[SPOILERS] After everything that happened V needs a win

[amikae]

We play as the copy V so that the game has some kind of ending and doesn't just black screen at Mikoshi. You don't even play as only V throughout the whole game, anyways, so I don't think the continuity of "still playing as V" matters.

Data doesn't move. Data is only copied and deleted. If the mind was "digitized", it's now data and subject to those facts.

Something I've not been able to get out of Soulkiller deniers, what do you think the bad thing about Soulkiller is, then? Alt says you'll lose something critically important. The reaction to having Soulkiller used on you in the net without your consent is obviously considered even by V to be a bad thing. What's the downside to Soulkiller?

I think the discussion needs to move past this point, as a solid conclusion cannot be reached, since it's become more of a philosophical question about the consciousness versus the soul. Regardless my whole point was, soulkiller or not, V and in proxy us, have been subjugated and defeated by the story at every critical point so far. So really the people who say we want a happy ending or something along those lines don't have solid grounds to stand on. We don't want a happy ending, I just feel that V needs a win. For her, for us.

Even as a character V is a massive asset to both fixers and corpos in Night City. She's arguably the most talented merc in the city on the road to become a legend and the whole merc angle works great with the open world nature of the game, but at this moment it's completely overshadowed by the story. V doesn't need to beat Arasaka, but she does need to win over this death sentence and come back stronger, be the merc she was supposed to be, not a play thing in the Arasaka power struggles. Which is what both V and Johny are. Ultimately whatever happens, it's about who sits at the throne of Arasaka and I don't think that even Corpo V cares at this point.

 

[Buckadoz]

I think the discussion needs to move past this point, as a solid conclusion cannot be reached, since it's become more of a philosophical question about the consciousness versus the soul. Regardless my whole point was, soulkiller or not, V and in proxy us, have been subjugated and defeated by the story at every critical point so far. So really the people who say we want a happy ending or something along those lines don't have solid grounds to stand on. We don't want a happy ending, I just feel that V needs a win. For her, for us.

Even as a character V is a massive asset to both fixers and corpos in Night City. She's arguably the most talented merc in the city on the road to become a legend and the whole merc angle works great with the open world nature of the game, but at this moment it's completely overshadowed by the story. V doesn't need to beat Arasaka, but she does need to win over this death sentence and come back stronger, be the merc she was supposed to be, not a play thing in the Arasaka power struggles. Which is what both V and Johny are. Ultimately whatever happens, it's about who sits at the throne of Arasaka and I don't think that even Corpo V cares at this point.

I think this point is one of the only things that matters, because if I'm right then any ending that starts with Alt using Soulkiller can never be the ending you want.

 

[Kikinho]

This thread probably will be merged into this one.
https://forums.cdprojektred.com/index.php?threads/spoiler-alert-about-the-endings.11041109/page-156

 

[glitr]

The female voice actress for V did such an outstanding job

100% agree, could really feel the strength of each word

If there is ever a DLC about V, we need to get a clear win, no questions, full stop. Otherwise it just feels terrible playing the game post ending. Because V is great and deserves that win!

Here's hoping,
They even make a joke about "open endings" in a side quest. pretty funny.
[It's the one with the preacher outside Vics/Mistys if you're wondering]

I'm looking forward to it, there is so much potential to this style of game I would love to see it thrive and continue the story with V, or at least if we do ultimately get sucked into Mikoshi the "identity" of "V"

 

[sihplak]

We play as the copy V so that the game has some kind of ending and doesn't just black screen at Mikoshi. You don't even play as only V throughout the whole game, anyways, so I don't think the continuity of "still playing as V" matters.

Data doesn't move. Data is only copied and deleted. If the mind was "digitized", it's now data and subject to those facts.

Something I've not been able to get out of Soulkiller deniers, what do you think the bad thing about Soulkiller is, then? Alt says you'll lose something critically important. The reaction to having Soulkiller used on you in the net without your consent is obviously considered even by V to be a bad thing. What's the downside to Soulkiller?

Regarding the first part, I disagree there -- even reliving Johnny's memories, it's still V's experience of those memories since her and Johnny are both occupying the mind at that time.

The issue with the interpretation of "Soulkiller" is what is meant by "soul" -- the idea of it is that, in its earliest versions, Soulkiller copied the mind and consciousness but stripped away the personality over time. Alt herself as we see her in her digitized form is Alt after soulkiller has taken effect; her personality gone, her mind remains. Being hit by soulkiller, only if you choose to be forever digitized, does your soul wither away. It is when your engram becomes put back into your body that everything becomes connected again.

This also has to do with the relic technology; Relic v.1 emulated a non-self aware mind. Relic v.2, from what everything I think seems to imply, allows for the transference of an entire consciousness.

In other words, Soulkiller has been used by Arasaka on many people to trap them in Mikoshi as data, strip away their personalities and store their minds. In the case of V, the consequence of Soulkiller in the immediate, forseeable future, is the terminal consequence of seemingly definite death. However, I think with the Aldecaldo's ending's implied outcomes, that this is not guaranteed, so much as simply expected by those that embody the various aspects of Night City, such as Alt and Johnny.

This is all to say that, Soulkiller's downsides are not in its immediate usage, its in many of its intended uses.

Besides, as a sci-fi game of its type, Cyberpunk relies innately on "fantasy" technology, or in other words, technology that doesn't have to rely on what we understand as possible or feasible in the real world. As such, I think it is perfectly reasonable to see this set of outcomes as a legitimate interpretation.

It isn't "denying Soulkiller", it is examining what is does. Quoting the Cyberpunk wiki, "Soulkiller virus is a program capable of creating a digital emulation or copy of a netrunner's mind, utilizing an advanced matrix recorder storing it in a huge database. It then wipes the original personality away, leaving a mindless husk that eventually dies". In other terms, an engram fully digitized is what will have its soul killed, most notably, when used in its intended, mass-data storage way. In the case of Johnny's relic, the Soulkiller was used to store him on a single individual relic, IIRC because it was a prototype of the relic Arasaka wanted to develop to basically establish true immortality by transferring ones full consciousness and soul between bodies. Thereby, Soulkiller only destroys the soul/original consciousness should it remain in Cyberspace forever or should it be trapped in somewhere like Mikoshi; this is evident, I think, by Johnny's engram's interactions with V; I very much think that Johnny's Relic is storing his full original conscious being and mind, and I think that is the implication throughout. And, besides all of that, even if there is no clear definitive answer or CDPR wants it to be intentionally vague, I would rather stick to this conclusion which I feel is well-evidenced enough to feel correct to me, than to simply give into a nihilistic, hopeless conception of the ending.

 

[Buckadoz]

Regarding the first part, I disagree there -- even reliving Johnny's memories, it's still V's experience of those memories since her and Johnny are both occupying the mind at that time.

The issue with the interpretation of "Soulkiller" is what is meant by "soul" -- the idea of it is that, in its earliest versions, Soulkiller copied the mind and consciousness but stripped away the personality over time. Alt herself as we see her in her digitized form is Alt after soulkiller has taken effect; her personality gone, her mind remains. Being hit by soulkiller, only if you choose to be forever digitized, does your soul wither away. It is when your engram becomes put back into your body that everything becomes connected again.

This also has to do with the relic technology; Relic v.1 emulated a non-self aware mind. Relic v.2, from what everything I think seems to imply, allows for the transference of an entire consciousness.

In other words, Soulkiller has been used by Arasaka on many people to trap them in Mikoshi as data, strip away their personalities and store their minds. In the case of V, the consequence of Soulkiller in the immediate, forseeable future, is the terminal consequence of seemingly definite death. However, I think with the Aldecaldo's ending's implied outcomes, that this is not guaranteed, so much as simply expected by those that embody the various aspects of Night City, such as Alt and Johnny.

This is all to say that, Soulkiller's downsides are not in its immediate usage, its in many of its intended uses.

Besides, as a sci-fi game of its type, Cyberpunk relies innately on "fantasy" technology, or in other words, technology that doesn't have to rely on what we understand as possible or feasible in the real world. As such, I think it is perfectly reasonable to see this set of outcomes as a legitimate interpretation.

It isn't "denying Soulkiller", it is examining what is does. Quoting the Cyberpunk wiki, "Soulkiller virus is a program capable of creating a digital emulation or copy of a netrunner's mind, utilizing an advanced matrix recorder storing it in a huge database. It then wipes the original personality away, leaving a mindless husk that eventually dies". In other terms, an engram fully digitized is what will have its soul killed, most notably, when used in its intended, mass-data storage way. In the case of Johnny's relic, the Soulkiller was used to store him on a single individual relic, IIRC because it was a prototype of the relic Arasaka wanted to develop to basically establish true immortality by transferring ones full consciousness and soul between bodies. Thereby, Soulkiller only destroys the soul/original consciousness should it remain in Cyberspace forever or should it be trapped in somewhere like Mikoshi; this is evident, I think, by Johnny's engram's interactions with V; I very much think that Johnny's Relic is storing his full original conscious being and mind, and I think that is the implication throughout. And, besides all of that, even if there is no clear definitive answer or CDPR wants it to be intentionally vague, I would rather stick to this conclusion which I feel is well-evidenced enough to feel correct to me, than to simply give into a nihilistic, hopeless conception of the ending.

"It then wipes the original personality away"

Who are you, if not the original personality? When Alt tells you, "Your consciousness, your neural engrams, will be recorded. Everything else will cease to exist." What is the "everything else"? She even straight up refers to you as "your engram copy" when you're in cyberspace at the end. Everything you've said is only supported by the desire to, as you say, not give into how bad the ending actually is.

 

[amikae]

"It then wipes the original personality away"

Who are you, if not the original personality? When Alt tells you, "Your consciousness, your neural engrams, will be recorded. Everything else will cease to exist." What is the "everything else"? She even straight up refers to you as "your engram copy" when you're in cyberspace at the end. Everything you've said is only supported by the desire to, as you say, not give into how bad the ending actually is.

The reason I think the whole soulkiller discussion isn't as important is because Soulkiller makes a complete transfer of consciousness. Meaning that in theory V1 and V2 can both exist, and are both identical. So the question remains of who was in the body first, not if V2 isn't the real V, because it is. Everything up to the Soulkiller split, every thought, every experience, every emotion, is preserved in both V1 and V2.

If V1 dies and V2 is preserved, how can you say it's not the original V, when it's literally the exact same consciousness, same memories, experiences, emotions, personality.

In fact the whole argument Alt puts forward is ridiculous. In 2077, in a society that has created the likes of Adam Smasher 96% machine, for a former netrunner and current AI to argue about losing your soul I find to be ridiculous. You can change your whole body and that doesn't change the original you, but touching your mind, that's where we draw the line?

I do agree that a purist ending should have existed. In the Arasaka ending they manage to remove the Relic successfully, so it can be done. The question then returns to the fact that V is screwed again, dying. That's my whole point, whatever path we take, V is always the one that pays the ultimate price.

V represents us and CDProjekt should throw us a bone at some point. Soulkiller, immortality, Arasaka, dying, all this needs to be put to bed in a definitive way. Either we die or we beat this and move on. For this reason I think right now the only ending that makes sense at this moment is the suicide ending. With all the information at hand, everything V has suffered, it makes the most sense. Every other option gets people killed and achieves nothing. Arasaka is unbeatable, V has at most 6 more months to live. Suicide is the only option that leads to a real conclusion. And I hate how much sense it makes.

 

[Buckadoz]

If V1 dies and V2 is preserved, how can you say it's not the original V, when it's literally the exact same consciousness, same memories, experiences, emotions, personality.

I mean, you just said it yourself. For V2, everything feels the same, but V1 dies -- that is, that sense of self ends when Soulkiller hits.

The V that was actually there (V1) when Jackie died, when she was told she was dying, who spent the entire game fighting for her life -- all of her experiences end when Soulkiller hits. For the person you played the whole game, the "I" when she says "I am", it's lights out when she plugs into Mikoshi. All that's left is V2, that only remembers doing those things.

 

[Motsie]

The reason I think the whole soulkiller discussion isn't as important is because Soulkiller makes a complete transfer of consciousness. Meaning that in theory V1 and V2 can both exist, and are both identical. So the question remains of who was in the body first, not if V2 isn't the real V, because it is. Everything up to the Soulkiller split, every thought, every experience, every emotion, is preserved in both V1 and V2.

If V1 dies and V2 is preserved, how can you say it's not the original V, when it's literally the exact same consciousness, same memories, experiences, emotions, personality.

In fact the whole argument Alt puts forward is ridiculous. In 2077, in a society that has created the likes of Adam Smasher 96% machine, for a former netrunner and current AI to argue about losing your soul I find to be ridiculous. You can change your whole body and that doesn't change the original you, but touching your mind, that's where we draw the line?

I do agree that a purist ending should have existed. In the Arasaka ending they manage to remove the Relic successfully, so it can be done. The question then returns to the fact that V is screwed again, dying. That's my whole point, whatever path we take, V is always the one that pays the ultimate price.

V represents us and CDProjekt should throw us a bone at some point. Soulkiller, immortality, Arasaka, dying, all this needs to be put to bed in a definitive way. Either we die or we beat this and move on. For this reason I think right now the only ending that makes sense at this moment is the suicide ending. With all the information at hand, everything V has suffered, it makes the most sense. Every other option gets people killed and achieves nothing. Arasaka is unbeatable, V has at most 6 more months to live. Suicide is the only option that leads to a real conclusion. And I hate how much sense it makes.

Correct. It doesn't put to bed the entire debacle of the Ship of Theseus or the teleportation paradox, but Alt outright says your consciousness is part of the transfer.

 

[Buckadoz]

part of the transfer.

*recording

 

[Motsie]

*recording

Teleportation paradox.

 

[Buckadoz]

Teleportation paradox.

Not sure what this has to do with anything aside from the fact that you seem to think just bringing up Star Trek discounts what the game says. Just don't want to muddle what Alt said any more than it already is.

 

[amikae]

*recording

How does this prove that V2 isn't V? How do you prove you are you?

 

[Motsie]

Not sure what this has to do with anything aside from the fact that you seem to think just bringing up Star Trek discounts what the game says. Just don't want to muddle what Alt said any more than it already is.

I don't know how else to explain it to you and there's no muddying the waters here. Teleportation paradox isn't a Star Trek discount. It's an entire philosophical talking point that you seem to have figured out the answer to.

This whole discussion on whether the recorded consciousness is not the original consciousness is impossible to answer. We literally do not possess any quantifiable means of measuring what a soul or consciousness is. It is not a physical entity.

Every single piece of science fiction that has dealt with this topic either skips it entirely, or just maintains that the consciousness' integrity is maintained in the transfer.