[SPOILERS FOR TW1/2/3] Triss Merigold - master manipulator or a victim of circumstance?

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@Goodmongo - Moderator response: The player's romance choices don't really have any relevance in this discussion, nor does Yen's behaviour. This isn't a Triss vs Yen thread. And I don't think it'll be beneficial to the discussion to use terms such as "condemn", which isn't the tone being used by anyone here.

@Trireme - I think that it was a deliberate decision not to follow-up on most of the TW2 politics to that extent, given that the game needed to be playable stand-alone, and also by players who had followed the Roche path in TW2, which means they wouldn't have met Philippa. I agree with your assessment of Triss's behaviour though, especially this:

Now once again Triss's personal feelings and political ambitions align themselves- she wants to save as many mages as possible, and helping them escape to Kovir gives her a loyal faction to support her politically in Tancred's court. If she can install herself as Tancred's advisor,
which is my reason for limiting my definition as "ambitious" rather than "manipulative" as far as politics are concerned.

To me, being manipulative would mean that she was willing to harm innocents in order to get what she wanted. Climbing to the top of the ladder by kicking others off. That still comes back to the summit at Loc Muinne, and I still think she had legitimate reasons for outing the Lodge, that "furthering her career" was at best a secondary motive, not the primary one.
 
Was Triss manipulative? Probably yes. But was she any more manipulative than Yen? Probably not.

So if you condemn Triss for being manipulative shouldn't you hold Yen to the same standard? And if you do then shouldn't the Three to Tango quest be the proper ending?

All sorceress are manipulative to a degree. Some hide it better, some less so.

This is a thread about how Triss was manipulative and a discussion about that. It's not a thread about labeling other characters with the trait, they might or not possess. Without a tie to the discussion, of course.
Similar to how discussing the topic of Stalin's atrocities isn't a place for saying "B-but Hitler was doing similar things too".

Just stick with Triss.
 
I'm playing my first game since the 1.10 patch and have come across the added content regarding Triss and romancing her. Honestly, how can anyone claim manipulative in reference to Geralt? The only way you can still make that claim is if you also believe she is lying about her feelings in the new content.

What I actually find a little manipulative is the very premise and first post. The later scenario makes the claim that she is using Geralt even in TW3. Yet we have prima facie evidence to contradict that claim. We must judge her by what she actually says and how can anyone claim that she is not completely in love with Geralt?

Maybe a case can still be argued that her dealings with the lodge were not honest but as for her dealings with Geralt. Occam's razor here.
 
I'm playing my first game since the 1.10 patch and have come across the added content regarding Triss and romancing her. Honestly, how can anyone claim manipulative in reference to Geralt? The only way you can still make that claim is if you also believe she is lying about her feelings in the new content.

What I actually find a little manipulative is the very premise and first post. The later scenario makes the claim that she is using Geralt even in TW3. Yet we have prima facie evidence to contradict that claim. We must judge her by what she actually says and how can anyone claim that she is not completely in love with Geralt?

Maybe a case can still be argued that her dealings with the lodge were not honest but as for her dealings with Geralt. Occam's razor here.

Manipulation does not exclude the possibility of real feelings, on the contrary. You can, for instance, manipulate someone you are interested in romantically into caring about you and becoming involved in your life. Or you can manipulate someone you love and who loves you back into accepting a scenario they might not otherwise find themselves comfortable in, on account of their feelings for you. And you can do it calculatingly (which is usually the case), and you can do it without even recognizing it as manipulation. You can do it with good/neutral intentions, and you can do it out of selfishness.

All of that can be debated in regards to Triss. Her relationship with Geralt is very much in a gray area. (The same could be argued about his relationship with Yennefer, not that it matters in this discussion.)
 
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Manipulation does not exclude the possibility of real feelings, on the contrary.

Absolutely, and I think that Triss manipulated Geralt in TW1 and TW2 because she was in love with him. In TW1, I think I'd consider it fairly calculated, but with good intentions, that she genuinely believed that it would be better not just for her but also for Geralt if he were to forget about Yen and his past and start a new life with her. In TW2, I think that the Rose was a moment of panic (I also like to think that if she hadn't been captured, she'd have had second thoughts and not gone through with it).
 
Maybe a case can still be argued that her dealings with the lodge were not honest but as for her dealings with Geralt. Occam's razor here.

Not only that, but the Lodge stuff is the only thing she can ever be confronted about in the games (the long conversation in the third chapter of TW2). That should tell something about the writers' intentions. Regarding her relationship with Geralt, the only questionable thing that is not a conspiracy theory is not telling about his past while he has amnesia, and even that is more of a game design choice (as no one ever names Yennefer in TW1, nor is she in any of the books in that game) than intentionally making the character a "manipulator". And when it comes to conspiracy theories, the burden of proof is of course on the one making the accusation.
 
Manipulation does not exclude the possibility of real feelings, on the contrary. You can, for instance, manipulate someone you are interested in romantically into caring about you and becoming involved in your life.

Remember the definition of manipulation is the controlling of something or someone. So as people claim Triss manipulated Geralt exactly how did she control him? See I'm challenging the term "manipulation". Not telling Geralt about Yen does not meet the definition of manipulation. It doesn't force Geralt to carre or love Triss.

Geralt could easily love Triss with or without knowing about Yen. They are two separate feelings. It is very common for people to love more than one person. So please help me understand and explain exactly how Triss manipulated Geralt into loving her.
 
Remember the definition of manipulation is the controlling of something or someone. So as people claim Triss manipulated Geralt exactly how did she control him? See I'm challenging the term "manipulation". Not telling Geralt about Yen does not meet the definition of manipulation. It doesn't force Geralt to carre or love Triss.

Geralt could easily love Triss with or without knowing about Yen. They are two separate feelings. It is very common for people to love more than one person. So please help me understand and explain exactly how Triss manipulated Geralt into loving her.

My post was meant more as an example of manipulation when real feelings are involved. I don't think she manipulated him into loving her because, firstly, I don't think you can manipulate someone into falling in love, just into becoming invested in you. Secondly, I myself don't adhere to the idea that Geralt ever fell in love with Triss, despite the beginning of TW2. And also, manipulation does not necessarily involve control over someone Manchurian Candidate style. Influencing someone one way or another, by withholding information or otherwise, in order to achieve a goal, even an emotional one, is enough to qualify.

As for why Triss can be seen as manipulative, well, to begin with, she holds all the cards at the start of her relationship with Geralt in TW1. She knows his history, his feelings for Yennefer, and his lack of romantical feelings for her. She controls the amount and the nature of the information given to a man who has suffered a trauma that has affected his memory. She initiates a romantic relationship with a vulnerable person who has rejected her in the past and, simultaneously and perhaps inadvertently, drags him precisely into what she is interested in but knows very well he detests: a political hotchpotch. She only decides to clue him on his past with the other woman when she is given no other choice.

Basically, what this whole romantic manipulation thing boils down to for me is that just because you have the hots for someone doesn't mean anything goes.
 
I would say that Triss was set on obtaining Geralt's affections. Even by TW3 she openly admits to seduction to Geralt. In the books she's of the same mold, trying to take advantage of the gap that widens between Geralt and Yennefer at various times.
 
My post was meant more as an example of manipulation when real feelings are involved. I don't think she manipulated him into loving her because, firstly, I don't think you can manipulate someone into falling in love, just into becoming invested in you. Secondly, I myself don't adhere to the idea that Geralt ever fell in love with Triss, despite the beginning of TW2. And also, manipulation does not necessarily involve control over someone Manchurian Candidate style. Influencing someone one way or another, by withholding information or otherwise, in order to achieve a goal, even an emotional one, is enough to qualify.

As for why Triss can be seen as manipulative, well, to begin with, she holds all the cards at the start of her relationship with Geralt in TW1. She knows his history, his feelings for Yennefer, and his lack of romantical feelings for her. She controls the amount and the nature of the information given to a man who has suffered a trauma that has affected his memory. She initiates a romantic relationship with a vulnerable person who has rejected her in the past and, simultaneously and perhaps inadvertently, drags him precisely into what she is interested in but knows very well he detests: a political hotchpotch. She only decides to clue him on his past with the other woman when she is given no other choice.

Basically, what this whole romantic manipulation thing boils down to for me is that just because you have the hots for someone doesn't mean anything goes.

Geralt may not have loved her. Who knows if a fictional character loved anyone?

Manipulation has a very specific definition and meaning. It is defined the same way in dozens of dictionaries. Neither you nor I can alter that meaning in any authoritative way. So Triss did all you say but it never reaches the level of manipulation. Pleas show me any authoritative definition that would substantiate you using the word "manipulation". And personal feelings or opinions don't count when it comes to actual facts.

As I said in another post she can't even be accused of lying by omission as it never reaches the required level of that definition. And yes I'm being VERY techinical and exact. Words have meanings .

And no I don't have the hots for Triss. She's interesting but not my cup of tea. I'm agnostic when it comes to Triss or Yen. To be honest my ideal is Bastila from KOTOR. But I think if you apply some standard to character A then you need to apply that exact same standard to character B or else it's hypocritical.
 
Manipulation has a very specific definition and meaning. It is defined the same way in dozens of dictionaries. Neither you nor I can alter that meaning in any authoritative way. So Triss did all you say but it never reaches the level of manipulation. Pleas show me any authoritative definition that would substantiate you using the word "manipulation". And personal feelings or opinions don't count when it comes to actual facts.

Merriam-Webster, definition 2b.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/manipulate
b : to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage

Also see examples.
"She knows how to manipulate her parents to get what she wants." A daughter consciously acting in a certain manner in order to get her parents to agree to something that they wouldn't otherwise agree to. Even something as everyday as a toddler throwing tantrums in a public place to get candy would fit this definition. If you consider Triss's persuading Geralt to "remake himself" to be a conscious attempt to stop him from remembering Yen, then it would fit this definition.

"He felt that he had been manipulated by the people he trusted most." The realisation that you had been persuaded into a course of action by others who didn't have your best interests at heart. By this definition, if you believe that Triss deliberately involved Geralt in politics to further her own political career, it would fit the definition.

"The editorial was a blatant attempt to manipulate public opinion." A single act can be manipulative. It doesn't need to be carried out over a period of time. The accusation of manipulation doesn't require the editorial to have lied, just phrased the truth in such a way as to cause the readers to think things the way that the newspaper wanted them to think. Triss choosing to allow Geralt to think she was his "Sorceress Lover" would fall in this category, as would the Loc Muinne speech if you think that Triss was more concerned with convincing her audience than with being 100% accurate.

Cambridge Dictionary:
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/manipulation
the ​action of ​influencing or ​controlling someone or something to ​your ​advantage, often without anyone ​knowing it.

Please note that this is "control OR play upon" and "influencing OR controlling".


But I think if you apply some standard to character A then you need to apply that exact same standard to character B or else it's hypocritical.

It's only hypocritical if you assess both and then excuse similar behaviour for one but not the other, which hasn't happened in this thread so it isn't really relevant. Unless your claim is that "Others were manipulative THEREFORE being manipulative is acceptable", and I don't think that's the point you're making?

Personally, I'd consider that most of the major characters in both TW2 and TW3 are manipulative at some time.
 
Geralt may not have loved her. Who knows if a fictional character loved anyone?

Manipulation has a very specific definition and meaning. It is defined the same way in dozens of dictionaries. Neither you nor I can alter that meaning in any authoritative way. So Triss did all you say but it never reaches the level of manipulation. Pleas show me any authoritative definition that would substantiate you using the word "manipulation". And personal feelings or opinions don't count when it comes to actual facts.

As I said in another post she can't even be accused of lying by omission as it never reaches the required level of that definition. And yes I'm being VERY techinical and exact. Words have meanings .

And no I don't have the hots for Triss. She's interesting but not my cup of tea. I'm agnostic when it comes to Triss or Yen. To be honest my ideal is Bastila from KOTOR. But I think if you apply some standard to character A then you need to apply that exact same standard to character B or else it's hypocritical.

First of all, I never meant to imply that you have the hots for Triss. My comment was directed at the characters, specifically adressing the notion that doing something out of infatuation/love can be used as an excuse for unsavoury behaviour.

In what concerns the manipulation angle, again, I personally believe that Triss' actions can very well be seen as such, even by your strict definition. By careful management of the information that Geralt receives, she effectively ensures that the possibility of him running away from her to go look for that other elusive sorceress is removed. She can't make him fall in love, but she does make sure he does not go on a wild chase after his memories and his lover, and instead becomes available for a romantic relationship. She does have control over Geralt, to a certain extent, because she does not reveal all the information she holds about him. The withholding of information is essential here, because that information is precisely what could have altered Geralt's behaviour and led him onto a course of action that would have kept her from achieving her goal of becoming his lover and/or getting him involved in political bullshit.

As for other characters being more or less morally lax according to your views, I don't see how that is relevant to an independent discussion of Triss' behaviour.
 
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Triss choosing to allow Geralt to think she was his "Sorceress Lover" would fall in this category
I do not think she actively suggests that in the game, nor does she know what Geralt thinks exactly - without reading his mind, only the player knows that by reading the journal. And it may be possible to engage in a relationship like that without being manipulative in a calculating way, it may begin with the assumption that it will not last long (or because it serves the Lodge's interests, which is indeed manipulation, but for different reasons, and not entirely her own choice), but when it becomes more serious, it is a difficult situation.
as would the Loc Muinne speech if you think that Triss was more concerned with convincing her audience than with being 100% accurate.

Accusing Sile de Tansarville at the summit of being responsible for the assassinations (of not just Demavend but also Foltest) is not necessarily manipulation, it is more of a case of simply being wrong. That can happen when one draws conclusions from insufficient evidence ("One thing is certain. Letho killed Foltest. And Síle was working with Letho").
 
Merriam-Webster, definition 2b.

b : to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage

Also see examples.
"She knows how to manipulate her parents to get what she wants." A daughter consciously acting in a certain manner in order to get her parents to agree to something that they wouldn't otherwise agree to. Even something as everyday as a toddler throwing tantrums in a public place to get candy would fit this definition. If you consider Triss's persuading Geralt to "remake himself" to be a conscious attempt to stop him from remembering Yen, then it would fit this definition.

"He felt that he had been manipulated by the people he trusted most." The realisation that you had been persuaded into a course of action by others who didn't have your best interests at heart. By this definition, if you believe that Triss deliberately involved Geralt in politics to further her own political career, it would fit the definition.

"The editorial was a blatant attempt to manipulate public opinion." A single act can be manipulative. It doesn't need to be carried out over a period of time. The accusation of manipulation doesn't require the editorial to have lied, just phrased the truth in such a way as to cause the readers to think things the way that the newspaper wanted them to think. Triss choosing to allow Geralt to think she was his "Sorceress Lover" would fall in this category, as would the Loc Muinne speech if you think that Triss was more concerned with convincing her audience than with being 100% accurate.

Cambridge Dictionary:
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/manipulation
the ​action of ​influencing or ​controlling someone or something to ​your ​advantage, often without anyone ​knowing it.

Please note that this is "control OR play upon" and "influencing OR controlling".
There are a few important criteria that each definition lists. The first example about the child manipulating her parents to do something they wouldn't do. It specifically left out the actual acts in that example so we can't determine the level of controlling vs artful, insidious or unfair. It therefore only sated that "something" happened that would have fit the definition. The example then mentions throwing a tantrum. But the act of throwing a tantrum is not manipulative itself. Otherwise every child everywhere would get their way by throwing a tantrum. Would you say that a child throwing a tantrum and then beinging punished for it manipulated his parents? Of course not. There was no gain. So an act by itself is not manipulative which leads me to the next part.

And the first definition requires it to be to one's advantage. The first "or" in the definition separates control or the rest of the definition so it applies to the artful part. This means that Triss had to have received an advantage. A relationship can be considered an advantage but it is an advantage for both sides IF they had free will. That is why the definition list "control" as the first part.

A parent is going to give candy to a child. The decision has already been made. The child throws a tantrum and the parent gives the child candy. Since the act of giving candy was not reliant upon the tantrum therefore there was no manipulation. Manipulation must have a cause effect relationship.

The definition also lists three other words (artful, unfair and insidious). I don't want to make this too long but in law each of those conditionals need to have a definition.

The next example "He FELT manipulated" is easily dismissed. There is no finding of fact as feelings are not fact based. Everyday people feel they are wronged but in about half the cases taken to court there is no actual finding for the plaintiff. The example never lists the actual acts. The last part is pure speculation and it requires a finding of "best interest" for Geralt. There is also an assumption that Triss got involved not for love but for her "political career". Neither has been established.

The last example once again doesn't exactly explain the act. Instead it is a finding. "The editorial was a blatant attempt to manipulate". It never said what was in the editorial. See I'm not denying there aren't things that are manipulative, I'm saying that none of the examples show the actual act that might have been manipulative. The examples already found that there was a factual basis but never says what that basis was.

Now I'm 100% positive that you would agree that simple influence is not the same as being manipulative. Else every reviewer, every critic, every politician, our spouses, our children, or beliefs are all manipulative every time they influence us. So simple influence does not arise to the required criteria.

Controlling is the simple best definition because it meets all the criteria. Influencing is too generic and has other clauses that will need to be met. That leaves us with "play upon" which includes other conditional tests that must be met.

Manipulation really boils down to "making" (via control, influence or other methods) another person do something that they would not have done otherwise. That is critical in order to prove manipulation. You can't manipulate a person if they are going to do it anyway. So the real question here is this:

Would Geralt have had a relationship with Triss if he had no amnesia? If the answer is that he would have slept with her then there can never be any manipulation as his own actions would have ended int he same result.

Personally, I'd consider that most of the major characters in both TW2 and TW3 are manipulative at some time.

That is exactly my point. Using a broader based definition then others are manipulative. And if someone says "I hate character A because they are manipulative" then they should hate character B since their hatred is based on the act of being manipulative.
 
Accusing Sile de Tansarville at the summit of being responsible for the assassinations (of not just Demavend but also Foltest) is not necessarily manipulation, it is more of a case of simply being wrong. That can happen when one draws conclusions from insufficient evidence ("One thing is certain. Letho killed Foltest. And Síle was working with Letho").

When you have no proper evidence then maybe it's better to not mention it at all? It's called slander. Now that I think about this, Triss didn't even have evidence regarding Demavend's death. Only Letho's words.
 
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Would Geralt have had a relationship with Triss if he had no amnesia? If the answer is that he would have slept with her then there can never be any manipulation as his own actions would have ended int he same result.

Geralt without amnesia would have been aware of his past with a woman he had traded in his life for and with whom he had been, by all accounts, almost obsessively in love for almost two decades. I think it's fair to assume he would have gone looking for said woman instead of canoodling with another woman he had very clearly turned down before.
 
Regarding this whole "is she a master manipulator or a victim?" debate...She might be a manipulator, but not a good one. Especially not in TW2. I mean, just look at this bit of dialogue:
Geralt: Who had Foltest assassinated?
Triss: I have no idea. Perhaps after Demavend's succesful assassination, Sheala and Philippa decided to take the next step?
Geralt: That would be stupid.
Our master manipulator, ladies and gentlemen.

Her machinations with Geralt in TW1 were also pretty pathetic. Plus she was excluded from the Lodge for asking stupid questions. So no, I don't buy her as a master manipulator at all.
 
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The next example "He FELT manipulated" is easily dismissed. There is no finding of fact as feelings are not fact based. Everyday people feel they are wronged but in about half the cases taken to court there is no actual finding for the plaintiff. The example never lists the actual acts. The last part is pure speculation and it requires a finding of "best interest" for Geralt. There is also an assumption that Triss got involved not for love but for her "political career". Neither has been established.

At least when it comes to the personal aspects, Geralt never claims that he feels manipulated anyway.

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When you have no proper evidence then maybe it's better to not mention it at all? It's called slander.

That implies doing it intentionally (being aware that the evidence is not sufficient), rather than by mistake. Do you have proper evidence of that ? ;) It is not like she was the only one to fall into the same trap.

Would Geralt have had a relationship with Triss if he had no amnesia? If the answer is that he would have slept with her then there can never be any manipulation as his own actions would have ended int he same result.

According to book fans, the answer is probably "no", but in fact we cannot know for sure. In the games, there can later be a relationship with no amnesia at all.
 
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