Spoilers - about continuity of consciousness, soulkiller, and biochips

[capt.k]

I don't think it's a clear cut scenario which is why I have issue with the 'ending discussion' thread. I feel the assumption that the posters are taking of engram V being less than the "real" V is dismissive/reductive of the games ambiguity.

If you retain your mind, your memories and your notion of existence then I regard it as a 'perfect copy'. Something that sticks out to me is that when you're riding out with Panam at the end you have the choice to bring up Jackie and reminisce about him.

If a copy is indistinguishable from the real thing then how do you prove it's a copy?

So lets say that you are alive and well and one night a perfect clone of you is made with all of your memories. You survive this process and sleep through the night. When you wake up, you have a stroke during breakfast and die as a result. Your clone is made to replace you and life, for everyone, continues as if you did not die.

The philosophical issue here is not with everyone else or whether the future has changed with your death because you could argue in that case nothing has changed. The issue is that while you're having breakfast, you feel that stroke coming on. You're scared. You feel pain. And you lose all consciousness forever. To only the original you, the death IS IMPORTANT.

That is why, if you were actually V, you would not choose to get copied and killed.

 

[stndn]

So lets say that you are alive and well and one night a perfect clone of you is made with all of your memories. You survive this process and sleep through the night. When you wake up, you have a stroke during breakfast and die as a result. Your clone is made to replace you and life, for everyone, continues as if you did not die.

The philosophical issue here is not with everyone else or whether the future has changed with your death because you could argue in that case nothing has changed. The issue is that while you're having breakfast, you feel that stroke coming on. You're scared. You feel pain. And you lose all consciousness forever. To only the original you, the death IS IMPORTANT.

That is why, if you were actually V, you would not choose to get copied and killed.

Tbh if I was actually V I would probably try to euthanize myself and just end it altogether.

 

[lyin321]

So lets say that you are alive and well and one night a perfect clone of you is made with all of your memories. You survive this process and sleep through the night. When you wake up, you have a stroke during breakfast and die as a result. Your clone is made to replace you and life, for everyone, continues as if you did not die.

The philosophical issue here is not with everyone else or whether the future has changed with your death because you could argue in that case nothing has changed. The issue is that while you're having breakfast, you feel that stroke coming on. You're scared. You feel pain. And you lose all consciousness forever. To only the original you, the death IS IMPORTANT.

That is why, if you were actually V, you would not choose to get copied and killed.

....hmm I agree with you that V dies (although I really wish I get that ending as I don't like to speak blindly), but on the other hand if you have romanced someone and promised them 'happily ever after'? Lets say Judy. Yes I will totally make another me (and it will be me and not some me 2.0 or something) in that case....

 

[capt.k]

Tbh if I was actually V I would probably try to euthanize myself and just end it altogether.

You do you. I was just pointing out why some people might have an issue with a copy of V vs the original V.

Post automatically merged: Jan 1, 2021

....hmm I agree with you that V dies (although I really wish I get that ending as I don't like to speak blindly), but on the other hand if you have romanced someone and promised them 'happily ever after'? Lets say Judy. Yes I will totally make another me (and it will be me and not some me 2.0 or something) in that case....

Agreed. It must be exactly the same copy.

 

[Yllana_Ardais]

Interesting topic and the one thing I don't agree with when people in other threads compain that all the endings are terrible, because V dies after Alt Soulkills him. I think the endings are all crap, but not for this particular reason.

Isn't the question what a humand mind or soul really is one of the core concepts of Cyberpunk or even some brands of SF in general? You can find these debates in Ghost in the Shell, the Sprawl books, the Takeshi Kovacs books, in Bladerunner, PsychoPass, even Mass Effect.... There is not a definitive answer, but I think the most positive Cyberpunk/SF stories come to the conclusion, if you FEEL you have a soul and others accept you as a person (like with EDI or the geth in ME or the Puppet Master in GitS), then you DO have a soul, because this is what matters.

In the case of CP2077 I think it's pretty clear that for all intents and purposes V before and after getting Soulkilled by Alt is the same person. He doesn't even realize that he was Soulkilled, so for him, nothing has changed and in my interpretation, this is what matters.

Now I guess if you believe in an eternal soul in a strictly Christian sense, then this might be disturbing, but then I think all Cyberpunk stories must be hella disturbing to you to some extend.

 

[Witzzard]

Interesting topic and the one thing I don't agree with when people in other threads compain that all the endings are terrible, because V dies after Alt Soulkills him. I think the endings are all crap, but not for this particular reason.

Isn't the question what a humand mind or soul really is one of the core concepts of Cyberpunk or even some brands of SF in general? You can find these debates in Ghost in the Shell, the Sprawl books, the Takeshi Kovacs books, in Bladerunner, PsychoPass, even Mass Effect.... There is not a definitive answer, but I think the most positive Cyberpunk/SF stories come to the conclusion, if you FEEL you have a soul and others accept you as a person (like with EDI or the geth in ME or the Puppet Master in GitS), then you DO have a soul, because this is what matters.

In the case of CP2077 I think it's pretty clear that for all intents and purposes V before and after getting Soulkilled by Alt is the same person. He doesn't even realize that he was Soulkilled, so for him, nothing has changed and in my interpretation, this is what matters.

Now I guess if you believe in an eternal soul in a strictly Christian sense, then this might be disturbing, but then I think all Cyberpunk stories must be hella disturbing to you to some extend.

Nah... there are so to say two sides to this.
The view of other onto the subject and the subjects view onto himself.

Your self-conciousness is your internal view - getting drunk (or otherwise drugged), or a getting a concussion - and you only partially recognize what might change in your behaviour, while your mind is definately altered even if just temporarily. You yourself feel quite "normal". Someone externally looking at you, might recognize though, that you're not acting as your usual self.
On the other hand, you putting on a smile when you could cry - is you recognizing a difference in yourself, something another person might not see.

And because of this you can discuss the differences here.
V herself might actually vanish when killed by Soulkiller and be replaced by a copy that will act in all ways the same - but the internal conciousness of the first V is or might be gone.
For the external viewer, he's not seeing the difference of what has happenend internally. V acts the same before and after.

But if you read what people write upon the Saburo or Jackie Engram you might meet - those copies don't even seem to be completly mirroring what the originals were.

Now the great point your reach towards and others have commented upon - is that you as a player, get to see what happens after the Soulkiller, which could imply the conciousness keeps existing. But imo that's why R. Talorians twitter accoount liking the difference between Transhumanism and Dystopian Cyberpunk is implicative (imo) of this not being done to actually take a position to what actually happens when Soulkiller is used or a contrarian oppinion of CDPR to that of Pondsmith.

-edit-
To add another parabel - as people use the hammer idea - if changing first the head and then the handle of hammer, if it's still the same hammer.
Now the analogue here would be taking your hammer and replacing the head with a carbon copy of it and then throwing the old head away - Is the object you get still your same hammer?
And what difference does it make for the hammer head, if it had an actual mind.

 

[Yllana_Ardais]

the difference is that the hammerhead is just a physical object that doesn't contain anything. So if you exchange the material of the hammer, it is a identical looking hammer, but not the same as before.

But what makes a human mind unique are the memories, feelings, their charcter etc. The software, so to speak. An if you upload the same software onto new hardware (into Mikoshi and back into V's body), the core of what makes V V should still be intact.

At least that's my interpretation.

 

[Witzzard]

the difference is that the hammerhead is just a physical object that doesn't contain anything. So if you exchange the material of the hammer, it is a identical looking hammer, but not the same as before.

But what makes a human mind unique are the memories, feelings, their charcter etc. The software, so to speak. An if you upload the same software onto new hardware (into Mikoshi and back into V's body), the core of what makes V V should still be intact.

At least that's my interpretation.

V is the core of what makes V, she's not part software and part hardware, to begin with. But even with Alt in a philosophical situation whereas a person is distinguishable core and hardware, no you cannot put the core back into the hardware, as it doesn't stand intact - as Alt tells you. So i got to disagree because of Alts comments on it - otherwise i'd even agree.

But as we're talking philosophically destruction / recreation and if the temporary destruction - which it would be if copying takes a "time tick" - does the temporary destruction mean? And how much time would it take to make it mean something?
Naturally it would take only as much time as recognition does take to make a difference for the collective memory of the observers, right?
Now, what does the subjective observe?
Now, if it doesn't take a time tick, did you even disconnect both then?

So let's go a strange other example. With the snap of an finger i can clone one of our (let's assume for the sake of the argument we got one together) loved ones. Now, i destroy one or the other - did i just destroy the loved one?
And if i do that copying and the copy comes into existance on the right side and i don't destroy one - which one is the actual loved one?

So yeah, you can ask a lot of questions in regards to that and i happily accept your interpretation. But i think the games is still hinting in another direction. And i funnily like and dislike that decision in somewhat similar ways.
Cool to go ask this question not for an externally experienced character, but the one your playing, but it's so darn dystopian

 

[Yllana_Ardais]

not sure the game is sure what it's hinting at at the moment XD I think it offers different interpretations. Alt's who says you are not the same, Johnny, who still feels he is himself and V, who didn't even realize he was soulkilled. Who says Alt has to be right and not Johnny? She doesn't even have a real concept of what being human means anymore.

Again, just my interpretation, but my takeaway is - mind over matter. If V feels he is himself and behaves like the moment before he was zapped, then for me, it's the same person.
But this is what I like about Cyberpunk stories: they make you think, but don't offer solutions set in stone, in the end a lot of this depends on your own interpretation.

The thing with the two loved ones being cloned ist tricky. The moment they are cloned, they are the same person, as soon as they start having separate experiences, they will develop into two distinct entities. I guess you'd have to pick one and stick with them.

 

[Subenu]

V is the core of what makes V, she's not part software and part hardware, to begin with. But even with Alt in a philosophical situation whereas a person is distinguishable core and hardware, no you cannot put the core back into the hardware, as it doesn't stand intact - as Alt tells you. So i got to disagree because of Alts comments on it - otherwise i'd even agree.

But as we're talking philosophically destruction / recreation and if the temporary destruction - which it would be if copying takes a "time tick" - does the temporary destruction mean? And how much time would it take to make it mean something?
Naturally it would take only as much time as recognition does take to make a difference for the collective memory of the observers, right?
Now, what does the subjective observe?
Now, if it doesn't take a time tick, did you even disconnect both then?

So let's go a strange other example. With the snap of an finger i can clone one of our (let's assume for the sake of the argument we got one together) loved ones. Now, i destroy one or the other - did i just destroy the loved one?
And if i do that copying and the copy comes into existance on the right side and i don't destroy one - which one is the actual loved one?

So yeah, you can ask a lot of questions in regards to that and i happily accept your interpretation. But i think the games is still hinting in another direction. And i funnily like and dislike that decision in somewhat similar ways.
Cool to go ask this question not for an externally experienced character, but the one your playing, but it's so darn dystopian

I generally agree with you here, but even though short, I want to ask you if this also factors in any behavior or "manipulation" (lie) which Alt (or others in this regard) might or might not do to get V to do something so they can achieve their goal?

In my opinion you have good arguments, but that is if we only take everything we get told as true, isn't it?

 

[Tigrevolution]

There's no straight answer.

Altered Carbon is basically people teleporting to different planets using "stacks" (integrated devices grafted into their spines that act as a consciousness). Their bodies are called "sleeves" which they can slip in and out of provided the stack is ok.

Star Trek outright uses technology that strips you down into pure energy and reassembles you on the other side. The question of whether Picard is still Picard after leaving the teleporter never comes up.

A lot of sci-fi shows skirt around the topic without really questioning it. It's just assumed that consciousness and/or the "soul" is intrinsically maintained during the process.

Anyways, I don't really think there's a distinction between V and engram V. Things to note is that:

• V is never disconnected from Soulkiller (the way Alt is) and maintains a connection to his original body (hence why he's able to go back).
• V maintains consciousness, memories, experiences, and emotions while in Mikoshi.
• Alt mentions that it won't be the same but it's incredibly ambiguous. She could be referring to any number of things not being the same (like V's body basically killing himself whereas Johnny was assimilating it).
• He isn't 'dead' dead. He's just a vegetable with little to no brain activity. It's implied SK can restore the original mind as well. Our brains use electrical signals like a computer, so I can imagine it's just the memories and experiences being restored to the husk through the already existing slots in V's skull. Like a clinically dead patient coming back to life miraculously.

This isn't really an objective thing though, as @Silariell mentioned. Sci-fi shows can't really answer this question and neither can Cyberpunk. In any case, the writers don't seem to make any allusion to V not being V.

I'll defer to typical sci-fi techno-babble that explains this stuff as unimportant to the overall plot.

Yeah, your notes are on point. I saw an article in a science mag (that I forgot the name of) theorizing on how one could transfer their consciousness to an artificial sleeve (so basically an engram). The solution they came up with was basically what you said plus some extra:

1) You connect to the artificial sleeve.

2) Your consciousness simultaneously exists at the sleeve and your organic body for a while.

3) Your organic body is killed, so your consciousness only remains on the artificial sleeve.

4) Since your consciousness is never severed, it is still the "original" you and you are now practically immortal.

 

[Witzzard]

I generally agree with you here, but even though short, I want to ask you if this also factors in any behavior or "manipulation" (lie) which Alt (or others in this regard) might or might not do to get V to do something so they can achieve their goal?

In my opinion you have good arguments, but that is if we only take everything we get told as true, isn't it?

Certainly.

The question would be what Alt motives might be. Apparently she wants into Mikoshi, so why tell your character - before you're in Mikoshi - that you're going to loose yourself/your soul? I mean to a lot of people, meaning us discussing it specifically - i guess, it's quite the repellent to go ahead with the Mikoshi idea, right?
And the whole discussion in Mikoshi about who stays behind is also quite a deterent on who should stay behind or not, because if Alt wanted you to stay - she wouldn't have talked about dangers for V and how her survival there isn't guaranteed. At the same time - if she wanted V to go back - why tell her the 6 month thing exactly? (Besides an maybe upcoming DLC whereas she dangles another carrot in front of you)

@Yllana_Ardais
It's all certainly up to personal interpretations.
Thanks for sharing thoughts with me

 

[LedAstray]

Ok, so I feel like I must throw in some of my insights.

Alt seems to contradict herself to some extent - she says V will loose his soul, but then again states he would only "die" if he was disconnected.
She also as far as I remember does not mention copying his consciousness, but she calls it transferring it.
The way I understand it is that continuity of V's consciousness or self awareness is not broken or disturbed. He is still connected via personal link.

The same cannot be said about Johnny or Saburo, or even Alt.

Jackie is another story entirely as he was copied some time after his death using the first version of engram.

So as far as Cyberpunk and V's continuity goes, I'm more convinced V is still V, as in subjectively and objectively. He is not a mere copy.

Sadly, I think Johnny is a copy though. Original Johnny died, because connection was broken and his personality copied into relic, while the original got destroyed and body dumped.

The same goes for Saburo - I think it's even worse in his case.
His engram would have to be created either shortly before his death (which implies it's a copy)
or soon after, as opposed to Johnny's.

As for problem of continuity in general - all the answers are in the link provided in the first post.
I think if we would copy someone exactly and then destroy the original, there is no continuity. The original dies, his consciousness ends here and there, while the copy lives on.
If you were to be copied with exacts same qualities i.e. memories and personality, you still perceive yourself subjectively as you, while the copy is a separate entity. You no longer have access to the copy's experiences, so if you were disintegrated it would be your end while the copy lives on.

But it is not what happens to V, there is no copying and destroying involved, just the transfer there and back again.
What Alt said about soul could mean something entirely different, or perhaps it is a fact that V's body would be empty for a brief moment. Dunno.

 

[Willowhugger]

I think Johnny Silverhand best said it in Sinnerman.

V: Do you ever worry if you're in cyber-hell or heaven or is this the real you?

Johnny: No, I don't worry because it's a stupid fucking argument. I'm me and that's all that matters.

 

[Witzzard]

I think Johnny Silverhand best said it in Sinnerman.

V: Do you ever worry if you're in cyber-hell or heaven or is this the real you?

Johnny: No, I don't worry because it's a stupid fucking argument. I'm me and that's all that matters.

That's great.. but you get the difference between retrospective vs. prospective.
Yes he doesn't care, because if he's just a copy he couldn't change it either way, it already happenend, therefore he is him - simple.
V is currently (allegedly) herself. But a future active decision of V might change it, so it matters and isn't a simple hand waving.

I mean the best argument for you should rather be, that it doesn't matter for us as a player, as we're able to play V after the fact..

 

[Willowhugger]

That's great.. but you get the difference between retrospective vs. prospective.
Yes he doesn't care, because if he's just a copy he couldn't change it either way, it already happenend, therefore he is him - simple.
V is currently (allegedly) herself. But a future active decision of V might change it, so it matters and isn't a simple hand waving.

I mean the best argument for you should rather be, that it doesn't matter for us as a player, as we're able to play V after the fact..

I think it goes beyond this because V has minutes maybe, probably hours at best, to live when he uploads himself to Mikoshi (or herself). At that point, they become the Engram. Then the Engram can either be put back in the body which is just a vessel for it or go on to a new life among the machines.

Now you can call this death or transformation but plenty of people in RL want to leave legacies to carry on. Whether it is "you" doesn't necessarily mean that much in the face of death.

Continuity of consciousness will be fine for the Engram. Bodily V? Well they won't notice because they're dead.

 

[Witzzard]

I think it goes beyond this because V has minutes maybe, probably hours at best, to live when he uploads himself to Mikoshi (or herself). At that point, they become the Engram. Then the Engram can either be put back in the body which is just a vessel for it or go on to a new life among the machines.

Now you can call this death or transformation but plenty of people in RL want to leave legacies to carry on. Whether it is "you" doesn't necessarily mean that much in the face of death.

Continuity of consciousness will be fine for the Engram. Bodily V? Well they won't notice because they're dead.

That's completly true.
In my opinion it would have been an interesting and good ending whereas V goes - "Nah i'm already dead. But i can leave a good copy behind for those people who seemingly need me.".
But that doesn't happen. It's a so wierd to me. As they've done a lot of good writing in the game, specifically on the characters, but they muddled the whole stuff in regards to what it means that much, that it doesn't resonate with anyone truly imo.