to Johnny.
I get it (Cyberpunk Red - Jumpstart Kit), so I already see that Cyberpunk 2077 have take some liberty...
2022 "Rache Bartmoss, Netrunner supreme, is killed in a Corpo-rate raid. Two weeks later, the dead man switch for his DataKrash virus activates."
But :
2025 "NET is officially down. Alt Cunningham establishes the Ghost World in the ruins of bio–destroyed Hong Kong. As everything in HK is dead, the Chinese government puts a 100–foot wall around HK to keep the plague contained."
2035-2045
"Netwatch attempts to clear out the R.A.B.I.D.S. and rees-tablish the Old NET. After a losing three–year battle, they give up and shut down all the major Nodes into the Old NET (although some Netrunners still try to go there to loot the abandoned systems)."
the key that let's you know alt isn't ONLY motivated by those goals, is that she showed up at all. If she has no emotions there would be no reason for her to run to the blackwall upon sensing Johnny's memories of their tumultuous relationship. She didnt come expecting them to help her break into mikoshi, that was suggested by Johnny, and she didnt think it would work at first.
She also get annoyed if V rejects Johnny, and literally tells V if it wasn't for Johnny V wouldn't have ever met her.
To be clear, this doesn't mean she doesn't want to destroy mikoshi and free the engrams, just that she does have non logical motivations, and still has some human motivations for her behaviors. She isn't exactly a hero, or an altruist, but her motivations seem inline with humans. Revenge, guilt, responsibility, attachment, purpose, progress are why she gets involved imo.
as I said, she can make engrams at will with anyone she shares a network with, mikoshi isnt needed. Alt AI isn't without history, she had friends even after death (spider Murphy, rache) She helped broker the blackwalls creation between humans and transcendental AI. She built a city for lost engrams.
So, its not that AI =Skynet. Its possible she became less 'human' over time, But seeing her interactions in game, especially that her attitude varies depending on what you do/say she still seems to have a generally human thought process, unlike most other non engram based AIs.
All of this is based on what the game shows you. I'm looking at it from the angle of what it doesn't show you.
To pick one example in your post, let's go with the suggestion to break into Arasaka tower and reach Mikoshi. Digital or not, Alt knows what makes Johnny tick. She may have known he would suggest it before he did so. It's conceivably possible she was banking on it. As an outside observer, or V, you may be none the wiser.
Your comments on Alt's emotional abilities are along similar lines. Supposedly a common trait for psychopaths is they can't experience empathy. It doesn't stop them from faking it though. So well outside observers can be completely unaware of it.
