[SPOILERS] Johnny and the Relic

[Silariell]

THIS ENTIRE THREAD IS GOING TO SPOIL THINGS, DO NOT READ IF YOU DO NOT WISH TO BE SPOILED

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Okay. I have a question about the story; Why exactly did Arasaka create an engram with Silverhand's character in it? Why did they keep it so it could be activated and let him live again? I don't get it. In his flashback, the lady says to him 'there are fates worse than death', but... Uhm... All they're doing is inviting the possibility for him to finish what he started.

Can someone explain to me why that plot device even exists? Why did they decide to make an engram of a rocker boy who hates them with every fiber of their being and not some rando soldier / other loyalist? As I understand it, the tech costs so much money only their dear leader can even afford to fully use it, and even then it takes a horrible betrayal from his son to make it work. Why did they decide to use it on a <literal who>, who'd murder them all if he got his way?

Was this ever explained in the game? Because if not, that's a -massive- plot hole...

 

[MeinChurro]

Haven't you been reading my posts in the ending thread? They did it to railroad him into the game. They try to manipulate you into choosing the ending where Johnny takes your body. That's why you get things like them "there are fates worse than death". They give even your copy just 6 months left to live, so you will sit there and think "Well Johnny has an entire life he could live, while I only have 6 months left". That is the writers pushing you into choosing their desired ending. Johnny was shoehorned into this game, Johnny takes V's spotlight, makes V a sideshow.

As I said in the other thread, this is a case of the creator's vision superseding player choice. What I don't understand is, why did they even bother with V at all? Make a game about just Johnny Silverhand if you wanted him so bad.

 

[Silariell]

They did it to railroad him into the game. They try to manipulate you into choosing the ending where Johnny takes your body.

My question is more from the in-universe perspective. Why did Arasaka copy Johnny into the chip? Why was this chip taken out 'to be sold' to someone?

You're probably right about the whole thing just being railroaded to get Keanu into the player's head as fast as possible... Which, if that's the case with no in-universe explanation, doesn't make this giant plot hole any better.

 

[MeinChurro]

My question is more from the in-universe perspective. Why did Arasaka copy Johnny into the chip? Why was this chip taken out 'to be sold' to someone?

You're probably right about the whole thing just being railroaded to get Keanu into the player's head as fast as possible... Which, if that's the case with no in-universe explanation, doesn't make this giant plot hole any better.

Oh, it is most definitely a plot hole. I guess they could play it off as well he was Saburo's obsession, he did blow up their HQ, he was a Guinea pig, etc.

 

[moridin.789]

In universe (and it's more from a Cyberpunk Red perspective) it's logical: Arasaka want to improve the "relic" system (and remember that they have the soulkiller ICE). So they use Silverhand as guinea pig. It's not so much as a plot hole as a badly explain plot.

 

[brukin]

In universe (and it's more from a Cyberpunk Red perspective) it's logical: Arasaka want to improve the "relic" system (and remember that they have the soulkiller ICE). So they use Silverhand as guinea pig. It's not so much as a plot hole as a badly explain plot.

Sorry, I just don't buy your explanation. Anyone who gets the chip inserted into his system gets his mind rewritten with that of the person who proved to be the most dangerous to the company. Why take this risk at all? What purpose does it serve as far as research goes that is not accomplished by using any other rando instead? It is 100 percent a plot hole, and the story is riddled with them.

Here's another one, which once again proves that Arasaka thinks that Johnny's engram is harmless for no logical reason whatsoever (copy past of a comment of mine on another thread):

-Hanako: Her reason to collaborate with V is season 7-8 GoT level of retard. She knows about the chip being in V's head, so she accepts to collude with and trust the person with a mind being actively rewritten with that of JOHNNY SILVERHAND, ie the man who got the closest to destroying Arasaka, she has no idea about who is holding the reigns between V and Johnny. It is implied several times that Arasaka and her father are very important to her, and that she's pretty savy regarding the corp's own tech. So she takes this huge and dumb risk anyway, for what reason? Testifying as an eye witness in front of the Arasaka higher-ups who have 0 reason to trust you (of course your testimony does fuck all in the end, as could be expected).

 

[moridin.789]

Sorry, I just don't buy your explanation. Anyone who gets the chip inserted into his system gets his mind rewritten with that of the person who proved to be the most dangerous to the company. Why take this risk at all? What purpose does it serve as far as research goes that is not accomplished by using any other rando instead? It is 100 percent a plot hole, and the story is riddled with them.

Don't buy it. I just give a possible explanation. He may be the most dangerous person for the company, but he's transform as a phantom in the netspace. Is not dangerous anymore, he's possibly "locked up" into a personal hell in netspace. A fate worst than death...

But sure, it's a plot hole... It's a bad explain plot, not a plot hole. It's not because there's not an explanation that is a plot hole.

 

[eriberri]

I'm kind of surprised that with so many people working on this game, AND Mike Pondsmith to boot, that nobody saw the flaw in this major detail of the game. That nobody looked at it objectively. Keeping Johnny's consciousness in a chip that could easily replay the events of the past all over again is just weird. At the very least they could have come up with some sort of viable explanation for it in game.

But in the end, I really do feel like this was just meant to be a game about Johnny Silverhand. V was shoehorned in to give the player the illusion of having some say or control, when in truth they have none. It's like the team got obsessed over this idea and bullshitted about choice, thinking we'd be too won over by Keanu/Johnny to even care after we noticed.

That being said, I DO like Johnny, I just wish that V didn't feel like he/she was just a vessel for him. At the very least they could have offered an ending with some hope and intrigue where V and Johnny's consciousness merge into one. Having V star in a sequel with a split personality would be quite interesting, imo. Or, somehow actually allow V to purge him from her mind, not sure how though (without rewriting the physical effect the chip has on the brain).

(Sorry for going a bit off-topic in that last bit. I've just been meaning to put that in somewhere. lol.)

 

[DarkTl]

Imagine "punishing" your worst enemy by giving him a chance to be reborn in the far future, providing all required tech for the said rebirth.

One would thought a huge corporation had more effective means of revenge that is worse than death: such as a server for digital ghosts like Silverhand where escape is impossible. Apparently not.

 

[Kikinho]

Well the chip only reactivated in V's head because he got shot in the head. As he was dying, the chip started to revive and rewrite his brain, since the chip was only meant to work in a dead body.

I can kinda excuse this plot since it is well in character for one of the most powerful person on the world to be arrogant enough to think he can keep the chip safe in his own empire. And probably would have managed too if not fo his own son.

It is even mentioned ingame that the chip is a prototype that was never meant to leave the company. And yeah, I think capturing Jhonny's consciousness inside the digital hell is well in character for Saboru. Torture the person who blew up on his HQs with the same technology that his ex girlfriend created.

 

[Dermax]

I don't know if this has been addressed in game - I'm holding off on "the endings" - but is it possible that Yorinobu "downloaded" Johnny on to the chip? Like maybe his consciousness was on some sort of "eternal hell server" and it was Yorinobu who put him on the chip. That was the treason that Saburo referenced, not just taking a prototype?

 

[Glifu]

Kikinho has a very good point. Additionally Johnny was "well known terrorist" and thus to that - expendable. Imagine what it could mean for Saburo Arasaka, torture by resurrecting and killing (in way of experiments on that prototypes) someone who tried to stand up and tremble his empire.

 

[hismastersvoice]

Also, remember who stole the chip. Sticking it up to Saburo by stealing not only the keys to the kingdom, but also lacing them with the engram of a man who flipped an atomic sized bird at the corp was the kind of thing I'd expect Yorinobu to do.

 

[Motsie]

Silverhand being the guinea pig is half of it.

It's Saburo's way of tormenting him for nuking his company. They had two prototypes of the chip, with the previous version allowing you to simply communicate with the engram. The prototype in V's head is the one that rewires the mind and body. The rewiring isn't an immediate process and you can remove the chip before initiating it (Jackie slots it in and then removes it later).

They were going to test the Silverhand engram on some 'willing' participant, analyze the results, and then terminate the new host. Kind of like in Westworld Season 2 where they conduct tests on a certain someone whose mind has been transferred to a new host body. They want to measure the integrity and 'authenticity' of the transference.

Johnny was just what they had on hand and decided to use for testing purposes.

 

[cypherpunked2077]

I can think of a few reasons.
1. Copying out Johnny's engram gives them the opportunity to torment him for as long as Arasaka can keep their computers running. Imagine being in a prison you can not escape from and are at the mercy of your enemies forever.

2. Because Johnny was presumed dead in the attack, there is no messy issue about friends/relatives looking for him. So Arasaka don't need any power of attorney document signed.

3. Johnny's body may be useful for other things, once Johnny's consciousness has been removed from his brain. For example Arasaka could implant an obedient engram into Johnny's body, and get "Johnny" to sing Arasaka propaganda. What better propaganda than that supporting you by a sworn enemy?

4. Saburo Arasaka has a history (at the game's end) of using the body of others to suit his needs - e.g. his own son. So it fits his modus operandi.

[Spoilers] Saburo & Yorinobu Arasaka

Did Yorinobu really "donate" his body to his father, or was it punishment for him murdering his father? If it was punishment, did the order come from Hanako or Saburo's engram? It seems Hanako may have had some idea what will happen to Yorinobu, because she tells you not to harm him. What...

forums.cdprojektred.com

5. Lastly, I think that Arasaka generally wants to preserve people of exceptional talent/skill/etc. so that their engrams can be used later, and their bodies frozen for future use. They wanted to save V's engram and as a profit driven entity, imagine being able to produce inventions by the brightest minds, music by the best singers, technologies by the best engineers, who are rendered immortal by Soulkiller and who reside on your servers.

 

[stucklikechuck]

Haven't you been reading my posts in the ending thread? They did it to railroad him into the game. They try to manipulate you into choosing the ending where Johnny takes your body. That's why you get things like them "there are fates worse than death". They give even your copy just 6 months left to live, so you will sit there and think "Well Johnny has an entire life he could live, while I only have 6 months left". That is the writers pushing you into choosing their desired ending. Johnny was shoehorned into this game, Johnny takes V's spotlight, makes V a sideshow.

As I said in the other thread, this is a case of the creator's vision superseding player choice. What I don't understand is, why did they even bother with V at all? Make a game about just Johnny Silverhand if you wanted him so bad.

The reason they kept johnny "Alive" is the same reason they wanted to Keep Alt alive 50 years ago. Saburo Arasaka wants to control humanity, If he could have figured out a way to control Johnny Silverhand, he would have achieved a massive milestone toward this endeavor. Johnny Silverhand was the biggest rockerboy to exist at the time. The concert he played before blowing up Arasaka Tower started Massive Riots. Imagine that but It was actuallyArasaka pulling the strings and getting people to blow up millitech/biotechnica/etc. That would have been HUGE for Arasaka. And considering how some of the endings go, its probably what they wanted in the first place.

The only question that I think is left un-answered is why Yorinobu Stole Johnny Silverhand in the first place? My best guess is he would have revived him somehow and gotten him to take out Saburo and Hanoko, but that's speculation and it also seems like it wouldn't because johnny hates 'Saka and would definitely not work with Yorinobu just pull off a corporate coup. Right there is the real plot hole, and it ultimately doesn't matter because V steals the chip and ruins whatever half baked plan Yorinobu had.

 

[HonestBenny]

It absolutely make no sense for someone like Saburo who is 150year old experienced man who outlived COUNTLESS enemies to keep Jhonny alive. Keeping Alt alive makes sense cause she was brilliant netrunner and wrote Soulkiller. Her potential is limitless.

But Jhonny? Not only he is ideological terrorist that hates Arasaka but apart from that is just just a thug. He doesn't have any value as human for Araska. When it comes to soldiers/murderers Arasaka has thousands more in elite training camps. He has Takemuro, Oda, Smasher and probably hundreds like them around world. Jhonny is useless to him.

Also keeping Jhonny in biochip posses a big risk. What if someone will put into someone head (unlikely but you do not live 150 years as most powerful man on planet without thinking safe) - you have no back a terrorist who murders thousands just to show Arasaka middle finger. Too dangerous to keep alive.

Guinea Pig? Also useless. He can have thousands poor, homeless and kids from slums all over the world for experiments. He doesn't need Jhonny.

So answering you question? There is no reason but to force Jhonny into plot. That's it.

 

[TheDofnus]

That's something that has been bugging me, too. Maybe I missed it, but I also feel like it's never explained why the hell Johnnys construct is on the relic.
However, during the talk between Hellman and V, Hellman says taking over V's brain is something that Johnny Silverhand would do. Maybe that's the reason why Arasaka chose to put the construct of Johnny onto the relic: they wanted someone with a drive strong enough to take over someone elses mind and body and Johnny was driven by his hate towards Arasaka regardless of the consequences. Kinda like Saburo has a strong will to become immortal.

 

[JC_Denton_86]

Why do James Bond villains always leave James Bond in an easily escapable, unguarded room?

Three words: Bad guy logic.

 

[db_rando]

Saburo actually gives some clues the first time you play as Johnny, just after V gets clipped.

Once Johnny gets captured, Saburo tells him something along the lines of "The living lie, often to themselves." and "It's so gratifying hearing the dead speak, the dead have no secrets".

Later on it's also brought up that Arasaka primarily used the Soulkiller to dispose of the target and still be able to interrogate them afterwards. Possibly interrogation is easier once a consciousness is copied over to an engram?

There's probably the fact you're able to give someone an eternal life sentence if they double-cross you.

Although I don't understand why Johnny ended up on that chip. Was it a mistake or they just loaded anything onto the chip 'cause it was in trial? Seems like a silly thing to do considering the guy literally blew up Arasaka HQ.

It's interesting that in-universe Yorinobu has a grudge against his father and has tried to bring down Arasaka in the past. It's only in 2077 that he comes home and tries 'bringing it down from the inside' (according to the wiki).

I can see why an engram like Johnnys' would be particularly useful to Militech or Yorinobu, considering Johnny is the guy who managed to successfully nuke Arasaka HQ 50 years ago.