[Spoiler] Stout's Super Goons

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After some thought, I would agree that if you're going to be put down (ala Dex), you should either have the option to fight it (while still losing)or, at the least be more cleverly set up. Granted the part where you lose would eventually make some people scream about how they kill cyberpyschos on the regular, but there's no pleasing some. I guess ideally when the huscle smacks you you would get a quick time response to try to shoot/hack/stab/wrestle one of them, either really messing up the huscle or winging Dex (Dex after all needs to live to help takemura) before the one you didn't deal with puts you down and THEN Dex shoots you. And possibly an attempt to betray them first that runs to the same scene...

Though that starts drifting into the territory of are you playing V's story or A story, since most of the game has you playing V's story.

Incidentally, if you never go in to that bathroom, eventually the huscle smacks you anyhow when you turn to talk to Dex.
 
I never called Stout on my first play through, and now I am so glad, because going to that meeting makes me feel like an incompetent scrub. V doesn't have brain problems later from the Relic, it's from the writer that keeps hitting her on the back of the head.

Looking at that situation, I'm like, "Okay, I'll knock out her two goons and then we can talk on even terms." But nope. The writer has decided you have to be powerless in this scenario so they just turn off all of your abilities. Her bodyguards are immune to my Legendary Quickhacks, ignore grenades, and magically prevent me from even targeting them with a weapon.

You WILL get hit on the head and held at gunpoint. You WILL answer her questions or DIE.

And after she calls me a bitch, roughs me up, has her man plug into my brain against my will, and threatens to kill me, then I have no dialogue choice but to BEG her to let me help her with her convoy problem?

Hard Pass.

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so what? You somehow survive the heist, kill all those soliders, destroy the mech in the end and are then knocked out by dexter deshaus bodyguard and shoot down by 9mm pistol or something after you survived gun fire from assault rifles in the hotel.

Its always the same with story parts in rpg´s they completly ignore your charackter level, abilities, items and everything else that makes you cut through random npcs like a hot knife through butter.
 
I do understand that, but I still have problems with this scene.
1. This is a situation where V should be able to protect herself. The fact that she is unable to do so creates a break in the narrative.
2. It is fine to create situations where V is unable to initiate violence. However, I believe it is a violation of the player's trust to turn off their ability to engage in combat, and then have NPCs engage in combat against them while they can't defend themselves.

I think a designer can achieve the narrative goals of scenes like this without mashing the player's nose in the dirt while their hands are tied. When you decide to force a defeat on the player you should take extra care with how you do it. I don't think this scene made that effort.

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Yes. What you describe is another version of the First Person Shooter trope of: You know your character shouldn't walk through "the door", or walk around "that corner" BUT.......................you have to do it to advance the campaign, and you promptly get butt stroked and lose all your weapons and gear and get treated like a ***** in general (even though you, the player, knew better than to "do that".

As a game technique; I didn't mind it the first time. After about 20-30 more times; all it is, is a worn out FPS trope that the shine has been knocked off entirely.
 
Mass Effect 3 back in the day, there were few situations there where player character was cut scene stupid or powerless and that was really jarring.

Ah yes Kai Leng....who doesn't love the guy and the events with him:) Especially vanguards!
.....sorry offtopic:)

On the OP topic - I agree that this scenario (and Dex's one for that matter) could have been handled better. I don't think that at that point of the story V is/should be someone who can take Meredith's goons, but for players that wanted to try that should have been an option. IMO you should (after they make short work of you) wake up in a nearby ally with Jackie checking on you (and maybe another bullet in your head:) ).
 
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And we come back to the issue of verisimilitude in a first person action game. The core gameplay loop of those is, essentially, moving yourself with a keyboard while dragging your mouse over a series of targets to be serviced before the mostly-artificial time point where they damage you. To keep the feedback loop going, those targets need to go down and provide new ones. Throw in some scaling numbers and it's an action RPG. That's not a critique - there are times when I want to hack up some drowners or machinegun down legions of vaguely military bad guys to a spectacular backdrop after all. But it does tend to cause a conflict with situations where you want to bring the story back to a point where the differences in power have consequences or you can't just awesome your way out. After all, the rest of the game is basically stroking your ego about how cool you are.

In fantasy settings, you largely get around that by making other individuals wildly powerful by means of magic, being a giant monster, whatever. So no one blinks twice when a vampire guts Geralt or we don't make a move on Gaunter O' Dim.

Where we start having the disconnect is more "realistic" (A loose term if there ever was one for cyber ninjas from the 80s chopping people up with katanas while hacking involves jacking your brain into the net) scale. Either way you jump there is going to be a discrepancy. If you leave the player powered up, then all your gritty tales of personal level violence and betrayal become a few trivial clicks that likely are about as engaging as shooting down three mooks on the corner. If you power down, then we get people talking about "but I'm so much more badass when dragging my mouse around! How could you do this to me!'

Or as another way to look at it, if you're trying to tell an old western with characters who mean something and there are a handful of poignant moments of violence that matter, it's not going to fit neatly with Arnold running around with a never ending belt on his machinegun as faceless mooks die by the literal dozens every scene.
 
Ah yes Kai Leng....who doesn't love the guy and the events with him:) Especially vanguards!
.....sorry offtopic:)
It's valid for comparison. Kai Leng was all sort of legendary video game antagonist for not how to make them, but this "sorry can't do that" started on Mars where you couldn't biotic charge that thing that become EDI sexbot.

In comparison CP 2077 handles things way better, but topic is always interesting and important. Brannon makes good point, though on counter point CDPR could have used two outrageous attribute checks (20 for Body and Reflexes) and result would have been the same. Yet, implementing those skill checks might actually just frustrate the player more than having no skill checks at all like it's now or it might give impression that high Body is something essential to have.

Brannon's further pondering how things could play out if V could make that skill check, I guess it comes down to what game tries to convey. It's not just to progress things, but at the same time it gives insight how things are run at Militech, what kind of corporation they are and that then contributes towards player understanding that while Arasaka and Militech are brand A and B, neither one is something that could be called as good guys in universe.

It still good that players pay attention to these things and good topic. The world doesn't need another ME3.
 
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Looking at that situation, I'm like, "Okay, I'll knock out her two goons and then we can talk on even terms." But nope. The writer has decided you have to be powerless in this scenario so they just turn off all of your abilities. Her bodyguards are immune to my Legendary Quickhacks, ignore grenades, and magically prevent me from even targeting them with a weapon.

You WILL get hit on the head and held at gunpoint. You WILL answer her questions or DIE.
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You think this is bad? You think this is broken? Ha. You ain't seen nothin' yet...

There is "magic", invisible killing field placed several floors below Yorinobu's appartment during the Heist, one which makes sure you die if you had a fancy idea to use your double jump and air-dodge cyberware to try and jump into the sea.

And that magic invisible killing field is _disappearing_ exactly after Jackie gets mortally wounded, thus _allowing_ you to actually get back to the roof above Yorinobu's appartment - and yes, jump into the sea and survive it unscathed.

And after escaping whole Arasaka army in Konpeki hotel that "jump into the sea" way, you are _still_ required to go back into Konpeki's garage like some idiot.

But, for even more idiocy, there are invisible walls - couple around Konpeki's main entrance, and another at the entrance into Konpeki main hall, the latter completely preventing you to go to the garage.

Going to No Tell Motel won't work either after jumping off from the Konpeki's roof: the room is locked and "nobody's home". Dex said he'll be there if things go south, but he ain't there after things go south if you do the jump - he's only there if you play Rambo through the arasaka goons in Konpeki. Telepthy at work eh.

Also, the ladder towards which you and Jackie were walking the itty tiny plank when that police drone attacked - can not be used at all, because there is an invisible "lid" on it, preventing you to ever use it if you ever get back to it after jumping down.

And as a cherry on top, no matter what you do, no matter how alert you stay, no matter where you move, once you enter Dex's room after "properly" going through getting arasaka goons and Jackie all killed - you are getting that bullet into your head. Even if you're keeping your eyes on Dex's bodyguard at all times and try to stay as far from him as possible - "magic" happens via camera control taken away from you at certain moment, during which V will face away, and then Dex's bodyguard will nearly instantly get into melee range to V and knock her out cold.


And that's just one of main missions. Most of main missions are like that: doing something you're not "told" to do by current quest's objective - at best gets you killed, at worst make you unable to ever proceed (breakes the quest, makes it impossible to complete it ever after). Sort of interactive cinematics, most main quests are. Like it or not, but this is clearly developers' choice to do the main story in such a way, and it'll stay.
 
After some thought, I would agree that if you're going to be put down (ala Dex), you should either have the option to fight it (while still losing)or, at the least be more cleverly set up. Granted the part where you lose would eventually make some people scream about how they kill cyberpyschos on the regular, but there's no pleasing some. I guess ideally when the huscle smacks you you would get a quick time response to try to shoot/hack/stab/wrestle one of them, either really messing up the huscle or winging Dex (Dex after all needs to live to help takemura) before the one you didn't deal with puts you down and THEN Dex shoots you. And possibly an attempt to betray them first that runs to the same scene...

Though that starts drifting into the territory of are you playing V's story or A story, since most of the game has you playing V's story.

Incidentally, if you never go in to that bathroom, eventually the huscle smacks you anyhow when you turn to talk to Dex.
Yeah like the 2018 trailer where V basically dismembers the hustle and impale him with the mantis blade until t bug hacks him so Dex could shoot him.

That should be an option. But t bug would be a bad guy then instead of killed by arasaka ice.
 
You think this is bad? You think this is broken? Ha. You ain't seen nothin' yet...

There is "magic", invisible killing field placed several floors below Yorinobu's appartment during the Heist, one which makes sure you die if you had a fancy idea to use your double jump and air-dodge cyberware to try and jump into the sea.

And that magic invisible killing field is _disappearing_ exactly after Jackie gets mortally wounded, thus _allowing_ you to actually get back to the roof above Yorinobu's appartment - and yes, jump into the sea and survive it unscathed.

And after escaping whole Arasaka army in Konpeki hotel that "jump into the sea" way, you are _still_ required to go back into Konpeki's garage like some idiot.

But, for even more idiocy, there are invisible walls - couple around Konpeki's main entrance, and another at the entrance into Konpeki main hall, the latter completely preventing you to go to the garage.

Going to No Tell Motel won't work either after jumping off from the Konpeki's roof: the room is locked and "nobody's home". Dex said he'll be there if things go south, but he ain't there after things go south if you do the jump - he's only there if you play Rambo through the arasaka goons in Konpeki. Telepthy at work eh.

Also, the ladder towards which you and Jackie were walking the itty tiny plank when that police drone attacked - can not be used at all, because there is an invisible "lid" on it, preventing you to ever use it if you ever get back to it after jumping down.

And as a cherry on top, no matter what you do, no matter how alert you stay, no matter where you move, once you enter Dex's room after "properly" going through getting arasaka goons and Jackie all killed - you are getting that bullet into your head. Even if you're keeping your eyes on Dex's bodyguard at all times and try to stay as far from him as possible - "magic" happens via camera control taken away from you at certain moment, during which V will face away, and then Dex's bodyguard will nearly instantly get into melee range to V and knock her out cold.


And that's just one of main missions. Most of main missions are like that: doing something you're not "told" to do by current quest's objective - at best gets you killed, at worst make you unable to ever proceed (breakes the quest, makes it impossible to complete it ever after). Sort of interactive cinematics, most main quests are. Like it or not, but this is clearly developers' choice to do the main story in such a way, and it'll stay.

Well, yes. If you want to completely bypass the narrative sequence, you can't expect the story to accommodate that. The devs don't have unlimited resources. They're not going to have a completely new secret main quest where you didn't get shot and activate the chip, or where you and Jackie jumped into the sea and then sold the relic. Some games might allow more of that but their storytelling almost always suffers for it.
 
Well, yes. If you want to completely bypass the narrative sequence, you can't expect the story to accommodate that. The devs don't have unlimited resources. They're not going to have a completely new secret main quest where you didn't get shot and activate the chip, or where you and Jackie jumped into the sea and then sold the relic. Some games might allow more of that but their storytelling almost always suffers for it.
And i agree with this. Thing is, you entirely missed my point there, though.

The point is not that i want "another secret main story line". The point is that i want them to not fail with barriers which are placed to keep the player doing as intended.

As per above examples:

- since it must be impossible to jump off into the sea, then do NOT remove the insta-killing field few floors below until the end of the quest, yes?

- since it must be impossible to go via vertical ladder V and Jackie initially go towards, then prevent the player from being able to get back to it after jumping down, for example by adding an invisible wall above the spot where V and Jackie land after being shot, right after they go in, yes?

- since it must be impossible for V to avoid being knocked out by Dex's bodyguard and then shot dead by Dex, don't put the player in a situation where it seems one can avoid melee contact with the bodyguard: instead, for example have the quest to require V to go into the bathroom, have the door closed and then cutscene the punch as V exits the bathroom. And remove the possibility to never go into the bathroom while at it, of course.

Etc.

It's really widespread issue through the main story, not just the Heist quest and Meredith's ways as per 1st post in this topic. Like trying to drop all the attackers during Alt abduction scene. Like massive "walker" mech appearing outta thin air if the player is good enough to storm and overpower the four arasaka goons in Kompeki's hall during the escape. Like practical V's immortality during the chase scene right after V crawls outta the landfill, to the point it's possible to end up waking up in V's appartment with 0 health (and yet alive), with UI broken as a result in more than one way. The list goes on and on.

Oh and that said, in case of the Heist, i wouldn't actually be that much surprised if developers would actually implemented that "alternative way out" by jumping off the roof, with Jackie never shot, with the relic never damaged within Konpeki premises. It all could still easily be "wrapped back into" the following events by just one extra sequence in No Tell Motel, as follows:
- V and Jackie with intact relic come in;
- Dex is still pissed off about Soburo's death, and still tries to off V and Jackie with the help of his bodyguard;
- Jackie and V manage to win the fight, with Jackie suffering no major injury, but V suffering a bullet to the head;
- then Jackie calls Evelyn, asks what to do about seemingly dying V and dead Dex, to which Evelyn realises she'd never sell the relic with Dex and Soburo killed and Yorinobu involved in it all, and thus suggests plugging the relic to V, as a last resort try to maintain V's vitals.

There we go, everything would be the same, except Jackie would be not dead. By the time V is back in action after Viktor's care, then, Jackie is still alive but on the run: as we know, Arasaka is after him, after all they come to Viktor's and take Jackie's body if V tells Delamain to deliver his body to Viktor's (this is actually in the game, if you didn't know). So in this extra "Jackie survives" extra line, Jackie would be in hiding and outta Night City (arasaka's wasp nest). A few messages here and there from him as the story progresses wouldn't be too much extra effort to do, yes? After all, CDPR created one very special "voice mail" response if V ever calls Jackie's number after his death, as it is in the game already.

So it's all doable, you see. Not even oh so much effort, considering the Heist is effectively one of very two most important quests in the game (the other being, of course, endings).
 
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There does seem to be a general misunderstanding of what constitutes "effort", usually with the blithe assumption that whatever it is we want will be "really easy." I understand how it happens - some of my favorite RPGs of all time are 2D isometrics that struggle to even model different vertical levels, where a single line of voice acting means "THIS IS A BIG SCENE", like Fallout 2 or Age of Decadence - precisely because they offer so many choices, consequences, and linked story elements.

But even they have artificial barriers at some point. Doors that can't be opened, oceans that can't be jumped in, means of solving missions/quests that you can think of but somehow aren't implemented. In fact, they often use clever level design to force you into a handful of possible outcomes, and you never think twice. And I can 100% guarantee you that they are less resource, time, and programmer intensive than a graphically beautiful, first person, three-dimensional game.

Yet because we found some crazy bypass with the engine - let's use the "if you've managed to really power level your gear and have too much time on your hands, you can jump into the sea" as an example - we want an entirely different scene sequence. And then wait, we wouldn't wake up in a landfill - or if we did we'd need a WHOLE lotta explaining why our choom Jackie put us there- and Takemura wouldn't drag you to Vick's, and you would need a different reason to meet (let alone trust) him, and on and on. At best we're talking different lines, character modelling, etc. in dozens of scenes. At worst, entirely new sequences that inherently cut off other sequences. And then we say "it'll be easy - also, why does it take months to release DLC! And no crunching!"

And no doubt the reward for the hundreds or thousands of man hours would "WTF Bro, jackie is alive? Why can't I run missions with him - it's just character models right, I'm sure it'd be easy!"

At some point you are going to have to realize that what you have is a computer game, not a tabletop game with a GM who happens to snap his fingers and an army of coders somehow responds to you in real time.

Now, could the narrative use more branching options, more in-scene interactions, and a little more heft? Yep, sure could. That takes money, that takes hours. Hopefully they are spent well on real choices. I don't think "there's this crazy thing where if you jump into the water from the top of a skyscraper you die, but then there's a case where you don't if you deliberately find a hole in the game - so they tots owe me more plot Bro" is how to spend those resources.
 
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