[Spoiler Alert] About the endings

[Neriyavanli]

I think that's a cop-out tbh. It's the answer everyone slings at me when I express my own disappointment in the way the endings were left on cliffhangers. Cyberpunk doesn't automatically have to be a shit ending. There's no rule book on such things that I'm aware of. To have the endings open, and then do fuck-all with them...is a shitty thing to do to a player, especially one that has grown attached to their OC like I and countless others have. You don't dangle hope in front of my face, snatch it up, and then expect me to not be pissed about it.

I don't mean it to be a cop-out and I agree with you expressing your disappointment with the game ending and hell I'm on the camp and voted for a happier end for those that want it. What I mean is the subject of cyberpunk is not a happy one or a power fantasies cyberpunk the genre isn't known for that it is depressing/bittersweet but meaningful to everyone differently.

 

[AvarageEnjoyer]

What I mean is the subject of cyberpunk is not a happy one or a power fantasies cyberpunk the genre isn't known for that it is depressing/bittersweet but meaningful to everyone differently.

It can be both, really. As in, it can be both happy power fantasy and have depressing meaning. The overarching theme can be pretty messed up, but the challenges of individual heroes can be resolved happily.
Take Mad Max 2 or Fury Road, for example. It's a very depressive world, where civilization was reduced to a shadow of the former self - and yet, the ending is still optimistic and conclusive. After all, cyberpunk is just a setting, like every other. And settings can convey variety of meanings and genres, sometimes completely opposite - both Star Trek and Dune are sci-fi, but that's about the only similarity they have.

 

[Neriyavanli]

It can be both, really. As in, it can be both happy power fantasy and have depressing meaning. The overarching theme can be pretty messed up, but the challenges of individual heroes can be resolved happily.
Take Mad Max 2 or Fury Road, for example. It's a very depressive world, where civilization was reduced to a shadow of the former self - and yet, the ending is still optimistic and conclusive. After all, cyberpunk is just a setting, like every other. And settings can convey variety of meanings and genres, sometimes completely opposite - both Star Trek and Dune are sci-fi, but that's about the only similarity they have.

Is mad max cyberpunk or are you using it as an example sorry I never got into it so I don't know. And I should make myself more clear.

Cyberpunk can have a many of differently elements and themes like most things but the cyberpunk story is known for the fact that is somewhat depressing and thought provoking and a lot of different people are going to come out from the experience with different views and standing point. It is part of the fun and it is interesting but to take away the somewhat depressing things and thought-provoking bits of it and replace it with a happy power fantasy when it is not that or known for that takes aways the experience and fun.

Cyberpunk 2077 ending are open ended and just empty in my opinion like which at times make me like the devil and johnny taking your body ending cause while too on the nose it is the only two that feels somewhat closed. The other are just like space palace and maybe finding a cure out of night city which before didn't bother me cause you know maybe we will get a expansion in relation to the endings but that is a no and now it is a up in the air with maybe V comes back for the next game to close out the ending or they just be like hahahaha you so fun V who here is our new protagonist who at no point in time mentions V and the endings of our last game.

That s***t isn't very cyberpunk or cool but the cyberpunk 2077 story overall is very cyberpunk. Also sorry if I am coming off as confusing

 

[Bearded Geek]

I do not mean to be disrespectful but this read very entitled to me like because you have done all this in your youth others should not get to experience and have these discussions about a game that for a lot of people are new experience. You can enjoy what you like and feel how you feel but don't invalidate those that are new to this conversation or feel differently at the end of the day it is a cyberpunk game and I mean CYBERPUNK these stories are not happy ones or power fantasies it is about looking at the bigger picture and finding your own meaning in the end.

Edit: Also it is ok to not like a game not everything is made for everyone and this might be a this game is not for you moment plus you have already said you don't wanna play cause it is all pointless to you. Cyberpunk 2077 is the first game in the series none of us know anything about the next game, what happens to V or anything else it is just shooting at the dark for now. Also also Sorry if I am being rude/disrespectful

My point is that "sad = deep and artsy" is only annoying to me and also that "the bigger picture" is... yeah I guess you are right there, I consider it pointless. Especially as I said what I have seen of the philosophy put in the game during Let's Plays clashes hard with my own beliefs. (Also... why on earth would I even buy the next game if the authors pull this in this one? The common thread for authors is to up the ante for every instance which means the next one probably would be more depressing, not less).

Anyway, "cyberpunk is always sad" is not correct. It simply isn't. Not as a genre anyway. I am not clear if you mean Cyberpunkt as in this specific TTRPG (I have never played the TTRPG), or Cyberpunk the genre, because cyberpunk the genre most definitely have non-disastrous ending all over media since the genre was invented, immediately proving you wrong. Cyberpunk is shades from grey to black, not Grimdark. If you think Cyberpunk the genre is Grimdark, you need to reevaluate the genres (Grimdark is it's own genre btw). List of works on top of my head with dark grey to light grey endings: Blade Runner. Robocop. Ghost in the Shell. Fallout (which is actually EX Cyberpunk, since it's set in a post-apocalyptic cyberpunk world). Demolition Man, Matrix, Judge Dredd (comic and movies), Minority Report, Ultraviolet, Gamedec, Shadowrun...

 

[AvarageEnjoyer]

Is mad max cyberpunk or are you using it as an example sorry I never got into it so I don't know. And I should make myself more clear.

Oh, no-no, Mad Max isn't cyberpunk, i was just using it as an example of a depressive world with depressive message, but also a very action packed movie, that can be categorized as a power fantasy.
And you aren't confusing at all, we actually agree on many things. What I mean, however, is that despite being thought provoking and depressing, story can have a definitive optimistic conclusion. This concepts aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Like, first Matrix movie is also cyberpunk, but it has a happy ending, despite having a lot of thought provoking ideas and concepts.

 

[Neriyavanli]

Oh, no-no, Mad Max isn't cyberpunk, i was just using it as an example of a depressive world with depressive message, but also a very action packed movie, that can be categorized as a power fantasy.
And you aren't confusing at all, we actually agree on many things. What I mean, however, is that despite being thought provoking and depressing, story can have a definitive optimistic conclusion. This concepts aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Like, first Matrix movie is also cyberpunk, but it has a happy ending, despite having a lot of thought provoking ideas and concepts.

I agree and don't believe that just because it is cyberpunk and has point where things are depressing or bittersweet or the likes that the ending has to be that way or the ending has to be open ended cause it is thought provoking. Cyberpunk media can and has many a different ending sometimes happy, sad, ones that leave you angry until you sit and think about it or ones that are like cyberpunk 2077 and it's like wtf wait that's it!? My point is the story itself is very cyberpunk and takes on a lot of different cyberpunk themes which are and can be seen as depressing whereas the endings feels cyberpunk but not cyberpunk at the same time and that sucks. I hope CDPR does something with it or tells us something in the next game or something I need to know what happens to my girl

Post automatically merged: Dec 13, 2022

My point is that "sad = deep and artsy" is only annoying to me and also that "the bigger picture" is... yeah I guess you are right there, I consider it pointless. Especially as I said what I have seen of the philosophy put in the game during Let's Plays clashes hard with my own beliefs. (Also... why on earth would I even buy the next game if the authors pull this in this one? The common thread for authors is to up the ante for every instance which means the next one probably would be more depressing, not less).

Which I agree with sad=deep and artsy is annoying and very much b.s at times in a simplified way just because something is sad doesn't make it deep or meaningful or artsy and people will use things that are shocking or depressing for attention which is annoying however not everyone and everything is about oh I want attention let's do this, some do it as a way of expressing themselves and in those moment it can be deep and artsy and meaningful to each there own you know.

Anyway, "cyberpunk is always sad" is not correct. It simply isn't. Not as a genre anyway. I am not clear if you mean Cyberpunkt as in this specific TTRPG (I have never played the TTRPG), or Cyberpunk the genre, because cyberpunk the genre most definitely have non-disastrous ending all over media since the genre was invented, immediately proving you wrong. Cyberpunk is shades from grey to black, not Grimdark. If you think Cyberpunk the genre is Grimdark, you need to reevaluate the genres (Grimdark is it's own genre btw). List of works on top of my head with dark grey to light grey endings: Blade Runner. Robocop. Ghost in the Shell. Fallout (which is actually EX Cyberpunk, since it's set in a post-apocalyptic cyberpunk world). Demolition Man, Matrix, Judge Dredd (comic and movies), Minority Report, Ultraviolet, Gamedec, Shadowrun...

I will say I should have not put it in such a simple way no cyberpunk is not always sad but does cyberpunk not deal in heavy themes that cause one to feel sad is there not tragedy trauma and depressing context and content in cyberpunk media cause if we are going off the ones you listed there is and always will be but just because there is doesn't mean I believe cyberpunk is always sad. Cyberpunk can be beautiful, happy, joyful, it can make me angry, empathetic, the world is fuck and corporations/rich run everything but there are still kind and caring people, people who cling to the past before tech and people with there own beliefs and life out the corporation cyberpunk can be sad and depressing but there is always a bigger picture and something thought provoking and interesting to be said and done.

 

[SigilFey]

I think you're mixing up some replies here? Your lengthy well written reply (starting with the odd statement "I don't like it"), does not make sense to my quick statement that erasing someone's mind is murder, which in turn was not a comment about the endings as such at all but rather just dismissing the idea that erasing someone from existence could be seen as hopeful?

Erasing a person is murder regardless if it's done by nanites or a shotgun to the brain. The effect on the person is literally the same, hence both are murder of the same degree.

That said, reading your well written reply... all of this could have been avoided with a different marketing campaign:

How about "Guide V in their tragic and ultimately futile hunt for salvation thru the streets and back alleys of Night City"?
This tagline is 100% true to the story, the setting and the source material and everyone buying the game would know exactly what they're getting. Everyone's happy.

Of course that would mean less "cool and badass poses" in the marketing tho.

I'm responding to your overall argument, not just the life/death considerations. Just because you, personally, can't fathom other considerations, that does not mean that there are no considerations. Just because you won't compromise on that view does not mean that there are not other, perfectly valid, contradictory views that are supported by the piece.

You're then attempting to use your own rigid stance on a subjective consideration as evidence of a game that fails to achieve success in its design, overall, ruining the experience for many players...because...

...they don't like that. And they want something else. So this should be changed into something it's not, so that they can like it.

^ That's where your argument starts to break down and is not supportable. (Hopefully, that also clarifies what I meant about the "I don't like it," statement. Letting the quotation marks imply the meaning may have been a bit vague, I admit.)

_______________


The same sort of situation exists with the yellow-highlighted statement above, which is superimposing your subjective interpretation of V's actions as being "futility" and a "hunt for salvation" as if it's a given. That's not at all a given. It's open.

I don't define the actions of a dying person as being futile. That would imply that accomplishments and victories only apply if they benefit oneself, personally. And it's not possible to achieve meaningfully for the good of others. That completely devalues acts of sacrifice. I vigorously disagree with that concept. And if such actions do have meaning -- there goes the futility argument altogether.

There's also not a lot of evidence for V "hunting for salvation". Conversely, there is a lot of evidence that V (very quickly!) comes to terms with his fate and decides that he's going to pursue his goals anyway. Sure, for a few scenes at the beginning, we see him struggling with the fact that he just got a death sentence. Here and there, the fact that he's dying is addressed. Sure, he hopes that they'll find something -- anything -- that might help. That's just simple, instinctual human self-preservation. But we see a LOT more scenes about V accepting that he's not long for the world and being determined to make use of the time he has left: to avenge Jackie...to expose Arasaka...to find answers...to deal with Johnny...to fight for what he believes in and make a difference...because he's dying.

In the Panam ending, he even comes right out and says it's not about him. It's not about glory and fame. It's about doing what's right, and he needs to make sure that it matters. That gives his life worth. It makes it mean something.

Yeah, we can take other pathways as well. There's the pathway that leads to rage, fulfilling Johnny's wishes, pretty much. There's the political ending, just trying to put things into some form of balance. The game even goes down the dark path of abandoning all hope and taking the coward's way out through the suicide ending. Each of which is a gritty and qualified representation of how different people (and literary characters!) may react when confronted with the reality of their own mortality.

It's classic, explored throughout the history of literature, beautifully re-imagined here, and a 100% valid story arc with meaningful resolutions. No one is required to like dark, tragic arcs...but that does not make such themes "poor", nor does it "ruin" the experience. It's simply an experience that some people may not like. It's just a preference. Happy endings vs. sad endings is the same difference as lemon-parmesan vs. extra-hot buffalo wings. It's not right or wrong. It's not totally flawless versus completely broken. It's: "I like this," or, "I don't like this."

 

[Bearded Geek]

I'm responding to your overall argument, not just the life/death considerations. Just because you, personally, can't fathom other considerations, that does not mean that there are no considerations. Just because you won't compromise on that view does not mean that there are not other, perfectly valid, contradictory views that are supported by the piece.

You're then attempting to use your own rigid stance on a subjective consideration as evidence of a game that fails to achieve success in its design, overall, ruining the experience for many players...because...

...they don't like that. And they want something else. So this should be changed into something it's not, so that they can like it.

^ That's where your argument starts to break down and is not supportable. (Hopefully, that also clarifies what I meant about the "I don't like it," statement. Letting the quotation marks imply the meaning may have been a bit vague, I admit.)

_______________


The same sort of situation exists with the yellow-highlighted statement above, which is superimposing your subjective interpretation of V's actions as being "futility" and a "hunt for salvation" as if it's a given. That's not at all a given. It's open.

I don't define the actions of a dying person as being futile. That would imply that accomplishments and victories only apply if they benefit oneself, personally. And it's not possible to achieve meaningfully for the good of others. That completely devalues acts of sacrifice. I vigorously disagree with that concept. And if such actions do have meaning -- there goes the futility argument altogether.

There's also not a lot of evidence for V "hunting for salvation". Conversely, there is a lot of evidence that V (very quickly!) comes to terms with his fate and decides that he's going to pursue his goals anyway. Sure, for a few scenes at the beginning, we see him struggling with the fact that he just got a death sentence. Here and there, the fact that he's dying is addressed. Sure, he hopes that they'll find something -- anything -- that might help. That's just simple, instinctual human self-preservation. But we see a LOT more scenes about V accepting that he's not long for the world and being determined to make use of the time he has left: to avenge Jackie...to expose Arasaka...to find answers...to deal with Johnny...to fight for what he believes in and make a difference...because he's dying.

In the Panam ending, he even comes right out and says it's not about him. It's not about glory and fame. It's about doing what's right, and he needs to make sure that it matters. That gives his life worth. It makes it mean something.

Yeah, we can take other pathways as well. There's the pathway that leads to rage, fulfilling Johnny's wishes, pretty much. There's the political ending, just trying to put things into some form of balance. The game even goes down the dark path of abandoning all hope and taking the coward's way out through the suicide ending. Each of which is a gritty and qualified representation of how different people (and literary characters!) may react when confronted with the reality of their own mortality.

It's classic, explored throughout the history of literature, beautifully re-imagined here, and a 100% valid story arc with meaningful resolutions. No one is required to like dark, tragic arcs...but that does not make such themes "poor", nor does it "ruin" the experience. It's simply an experience that some people may not like. It's just a preference. Happy endings vs. sad endings is the same difference as lemon-parmesan vs. extra-hot buffalo wings. It's not right or wrong. It's not totally flawless versus completely broken. It's: "I like this," or, "I don't like this."

So... we have such completely different philosophical starting points we can't even begin to argue the matter, it seems. if you can't even agree on the highlighted part, which literally is what the main plot IS (but the marketing department choose not to sell the game telling that)... then the debate is indeed futile. The fact that you don't consider being braindead "death" is also fascinating.

That's the main point of contention tho, what you call "beautifully reimagined" and what I call "rehashed for the nth time without telling the buyer that's what the game is about". OF COURSE it's all personal preference; I am not saying you are wrong for, indeed, view it as "beautifully reimagined", I am just asking that I shouldn't have to watch thru an entire stream of a game because the marketing department can't be honest about the game's story.
I would not have bought the game if I had any idea this was the story, since to me the story is indeed pointless, depressing and has no philosophical value. It's not only dark and sad, it is dark and sad in a way that I fundamentally disagree with.

Lesson learned at least, never buy a game without googling the endings / and or watch a complete Let's Play of it before buying.

Anyway, thanks for attempting a meaningful debate, but as I said... futile unfortunately.

Edit: Again tho, the suicide ending is the most heroic and brave solution of all the endings (I am being serious) since it is the ONLY solution the game lets us actually have agency over our life. Nobody, not even the corps nor Johnny get to tell us what to do, we go out on our own terms. The best a person can hope for. (Again, being 100% serious).

 

[AvarageEnjoyer]

There's also not a lot of evidence for V "hunting for salvation".

This is just not true.
Every action V takes throughout the main story is, in one way or another, tied to search for the cure. Looking for Evelyn, hunting down Voodoo-boys, kidnapping Hanako and Anders Hellman - all of it is directly related to the hunt for salvation, without any hint of outside motivation. Even in the end, when V storms Arasaka with Aldecaldos/Rouge/etc., they don't to it to fulfill some greater goal or send a message - you can interpret it this way, but the narrative purpose is very clear.
Sure, there is a lot of side content, that isn't urgent or related to the search for cure - maybe even some where V shows some level of "acceptance" (which I don't remember from top of my head). But none of it is related to the main crux of the story - V doesn't want to die and does anything in their power to avoid it. It is the way the story goes.

 

[The_Blacks]

That's the main point of contention tho, what you call "beautifully reimagined" and what I call "rehashed for the nth time without telling the buyer that's what the game is about". OF COURSE it's all personal preference; I am not saying you are wrong for, indeed, view it as "beautifully reimagined", I am just asking that I shouldn't have to watch thru an entire stream of a game because the marketing department can't be honest about the game's story.
I would not have bought the game if I had any idea this was the story, since to me the story is indeed pointless, depressing and has no philosophical value. It's not only dark and sad, it is dark and sad in a way that I fundamentally disagree with.

Lesson learned at least, never buy a game without googling the endings / and or watch a complete Let's Play of it before buying.

Doing some research before buying is always a good idea, in fact I don't remember the last time I bought a game without pre-buy research. IMHO TW games had much better writing, in both tragedy and otherwise.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

I'm responding to your overall argument, not just the life/death considerations. Just because you, personally, can't fathom other considerations, that does not mean that there are no considerations. Just because you won't compromise on that view does not mean that there are not other, perfectly valid, contradictory views that are supported by the piece.

You're then attempting to use your own rigid stance on a subjective consideration as evidence of a game that fails to achieve success in its design, overall, ruining the experience for many players...because...

...they don't like that. And they want something else. So this should be changed into something it's not, so that they can like it.

^ That's where your argument starts to break down and is not supportable. (Hopefully, that also clarifies what I meant about the "I don't like it," statement. Letting the quotation marks imply the meaning may have been a bit vague, I admit.)

Not that it matters and this has been discussed at length before but.... I think it's clear the "argument" is the game did X, it did not hit the mark for a certain consumer so they were disappointed in it. I do not believe it has anything to do with declaring the game broken, objectively bad or a failure.

It's classic, explored throughout the history of literature, beautifully re-imagined here, and a 100% valid story arc with meaningful resolutions. No one is required to like dark, tragic arcs...but that does not make such themes "poor", nor does it "ruin" the experience. It's simply an experience that some people may not like. It's just a preference. Happy endings vs. sad endings is the same difference as lemon-parmesan vs. extra-hot buffalo wings. It's not right or wrong. It's not totally flawless versus completely broken. It's: "I like this," or, "I don't like this."

This is a fair perspective. "I like this. and, "I don't like this." have value though. It's generally how all works of entertainment/art are judged. In a subjective manner.

There is a lot I didn't like about CP. Is it objectively busted? Nope. I just didn't like it. I don't like the fact the narrative inserts extreme urgency very early and it continues to rise throughout in an open world game. Why? Conceptually those two things have anti-synergy. The only way around it is to wave it off. The consumer must suspend their disbelief and simply accept the competition between the two concepts. Some may not care. I do care. There are ways to setup a narrative while avoiding this anti-synergy.

For the endings the same issue pops up. A game featuring choices and consequences. Yet the narrative selected, as it was constructed, must reach a specific, pre-determined destination. Again, anti-synergy. On one hand I'm being told to make decisions and reap the consequences of those choices. On the other the story is forcing the issue. For an interactive, choices and consequences focused video game it's not a good pairing, in my opinion.

Somehow the defense of that approach seems to be "Well it's Cyberpunk.". I get lost here given Cyberpunk does not necessitate a negative conclusion. More importantly, in this particular case all intended messages were sufficiently conveyed, regardless of conclusion. The nature of the dystopian world, megacorps, their iron fist rule, tragedy, crushed dreams, the masses being in an apathetic state, specific people fighting the good fight in the face of hopelessness. All of these aspects and every single thought provoking subject the game explores were achieved prior to the endings.

To me an ending where V definitively achieves a cure for the Relic curse fits like a glove in this narrative. I would not consider such a conclusion happy either. It's not as if experiencing the horrors of NC, the suffering and losses V undergoes along the journey, the mistakes the character makes, etc. would suddenly vanish with such a conclusion. All of that would still exist. I have trouble rationalizing what the game would lose for letting the player character come out the other side knowing they get to survive. Even if they did know this they would still be stuck in the proverbial hell hole. Awaiting another knife in the back or the next danger lurking around the corner.

Lesson learned at least, never buy a game without googling the endings / and or watch a complete Let's Play of it before buying.

Pro tip, it's a working strategy. Don't pre-order. Don't buy at release. Wait 6+ months at a minimum post release before considering a purchase. Use that time to watch gameplay implemented in the game in a functioning state. As a bonus it lets you avoid paying for the privilege to beta test too.

This is just not true.
Every action V takes throughout the main story is, in one way or another, tied to search for the cure. Looking for Evelyn, hunting down Voodoo-boys, kidnapping Hanako and Anders Hellman - all of it is directly related to the hunt for salvation, without any hint of outside motivation. Even in the end, when V storms Arasaka with Aldecaldos/Rouge/etc., they don't to it to fulfill some greater goal or send a message - you can interpret it this way, but the narrative purpose is very clear.
Sure, there is a lot of side content, that isn't urgent, related to the search for cure - maybe even some where V shows some level of "acceptance" (which I don't remember from top of my head). But none of it is related to the main crux of the story - V doesn't want to die and does anything in their power to avoid it. It is the way the story goes.

Well, it's true to say any motivation aside from "I want to survive." after the Heist ordeal is weak at best. The game kind of picks the options back up later though. Probably on the rooftop if my memory is accurate. Alterior motivations for V's actions. Granted, it's a little vague here because it seems like certain selections are meant to represent certain outlooks but don't fully seal the deal. So the player can view them in a variety of ways.

Case and point, riding off to Crystal Palace. I think it's clear V is continuing the chase for glory, becoming the best merc in all the land, and either accepting a limited time to do so or in denial. At least it seems like this was the intended meaning. As a player you can choose to see this as taking another big boy job to gain more notoriety, establish more connections to open other doors and secure a cure for the Relic curse via some yet known means though.

The Devil is perhaps the strongest example of my meaning here. There are many, many subtle signs you're basically boned here. Naively making a deal with the Devil thinking it will somehow lead anywhere good. Regardless, you could wave this intended meaning off and fill in the blanks in a variety of ways.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

From TTRPG rule book (Cyberpunk Red)

▶ Edgerunners Captured
This Beat is best played when the Edgerunners have really messed up, but you don’t want to kill them outright. Instead, they’re captured, and the adventure ends with them in durance vile, locked in a Corp jail or left adrift on the ocean. At this point, you have the option of starting a new Game or picking up where the old one left off. A hot Gamemaster tip: don’t imme- diately start the next Game. Instead, put the PCs in limbo, make them create all new Edgerunners, and run a totally different game first. Not only does this make the Players sweat out the fate of their Edgerunners, it buys you time to decide how you want to proceed after their upcoming daring escape!

▶ Greater Threat
So, you thought getting rid of the Antagonist ended the problem, eh? No; behind them stands a far greater threat! Sure, you took down the local Zhirafa head of security but that means you’ve attracted the attention of their boss or the gang leader you deposed was working for the Yakuza and now you have to deal with them.
In this Scene, you discover that this is only the begin- ning, and another game lurks in the offing.

▶ Pyrrhic Victory
The Edgerunners won, technically. They finished the job and they killed the Antagonist, but their victory came at a hefty price. Their HQ burned to the ground or an important NPC died during the final confronta- tion. Whatever the case, while they’re walking away winners, the Edgerunners shouldn’t feel like it. Be careful—while this victory feels very Cyberpunk it can be a tough act to follow.

▶ Ending Cliffhanger
So, they beat the rival gang and kicked them out of their territory, huh? Just as the Edgerunners are about to break out the Smash and celebrate, a Nomad convoy rolls down the street and announces they’re taking over the neighborhood!
The Ending Cliffhanger is another way to set up for a sequel but keep the tension on all the way. As with the Edgerunner Captured Resolution, you might consider spacing out the sequel with another, different game first.

 

[AvarageEnjoyer]

On the other the story is forcing the issue. For an interactive, choices and consequences focused video game it's not a good pairing, in my opinion.

This opinion of yours is dangerously close to being a fact.

 

[Eucliddalexandria]

@LadyMiseryAli​

Erm .... all the Sun endings lead to

Spoiler

V's death in space organized by Mr Blue et al

Not a "nice ending imho. And Judy does not break up with you. Quite the opposite, she

Spoiler

joins you with the Aldoercaldos to leave NC for good

. If you try the same with Kerry or River they

Spoiler

won't join you (although River promised to join you later)

Cheers Euclid

 

[AvarageEnjoyer]

@LadyMiseryAli​

Erm .... all the Sun endings lead to

Spoiler

V's death in space organized by Mr Blue et al

Not a "nice ending imho.

Where did you got that from, may I wonder?

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Where did you got that from, may I wonder?

Hope it's not because of propulsion jets on the space suit (the only way to move in space^^), I remember that some thought it was a kind of oxygen leaks...

 

[Bearded Geek]

Hope it's not because of propulsion jets on the space suit (the only way to move in space^^), I remember that some thought it was a kind of oxygen leaks...

That's exactly it; a small group i've seen when investigating the endings keep insisting V is deliberately
killed by the fixer by sabotaging her space suit "you can hear the oxygen leaving".

Post automatically merged: Dec 14, 2022

Another problem with the endings is of course that the narrative of the story missions and the endings are completely disjointed not only from the gameplay but also from the writing of the side missions.

In my quest to watch the gameplay I have now arrived at Act II... where V has a mental breakdown after being told she has 2 weeks to live, then get physically abused by her brain tumor, who is acting like your typical abusive boyfriend (that's not an illusion, her head smashing into the window leaves a bloody stain that is very much real... why would V forgive Johnny for that btw?) then as soon as she leaves the garage every fixer in town is calling her about cars she can buy and about 8 months worth of side quests.
It is blatantly obvious that they want to both emphasize that they are doing a deep emotional story game AND let you know that the city is now unlocked and you can do so much cool stuff! Again, it is horribly disjointed.

It is almost absurd how you go from the desperate hunt for a cure the main quest portrays and to cool car hunting and sexy clothes posing and then back again. I can definitely understand people rushing thru the game and missing almost all the ending choices because they actually roleplay V in a role player game. If Vic had said "I don't know? Weeks? Months? A year? This is totally above my skill level" then it would have been so much better.

 

[CS554]

I'm 50+, probably the same age bracket as you, seeing how I did grow up with first the Vic20, then the C64, then the Amiga 500 and then PCs. Never owned a console, btw.

But thing is... I've done all this. I am DONE with all this. And with "this" I mean "figure out the meaning of life and death, the meaning of existence, yada yada". I did that 35 years ago; you either do it as a teenager or you do it on your death bed and I did between 15 and 20. To me this whole discussion, or rather most of the arguments against a happier ending that are not just "Source material!" are from people (not only on this forum! But all over, from Steam to Reddit to Quora) who still feel all these things need more prodding. (Basically "it's only art if it's depressing" or similar comments).

There is nothing in the world that has been explored more than the human nature and the nature of death and rebirth. There are BILLIONS of sides of paper, parchment, papyrus, stone tablets, clay tablets, standing stones and oral traditions about all this.
I am not trying to disrespect those who still feels all this need more prodding, but to me it is all old news, old arguments, and old theories. I have seen them all, embraced very very few, dismissed the vast majority and so what is left here is pointless depression.

I don't need my protagonist to die tragically to let me feel something, or reflect on something.

I have never experienced Cyberpunk 2077 before patch 1.61, so I wouldn't know has been added and not, but for story driven games (whatever exactly that definition is) my favorite is obviously Fallout 4 with 1891 hours, then AC Odyssey with 300+ and the ME trilogy with about as many.

It is telling, as has been pointed out in this thread before, that V actually never get to answer Dex. It is a clever tactic from the writer that you cannot actually answer "I'd rather die old"; you only get to start the argument before Dex ends it despite him being the one asking.
At the same time it's clear V doesn't necessarily agree; she can be mad at Jackie for being a glory hound while she's the mature one but you never get to explore that side of thinking until the very very end of the game. Arguable Sun is the Glory Hound answer, while Star and Temperance are different variations of "Fade Away", one even literally. The Devil... I don't know. And I still argue Path Of Least Resistance is the most defiant and heroic one.

It's sometimes happen, that for whatever reason, people talk past each others. No offence, just try to make sure if you understood my post.

 

[Bearded Geek]

It's sometimes happen, that for whatever reason, people talk past each others. No offence, just try to make sure if you understood my post.

Yeah I kinda went on a rant there, but as I said later, from my point of view there is nothing new, beautifully retold or interesting in the story. I respect (I really do) those who think that way, but all I see is the same "understand human nature" piece that has been written at least three times a year since 4000 BC.

 

[joebeard]

I thought the end was excellent; we all die, at least my V got to go out on his terms - in a blaze of glory doing some utterly insane stunt in space. I also thought the end was happy, because all the people V helped left him messages, which proved that for once, somebody had managed to live a life that had had meaning to others. V embodied everything meaningful and worth living for during his short existence.