[Spoiler] I think I got the best ending. Change my mind.

[capt.k]

I don't even know why you have to make up new or other endings that didn't happen?
Number 1 didn't happen and Number 2 was as much "V dies" as Number 1 in your scenario.
I went for neither of those choices.... So I don't get your point, sorry.

Number 1 happens if V chooses to take on Arasaka with the Aldecados. Some of the Aldecados die and they put Panam (assuming you romanced her) in danger. V then removes Johnny with Soulkiller, which essentially kills them.

Number 1 happens if V chooses to take on Arasaka with Rogue. Rogue dies. Soulkiller kills V, etc

Number 2 happens if V chooses to side with Arasaka. No one V cares about gets involved. Johnny is removed WITHOUT Soulkiller. V gets the option of Living on Earth for 6 months or surrendering his life to Soulkiller in a contract.

Of course, I'm assuming Soulkiller kills its victim as per the philosophical reasonings I've posted several times on the forums.

Let me know where you disagree.

 

[shanersimms11]

Here is a mental experiment to try and convince you: Imagine a copy of your mind/soul/whatever is made and you SURVIVE THIS PROCESS. The copy is transferred to a physical clone of you and is kept in a lab. You go on with your own business but death befalls you as you are accidentally struck by a speeding truck. The copy replaces you in society and everyone is none the wiser. In this scenario, you have experienced death and are no longer conscious. Thus, In my opinion, 'you' have not survived.

For philosophy's sake, I wanted to debate this point in good faith. I believe it's more complex than this. I think of it more this way: Up until the cloning process, you are an individual: "A". At the precise moment the cloning happens, you now have two variants, lets call them "A1" and "A2" that are exactly the same. At this point in time I would say there are two "you's". Both incarnations have the exact same memories, feelings, experiences, relationships, etc.

However from the moment "A1" goes back out into the world and "A2" goes to the lab they become different people insofar as they then have different experiences from that point forward; they learn and grow differently etc. Then when A1 dies to the speeding stuck, it is A1 that dies, not "A" the original individual. "A" survives on in A2 with all of the same memories, feelings, experiences, relationships, etc. that A had up until the point of cloning, modified only to the extent of A2's experiences post-cloning. "A" never fully dies until both A1 and A2 die.

 

[CTPhipps]

"You can't save the world, but you can save yourself." And in my head, in a distopian world like this, end justifies the means. Especially when you roleplay as a criminal to begin with.

You can't save the world but you can save a shit ton of people in it.

Number 1 happens if V chooses to take on Arasaka with the Aldecados. Some of the Aldecados die and they put Panam (assuming you romanced her) in danger. V then removes Johnny with Soulkiller, which essentially kills them.

Number 1 happens if V chooses to take on Arasaka with Rogue. Rogue dies. Soulkiller kills V, etc

Number 2 happens if V chooses to side with Arasaka. No one V cares about gets involved. Johnny is removed WITHOUT Soulkiller. V gets the option of Living on Earth for 6 months or surrendering his life to Soulkiller in a contract.

Of course, I'm assuming Soulkiller kills its victim as per the philosophical reasonings I've posted several times on the forums.

Let me know where you disagree.

Well Soulkiller doesn't kill you because it makes you immortal. You can live forever with Arasaka as part of the Rich Master Race as body swapping vampires.

 

[Aasimar-X]

I'm keen to hear what you guys think. By all means, take the discussion as seriously as you want but be civil.

in my opinion in The Sun ending V maybe will survive.
You get a job from the illusive Mr. Blue Eyes (see the Dream On quest) and he makes a deal with you that sounds like hes maybe able to help you. The game ends when V is drifting to the space station. And i dont think air is getting out of the helmet, i think its the air propulsion system you need to navigate in space

i guess this is kinda the canon ending and the DLC will be the spacestation heist
fingers crossed

 

[Subenu]

ok then let me quote your options and you will see that it already differs from what you are answering:

Question 1: Have V and the people they care about die and create a power vacuum for the other megacorps/alt + consequences.

Your Answer: #1 happens if V chooses to take on Arasaka with the Aldecados. Some of the Aldecados die and they put Panam (assuming you romanced her) in danger. V then removes Johnny with Soulkiller, which essentially kills them.

Your Answer: #1 happens if V chooses to take on Arasaka with Rogue. Rogue dies. Soulkiller kills V, etc

Question #2: V LIVES AND have NONE of the people they care about die and instate engram Saburo + consequences.

Your Answer: #2 happens if V chooses to side with Arasaka. No one V cares about gets involved. Johnny is removed WITHOUT Soulkiller. V gets the option of Living on Earth for 6 months or surrendering his life to Soulkiller in a contract.

Of course, I'm assuming Soulkiller kills its victim as per the philosophical reasonings I've posted several times on the forums.

Alright, from my point of view I think it's still debatable (or a philosophical question) that is in the air. I tend to lean towards Soulkiller as not really killing V. But I still think Alt Cunningham is not free of fault (or the know all be all), she's not telling us everything and is not be trusted (which is the same with Arasaka).

Now to the questions:
#1:
I agree that we put people in danger in Choice #1 and some of the Aldecaldos die and then Soulkiller (however it really works out) separates V/Johnny. Furthermore there is no real "power vacuum left behind by Arasaka", they got inflicted "some" damage but Yorinobu (most likely) killed off the board of directors and Hanako and is able to rebuild and restructure the Corp. My V-Version doesn't die and is on her way to find a cure with the Nomads, following the outlooks of the very optimistic signs (e.g. tarot).
Outcome Johnny killl Rogue, yes. and otherwise same as before.

#2:
According to what happens, this is right; no one seems to be endangered and they generally lose you.
You can only take the words of Arasaka how they are presented to you, which are highly influenced by gains, efficiency and profit. Yes, Hanako tells you she would use the know-how to separate you. However you don't know how much it really succeeded, because to this point V and Johnny have already began merging. And up to this point it's debatable if they would kill a part of you with the removal of the chip.
You killed off Yorinobu, who wanted to change and rebuild Arasaka from the inside and was taken over by the Engram of Saburo which is a really, really unclear factor what might influence the future not only of your beloved ones, but of humankind itself on an even bigger scale. A new war between Arasaka and Militech might happen (might also be the case but initiated by Militech in #1)
Furthermore:
Now you're (V is) in a state, where you are observed and treated like some guinea pig. Imo It's kind of like a state between living and being dead. You are just there for data.
In the whole event and onwards the devil (hellman) ending you are given two choices again:
Sell out yourself (and your soul) even more, becoming a part of Mikoshi, and property of Arasaka. Which effectively also means your death, you have no rights and no further agenda anymore and you don't know what your "soul" or whatever is left will be used for, if it's used at all or maybe rewritten and bastardized to fit the needs of Arasaka (which is highly possible)
The other choice is, that you can leave, pack your stuff and leave for earth. But the outlook (meaning the symbolism, tarot, etc) are very bad in this one. You don't have long to live. Also in the meantime during all the tests your while lifetime that you had left might have already passed. There is no clear answer at the end, since it's abrupt after you look out towards earth. My opinion could be either you survive (for new DLC possibility) or you die right there "in/with freedom" after your choice.
In #2 you inflict kind of passively grieving and sadness onto your loved and dearest ones and family/friends. ofc not as much as in the suicide ending, but it's harsh.

Hope this clears up our "differences" ?
This might be because our outlook on the game as the outcomes differs on a very basic level, which might leave us to only one thing: that we disagree

 

[capt.k]

For philosophy's sake, I wanted to debate this point in good faith. I believe it's more complex than this. I think of it more this way: Up until the cloning process, you are an individual: "A". At the precise moment the cloning happens, you now have two variants, lets call them "A1" and "A2" that are exactly the same. At this point in time I would say there are two "you's". Both incarnations have the exact same memories, feelings, experiences, relationships, etc.

However from the moment "A1" goes back out into the world and "A2" goes to the lab they become different people insofar as they then have different experiences from that point forward; they learn and grow differently etc. Then when A1 dies to the speeding stuck, it is A1 that dies, not "A" the original individual. "A" survives on in A2 with all of the same memories, feelings, experiences, relationships, etc. that A had up until the point of cloning, modified only to the extent of A2's experiences post-cloning. "A" never fully dies until both A1 and A2 die.

I think this is an interesting idea although I feel it somewhat complicates the idea of what an individual is. To simplify things, think of the perspective of A1. Do they share their consciousness with A2? I'd say no. Hence, when A1 dies, A1 loses consciousness. In A1 perspective, they die. A1 is essentially V when he chooses Soulkiller, imo. There are people here who strongly disagrees with this analysis so I dunno. Maybe sit and have a real good think about this and let me know why you may disagree.

Post automatically merged: Jan 2, 2021

ok then let me quote your options and you will see that it already differs from what you are answering:



Alright, from my point of view I think it's still debatable (or a philosophical question) that is in the air. I tend to lean towards Soulkiller as not really killing V. But I still think Alt Cunningham is not free of fault (or the know all be all), she's not telling us everything and is not be trusted (which is the same with Arasaka).

Now to the questions:
#1:
I agree that we put people in danger in Choice #1 and some of the Aldecaldos die and then Soulkiller (however it really works out) separates V/Johnny. Furthermore there is no real "power vacuum left behind by Arasaka", they got inflicted "some" damage but Yorinobu (most likely) killed off the board of directors and Hanako and is able to rebuild and restructure the Corp. My V-Version doesn't die and is on her way to find a cure with the Nomads, following the outlooks of the very optimistic signs (e.g. tarot).
Outcome Johnny killl Rogue, yes. and otherwise same as before.

#2:
According to what happens, this is right; no one seems to be endangered and they generally lose you.
You can only take the words of Arasaka how they are presented to you, which are highly influenced by gains, efficiency and profit. Yes, Hanako tells you she would use the know-how to separate you. However you don't know how much it really succeeded, because to this point V and Johnny have already began merging. And up to this point it's debatable if they would kill a part of you with the removal of the chip.
You killed off Yorinobu, who wanted to change and rebuild Arasaka from the inside and was taken over by the Engram of Saburo which is a really, really unclear factor what might influence the future not only of your beloved ones, but of humankind itself on an even bigger scale. A new war between Arasaka and Militech might happen (might also be the case but initiated by Militech in #1)
Furthermore:
Now you're (V is) in a state, where you are observed and treated like some guinea pig. Imo It's kind of like a state between living and being dead. You are just there for data.
In the whole event and onwards the devil (hellman) ending you are given two choices again:
Sell out yourself (and your soul) even more, becoming a part of Mikoshi, and property of Arasaka. Which effectively also means your death, you have no rights and no further agenda anymore and you don't know what your "soul" or whatever is left will be used for, if it's used at all or maybe rewritten and bastardized to fit the needs of Arasaka (which is highly possible)
The other choice is, that you can leave, pack your stuff and leave for earth. But the outlook (meaning the symbolism, tarot, etc) are very bad in this one. You don't have long to live. Also in the meantime during all the tests your while lifetime that you had left might have already passed. There is no clear answer at the end, since it's abrupt after you look out towards earth. My opinion could be either you survive (for new DLC possibility) or you die right there "in/with freedom" after your choice.
In #2 you inflict kind of passively grieving and sadness onto your loved and dearest ones and family/friends. ofc not as much as in the suicide ending, but it's harsh.

Hope this clears up our "differences" ?
This might be because our outlook on the game as the outcomes differs on a very basic level, which might leave us to only one thing: that we disagree

It is in these situations where we need to be objective about how we analyze two different results. It is a useful skill to be able to weigh the pros and cons clearly. This is all I will say. I accept our differences and I wish you all the best.

 

[Subenu]

I think this is an interesting idea although I feel it somewhat complicates the idea of what an individual is. To simplify things, think of the perspective of A1. Do they share their consciousness with A2? I'd say no. Hence, when A1 dies, A1 loses consciousness. In A1 perspective, they die. A1 is essentially V when he chooses Soulkiller, imo. There are people here who strongly disagrees with this analysis so I dunno. Maybe sit and have a real good think about this and let me know why you may disagree.

Post automatically merged: Jan 2, 2021

It is in these situations where we need to be objective about how we analyze two different results. It is a useful skill to be able to weigh the pros and cons clearly. This is all I will say. I accept our differences and I wish you all the best.

Same to you

 

[capt.k]

Well Soulkiller doesn't kill you because it makes you immortal.

It's too common to equate immortality with duplication nowadays. Refer to the teletransportation paradox.

 

[CTPhipps]

It's too common to equate immortality with duplication nowadays. Refer to the teletransportation paradox.

I write cyberpunk where the led of my book says that mental copying isn't immortality. However, in Cybeprunk 2077, it really is you and not a copy.

 

[shanersimms11]

I think this is an interesting idea although I feel it somewhat complicates the idea of what an individual is. To simplify things, think of the perspective of A1. Do they share their consciousness with A2? I'd say no. Hence, when A1 dies, A1 loses consciousness. In A1 perspective, they die. A1 is essentially V when he chooses Soulkiller, imo. There are people here who strongly disagrees with this analysis so I dunno. Maybe sit and have a real good think about this and let me know why you may disagree.

Post automatically merged: Jan 2, 2021

It is in these situations where we need to be objective about how we analyze two different results. It is a useful skill to be able to weigh the pros and cons clearly. This is all I will say. I accept our differences and I wish you all the best.

Where is your analysis of A2? Any further response I could give I've covered in my original post, which you are ignoring. But to repeat, as I noted, A2 is the same individual as A1 (they are both "A") up until the cloning. I agree A1 and A2 are different post cloning, but they are only different insofar as any new experiences post-cloning. They both fully contain the consciousness of A as he existed at the precise moment of cloning, which survives on in both A1 and A2.

Here is where your argument falls apart. If A2 does not contain the consciousness of "A" then neither can A1, for they are copies of the same "A". If that's the case, A the individual ceased to exist at the moment of cloning and neither A1 or A2 are the consciousness of A. Which is nonsensical because both A1 and A2 contain all of the memories, feelings, experiences, etc. of A. Conclusion, A survives, if at all, until both A1 and A2 die.

 

[Spectral_Warrior]

I do not know exactly in which mission description it was, but there's one mission description from the Jackie view that states that his final wish for V is to survive. Which leads me to believe that, if you look at it that way, any ending where you choose for V to live fulfills this wish. What my gripe is with this, as with many others, is that is doesn't because the relic has destroyed V's body to such degree the engram will eventually be rejected.

The fact that Soulkiller is used is... I suppose fine, in how its explained. I didn't think much more of it really. Its the damaged body thing that forces the max 6 months that I have far greater issues with. Btw, to me these things sound like 2 different aspects. I would reckon that te damaged body should still be repairable somehow. CP may come up with the lore of how it would work, because I have too little knowledge. But I refuse to believe any body that receives an engram aka copy of themselves should be beyond repair.

 

[JubJub154]

Hey guys, I'm just trying to get a understanding of where people stand on the game (more specifically the ending(s).) If you could answer the poll and if you got the time to answer the questions listed below (plus add what ever you feel necessary) I would appreciate it!

Poll and Opinion Questions ***(((SPOILERS)))***

Do you think we will get post-story content? If you feel the poll didn't give you an option which you feel applies to you write down it down below. Also please spread this poll to other threads, it would be very helpful. I want to get the largest sample size I can. Just a few questions for you...

forums.cdprojektred.com

 

[capt.k]

Where is your analysis of A2? Any further response I could give I've covered in my original post, which you are ignoring. But to repeat, as I noted, A2 is the same individual as A1 (they are both "A") up until the cloning. I agree A1 and A2 are different post cloning, but they are only different insofar as any new experiences post-cloning. They both fully contain the consciousness of A as he existed at the precise moment of cloning, which survives on in both A1 and A2.

Here is where your argument falls apart. If A2 does not contain the consciousness of "A" then neither can A1, for they are copies of the same "A". If that's the case, A the individual ceased to exist at the moment of cloning and neither A1 or A2 are the consciousness of A. Which is nonsensical because both A1 and A2 contain all of the memories, feelings, experiences, etc. of A. Conclusion, A survives, if at all, until both A1 and A2 die.

Try not to say things like "Here is where your argument falls apart" when you want a discussion in "good faith".

Now. If you clone A, you have to specify which is the original. A1 or A2? What do you mean by consciousness? How does your definition work when you say "A2 is conscious of A1 getting hit on the head."

"If A2 does not contain the consciousness of "A" then neither can A1." I think you're digging your own hole here, just pointing it out. I ask you again, which one is the original?

 

[shanersimms11]

Try not to say things like "Here is where your argument falls apart" when you want a discussion in "good faith".

Now. If you clone A, you have to specify which is the original. A1 or A2? What do you mean by consciousness? How does your definition work when you say "A2 is conscious of A1 getting hit on the head."

"If A2 does not contain the consciousness of "A" then neither can A1." I think you're digging your own hole here, just pointing it out. I ask you again, which one is the original?

First off, saying someone's argument falls apart, when it does, is in no way debating in bad faith. I'm sorry if that irks you, but it is what it is.

Secondly, if it is not a perfect copy then how is it a clone? If the original is somehow more valuable than the copy, then the copy is imperfect. If it's not a perfect copy, then you no longer have A turning into A1 and A2, but you now simply have A and B.

And no, A2 would not be aware of the consciousness of A1 and vice versa, as they only exist separately post cloning.

But how am I digging my own hole? My statement stands, and if neither A1 or A2 contain the entire consciousness of A, then A died completely at cloning. By this view A would turn into B and C while ceasing to exist. Yet if A somehow lives on, then he would necessarily have to live on in bot hA1 and A2, unless again the copy (A2) is imperfect.

 

[capt.k]

First off, saying someone's argument falls apart, when it does, is in no way debating in bad faith. I'm sorry if that irks you, but it is what it is.

Secondly, if it is not a perfect copy then how is it a clone? If the original is somehow more valuable than the copy, then the copy is imperfect. If it's not a perfect copy, then you no longer have A turning into A1 and A2, but you now simply have A and B.

And no, A2 would not be aware of the consciousness of A1 and vice versa, as they only exist separately post cloning.

But how am I digging my own hole? My statement stands, and if neither A1 or A2 contain the entire consciousness of A, then A died completely at cloning. By this view A would turn into B and C while ceasing to exist. Yet if A somehow lives on, then he would necessarily have to live on in bot hA1 and A2, unless again the copy (A2) is imperfect.

You are trying twist definitions to fit your agenda and it shows. Remember, in a written discussion you can't go back on what you write so think through what you're saying carefully.

You need to address the point of why my argument falls apart. So what was my argument? And how does it fall apart. You haven't given enough reasoning for me to change my mind.

Your lines of reasoning are based on false premises. How can something be a clone if it it's not a perfect copy? If the original is more valuable? How does this relate to what I was talking about?

When you clone something, you need something to clone first. How do you want to refer to the original? Because, according to you, the original ceases to exist once a perfect copy is made? I don't understand your viewpoint and I think you'll dig yourself a deeper hole as you try to rationalise this line of thought because it's clear that's the intent.

 

[TintelFruit]

There is no A anymore. they died the moment they were resurrected by the Biochip, Johnny’s minds starts melding with yours from that moment on, and during every ending you either leave with some of Johnny’s influence left or with a broken conciousness who doesn’t even know who they truly are anymore. So take Misty’s advance, change is inevitable embrace it.

 

[Raptorousrex]

Well, Every reasonable person should understand that change is constant nothing ever stays same and considering people if you spend long enough with one person eventually you mostlikely absorb partially someone others way of thinking "seeing eye to eye".

 

[loppy88]

Soulkiller

Soulkiller is a Black Program written by Alt Cunningham, later stolen by Arasaka. Alt originally designed Soulkiller while working at ITS as a way of preserving the consciousness and memories of dying individuals. She was later kidnapped by Arasaka who planned to use the program for offensive...

cyberpunk.fandom.com

Anyone read this? Some parts below:
''...Johnny Silverhand's engram later admits that he has always been dead due to the Soulkiller actually killing souls and believes his nature is to rebel from beyond the grave to honor the real Johnny Silverhand's mission...''

''...To restore his honor he agrees with Hanako that he will let his father take over his body and mind, who had his body secretly subjected to the Soulkiller program after his death. While Alt in this ending is not present to clarify the repercussions of being Soulkilled, several characters including V will point out that engrams from the dead are not real humans and simply data masquerading as humans...''

 

[capt.k]

There is no A anymore. they died the moment they were resurrected by the Biochip, Johnny’s minds starts melding with yours from that moment on, and during every ending you either leave with some of Johnny’s influence left or with a broken conciousness who doesn’t even know who they truly are anymore. So take Misty’s advance, change is inevitable embrace it.

That's debatable and you have a strong case. What I'm more concerned about is the person that is V after the resurrection. This is the person I am referring to when I'm talking about A.

 

[Icinix]

If you are copied but cease to exist as you, does they who believes they are you become you? Or are they now someone not you but believes themselves to be you? In which case were you, who no longer exists now them instead of you?