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Spoilers [me3 ending ]

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D

dragonbird

Ex-moderator
#261
Mar 15, 2012
I just googled "Dallas dream ending mass effect". A lot of people seem to be making that connection.

If they DO come up with this type of excuse, I very much doubt it if was planned in advance, it would be something put in place in response to the customer unhappiness. On the one hand, it would be nice to see Bioware acknowledge that they'd screwed up the endings, but on the other, this was a dubious way of dealing with it 30 years ago, and it would be just as dubious now.

Is this really what people want, or have people just moved through the "Denial" and "Anger" phases of grief and hit "Bargaining"?

If you want SOMETHING to be done, would you prefer a "this was all a dream" explanation followed by a different ending, or for them to remove the existing ending and replace it with something better?
 
227

227

Forum veteran
#262
Mar 15, 2012
BSN is a treasure trove of ME3 humor right now. Love it. I have that indoctrination theory thread up constantly because there's tons of amazing stuff in there. Example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=467pmIX-oZo

Pro or anti, you have to admit... that's funny.
 
G

gibb_geralt

Rookie
#263
Mar 15, 2012
dragonbird said:
I just googled "Dallas dream ending mass effect". A lot of people seem to be making that connection.

If they DO come up with this type of excuse, I very much doubt it if was planned in advance, it would be something put in place in response to the customer unhappiness. On the one hand, it would be nice to see Bioware acknowledge that they'd screwed up the endings, but on the other, this was a dubious way of dealing with it 30 years ago, and it would be just as dubious now.

Is this really what people want, or have people just moved through the "Denial" and "Anger" phases of grief and hit "Bargaining"?

If you want SOMETHING to be done, would you prefer a "this was all a dream" explanation followed by a different ending, or for them to remove the existing ending and replace it with something better?
Click to expand...
I can't even believe anyone would be happy with this desperate theory spawned from despair. It actually means that we don't GET an ending. It'd be akin to cutting off ME2 as soon as you hit the Omega 4. It's provide even less closure than the ones we have now do.
 
L

lycos

Senior user
#264
Mar 15, 2012
dragonbird said:
I just googled "Dallas dream ending mass effect". A lot of people seem to be making that connection.
Click to expand...
I suspect it, like all the other "tin foil" theories are just wishful thinking at best.

The entire debacle - combined with DA2, TOR, Day 1 DLC, etc - has not "hammered Biowares credibility into the ground", so much as "hammered it through the planet and out the other side". Even sites which gave lavishing release reviews are starting to inch towards the door.

Any business with a functional brain would not do this - even EA. There is no way any excuse of "we planned it this way, here's the real ending" would convince anyone. It is almost certain that somewhere, heads are rolling.
 
M

manuelexar

Rookie
#265
Mar 15, 2012
SPOILER HERE

Guys, I was a HUGE fan of Mass Effect, the first game had a really bad gameplay but the story itself was great, I thought it was the new Star Wars.

Then Mass Effect 2 came, the story was...different, more about developing strong bounds with your companions than about a strong storyline (a Sole Survivor Shepard that is Working with cerberus will look like a strange thing but we can oversee that), the gameplay changes were really good so it made up for the holes in the story.

Finally arrived Mass Effect 3, they put back weapons modding, separated the cooldown for ammo-power/medigel/powers, they put back a real skill tre...the story was really good, yeah someone can complain about the auto-dialogue but having to click 3 choices with the same answer was a thing ppl ranted about in the older games so I didn't care much.
About same sex romances is not a problem to me, It is normal and you can avoid that if you don't want to pursue one.
The game is full of great moments: Going to shoot bottles with Garruus on the citadel, Hacking things with Kasumi, people talking about shepard's dancing skills, the shepard VI!! Full of characters and citations from the other games so it's really enjoyable...
THE ENDING.
Guys, you finish a certain mission and you happen to know that THE REAPERS MOVED the CITADEL. (And they don't tell you if they went and captured it or if they just said "citadel move out" to the reaper kinect.
Then everything broke to pieces.
Really
The conduit run was really a cit. of me1, but on foot (there's a mako next to you that blows up!)
Then the space-children
In my run I went really friendly with EDI and Legion and I made peace between the Geth and the Quarian, so WTF??
Right now ALL THE FLEETS OF THE GALAXY GETH INCLUDED are killing reapers!!!

After all I've done this "Children" is telling me that the Reapers Exist to save Organics by killing them, and turning them into synthetics. So that Organics won’t make synthetics who will then kill organics.

REALLY BIOWARE! ARE YOU SERIOUS???

I can't Kill the reapers because I will kill EDI and All the Geths and for the WHOLE DAMN GAME I was going around telling everyone "hey! Make Peace no War!".

I can't control the reapers because I read too much LOTR and I know that the power consume us.

So I have to Pick Synthesis (which is a really bad ending, since I'm imposing to all the galaxy to become a Hybrid).

Man, 80E for what?

(Btw, the Prothean character is quite Fun).
 
G

gibb_geralt

Rookie
#266
Mar 15, 2012
THE INSPIRATION TO THE ME3 ENDING REVEALED:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm82gjZDIDU
 
M

manuelexar

Rookie
#267
Mar 15, 2012
GibbGeralt said:
THE INSPIRATION TO THE ME3 ENDING REVEALED:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm82gjZDIDU
Click to expand...
I thought it was the KISS' Starchild!
 
M

manuelexar

Rookie
#268
Mar 15, 2012
CostinMoroianu said:
Completely Bioware's doing? Completely Bioware's doing when they have to listen to thousands upon thousands of entitled asses who think they can dictate how a story is written. Thousands upon thousands who pissed on Shepard having to work with Cerberus ( Overlord DLC ring a goddamn bell? ) and who wanted to gladly shoot TIM, thousands who flamed the living crap out of the people who liked TIM or Cerberus.
Click to expand...
Then tell me why a sole survivor shepard is willing to work with them?
The whole work with cerberus is crap, shepard should have been rebuit by the geth and then he could have picked what to do. Instead they forced us to work with cerberus and if a character is sole survivor it's MADNESS. they killed your entire squad! Maybe you could have been given the opportunity later.
 
Aditya

Aditya

Forum veteran
#269
Mar 15, 2012
manuelexar said:
SPOILER HERE

Guys, I was a HUGE fan of Mass Effect, the first game had a really bad gameplay but the story itself was great, I thought it was the new Star Wars.

Then Mass Effect 2 came, the story was...different, more about developing strong bounds with your companions than about a strong storyline (a Sole Survivor Shepard that is Working with cerberus will look like a strange thing but we can oversee that), the gameplay changes were really good so it made up for the holes in the story.

Finally arrived Mass Effect 3, they put back weapons modding, separated the cooldown for ammo-power/medigel/powers, they put back a real skill tre...the story was really good, yeah someone can complain about the auto-dialogue but having to click 3 choices with the same answer was a thing ppl ranted about in the older games so I didn't care much.
About same sex romances is not a problem to me, It is normal and you can avoid that if you don't want to pursue one.
The game is full of great moments: Going to shoot bottles with Garruus on the citadel, Hacking things with Kasumi, people talking about shepard's dancing skills, the shepard VI!! Full of characters and citations from the other games so it's really enjoyable...
THE ENDING.
Guys, you finish a certain mission and you happen to know that THE REAPERS MOVED the CITADEL. (And they don't tell you if they went and captured it or if they just said "citadel move out" to the reaper kinect.
Then everything broke to pieces.
Really
The conduit run was really a cit. of me1, but on foot (there's a mako next to you that blows up!)
Then the space-children
In my run I went really friendly with EDI and Legion and I made peace between the Geth and the Quarian, so WTF??
Right now ALL THE FLEETS OF THE GALAXY GETH INCLUDED are killing reapers!!!

After all I've done this "Children" is telling me that the Reapers Exist to save Organics by killing them, and turning them into synthetics. So that Organics won’t make synthetics who will then kill organics.

REALLY BIOWARE! ARE YOU SERIOUS???

I can't Kill the reapers because I will kill EDI and All the Geths and for the WHOLE DAMN GAME I was going around telling everyone "hey! Make Peace no War!".

I can't control the reapers because I read too much LOTR and I know that the power consume us.

So I have to Pick Synthesis (which is a really bad ending, since I'm imposing to all the galaxy to become a Hybrid).

Man, 80E for what?

(Btw, the Prothean character is quite Fun).
Click to expand...
most of mine and many others' sentiments exactly..
I finished 3 "perfect" playthroughs (one normal and 2 game+) each time with a different love interest and some minor changes but overall same storyline choices. Saw all 3 crap endings initially but finally went with the destory reapers each time since thats the only way shepard can survive (EMS 5000+ needed)
I just observed that the catalyst/child says "you can destory the reapers and all synthetic life including the geth"
well that "can" doesn't necessarily imply "will" in this case. Maybe I'm just convincing myself with the words and bit of grammar, or the endings are really 100% crap, not even 99

I thought the same thing.. all what I did in the three games, especially in ME2 saving everyone in the apparent "suicide" mission and now in ME3 rallying everyone together was a total waste.
Casey Hudson said they wanted to make the ending inforgettable, and they really did. Only one small point which he missed which happened to be the most crucial was they forgot the "positively" remembered/unforgettable part
 
C

CostinRaz

Banned
#270
Mar 15, 2012
Oh yeah because every sole survivor has to give a shit about Akuze when the goddamn fate of the Galaxy is at stake: Here's a goddamn shocker: You don't, you really fucking don't.

I can't control the reapers because I read too much LOTR and I know that the power consume us.
Click to expand...
Then you and anyone who feels the same way is a fool who got what they deserve. Excuse me if I don't give a shit. I certainly wouldn't expect anything else but flaming and trolling as a TIM fan if the destroy ending preserved the Relays and Control destroyed them.

Oh, or do you think I was happy to watch my Shepard die in one of the most horrible ways in the Control ending just so I could save the Galaxy? After 3 years of playing him, hundreds of hours spent you think I didn't care and was just cheering at the idea of taking control the Reapers? I did it to preserve the Galactic Civilization, for the people I give a damn in the game.

There should not be a happy ending where everything turns out perfectly fine.
 
M

manuelexar

Rookie
#271
Mar 15, 2012
CostinMoroianu said:
Oh yeah because every sole survivor has to give a shit about Akuze when the goddamn fate of the Galaxy is at stake: Here's a goddamn shocker: You don't, you really fucking don't.



Then you and anyone who feels the same way is a fool who got what they deserve. Excuse me if I don't give a shit. I certainly wouldn't expect anything else but flaming and trolling as a TIM fan if the destroy ending preserved the Relays and Control destroyed them.

Oh, or do you think I was happy watch my Shepard die one of the most horrible ways in the Control ending just so I could save the Galaxy? After 3 years of playing him, hundreds of hours spent you think I didn't care and was just cheering at the idea of taking control the Reapers? I did it to preserve the Galactic Civilization, for the people I give a damn in the game.

There should not be a happy ending where everything turns out perfectly fine.
Click to expand...
Man please, I really like TIM but he's Indocrinated from the start! If you read the comics you understand that and his eyes looks exactly like saren's so it's not because of the fans if we see him as indoctrinated.
Yes, letting the people choose to stay loyal would have been great! imagine: one run as alliance or one run as cerberus: that would have been great, but It's not a thing bioware would do. two different plotlines, different cutscenes... (but back in me2 I was forced to play by TIM rules, so it's kinda fair).
 
C

CostinRaz

Banned
#272
Mar 15, 2012
TIM is right in the end, that he is indoctrinated doesn't change that. Just like Saren was about the species of the Galaxy being unable to win against the Reapers..which they weren't without the superweapon.

It's perfectly fine to hate TIM and it's perfectly fine to hate the ending, What I dislike is the people saying the entire game is shit because of it.

Also as for TIM being indoctrinated, just because it's in a comic that his eyes are because of Reaper tech doesn't mean Shepard knows this. We are never told this in the game.
 
M

mrowakus

Forum veteran
#273
Mar 15, 2012
CostinMoroianu said:
TIM is right in the end, that he is indoctrinated doesn't change that. Just like Saren was about the species of the Galaxy being unable to win against the Reapers..which they weren't without the superweapon.

It's perfectly fine to hate TIM and it's perfectly fine to hate the ending, What I dislike is the people saying the entire game is shit because of it.
Click to expand...
No, the entire game is not shit because of the ending or TIM. In fact it's quite enjoyable popamole shooter with RPG elements.

However, the story is godawful, at times on the level of the lowest of the fanficks with no internal consistency or cohesion. Granted, it has its moments. But in the larger scope of things it just doesn't make sense.

While playing ME3 and laughing my guts off at the "storytelling", me and a few chaps compiled a list of plotholes in the entire franchise. If you want, I may post it here, but I warn you - it will be a loooooong read. I don't want to clutter CDP Red forums too much, but it's your call.

A nice warm up for you - the article about inconsistencies and downright idiotic decisions in the narrative of ME2.

http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=7004

And even barring the plotholes, the levels of cliche and plot convenience in this one are over 9000. Super-weapons found in the nick of a time? Reapers ignoring the Citadel for some magical reason? Uberawesome speed at which scientists and workers construct the Crucible during the wartime (when the Alliances' supply, millitary and trade routes are effectively shattered) from the plans prepared by an ancient race they know very little about, and even less about the technology they can't possibly comprehend? The list goes on...
 
C

CostinRaz

Banned
#274
Mar 15, 2012
Go ahead list them, but only ME3. I had enough arguing ME2, just don't expect anything but a total war type argument on this.
 
U

username_2093396

Senior user
#275
Mar 15, 2012
CostinMoroianu said:
Then you and anyone who feels the same way is a fool who got what they deserve. Excuse me if I don't give a shit. I certainly wouldn't expect anything else but flaming and trolling as a TIM fan if the destroy ending preserved the Relays and Control destroyed them.

Oh, or do you think I was happy to watch my Shepard die in one of the most horrible ways in the Control ending just so I could save the Galaxy? After 3 years of playing him, hundreds of hours spent you think I didn't care and was just cheering at the idea of taking control the Reapers? I did it to preserve the Galactic Civilization, for the people I give a damn in the game.
Click to expand...
You only have the Catalyst's word about what each choice will actually do. He says Shepard can control the Reapers where the Illusive Man could not, but is this true? Everything he says seems calculated to steer Shepard toward Synthesis or possibly Control. He even says all three choices will destroy the Relays, but if you think he was lying about that then couldn't he also be lying that Shepard is able to control the Reapers?

He even threatens that the Destroy option will kill all synthetics (including friends and allies of a Paragon Shepard) and yet Destroy seems to be considered the Paragon option in the game. Then there's that ending scene after Destroy where Shepard wakes up in the rubble of London despite having been on the Citadel when it apparently blew up.

I think there are so many inconsistencies with the ending that either the story really is crap, or else the player is not supposed to take anything in the ending at face value and instead wait for the DLC to come out. Either way I think it's a terrible idea on Bioware's part, but considering that the ending literally ends with a message to wait for more DLC I'm starting to get converted to the indoctrination scenario :p And Bioware's Twitter messages certainly add fuel to the new-ending-DLC fire by teasing things like saying people wouldn't be upset with the ending if they knew what was coming next and stuff like that.
 
C

CostinRaz

Banned
#276
Mar 15, 2012
The Illusive Man could not since he had been indoctrinated, that was what stopped him.

I certainly believe it's possible, and it makes sense. Shepard's body gets disintegrated but his consciousness replaces that of the Catalyst. Also what the Catalyst states is that releasing the energy of the Crucible will end the cycle but will also destroy the Relays. Control does not have you firing the Catalyst however, not like in the other endings.
 
M

mrowakus

Forum veteran
#277
Mar 15, 2012
Dear admins... forgive me for what I am about to do... Do not "DING DONG BANNU" me, please...


CostinMoroianu said:
Go ahead list them, but only ME3. I had enough arguing ME2, just don't expect anything but a total war type argument on this.
Click to expand...
Well, considering that a lot of things in ME3 do not make sense in the light of what happened in the previous installments, it's a tough call. :/ A lot of things here would be addressed in that article I posted, but...

Still, if you don't feel like justifying the whole thing, pick up those aspects related to ME3 only - but show which you ignored for the time being.

-Why did the reapers forget about the citadel until TIM told them it was important for something? In ME1, it's explained that the first thing the reapers do is take over the citadel, which is always the center of galactic politics. This throws the galaxy in to disarray and minimizes resistance. They also shut off the mass relays for everyone except them. In ME3 they don't bother disabling the mass relays and only take the citadel after TIM tells them it's a good idea.

-Everything having to do with the kid: who is he? Why is he there? Why does he take the form of that kid? What was up with the dream sequences? Who built/programmed him? Who built/programmed the reapers? Why? How is building a race of super-AI robots that kill all advanced organic life a good solution to stopping organic and synthetic life from fighting? How does killing advanced organic life and turning them into robot prawn preserve their essence for all eternity? Why does Shepard getting to the kid mean his solution won't work anymore? Why does he gladly explain to Shepard how to kill the reapers and undo everything he's apparently been working to preserve for millions of years?

-Cerberus. In ME1 they're a rogue military faction that kill wantonly kill people to keep their existance secret. They experiment with husks and rachni. In ME2 they're a covert organization striving to keep humanity safe. They have a few small operations overseen by TIM and while they have considerable resources, building the Normandy SR2 and reviving Shepard is said to nearly bankrupt them. In ME3 they're a powerful military force capable of, among other things, taking over multiple Alliance bases without effort, invading a top-secret research base on the Salarian homeworld, taking over the citadel, and fielding a fleet of ships against the combined Alliance forces. How and why do they change so much between games?

-Why is the Normandy fleeing a beam of energy at the end of the game? The Normandy was supposed to be fighting in the battle, right? Did Joker just pussy out and leave after Shepard got on the citadel? And I had EDI and Liara with in the final mission. Did they just catch a shuttle back to the Normandy while I was dealing with TIM and the kid? It took hundreds of soldiers to take the battlefield, so I doubt getting out would be very easy. Especially with two full-sized reapers there at the end. Who was aboard the Normandy as it was fleeing the magic plot device light? How did Joker not break any bones in the crash? So many questions.

-In ME2, blowing up a mass relay destroys an entire star system. In ME3, every mass relay is blown up. Am I to assume every star system housing a mass relay was destroyed, or did this magical colored plot device light not have that effect? We don't know, because there's no epilogue at all.

-For that matter, what happened to everyone aboard the citadel when the reapers took it? Did they evacuate, or were they just all killed? What was with the bodies on the citadel at the end, and why did it suddenly look so different?

-What happened to the fleets orbiting Earth? Did those aliens die when the Crusible fired, or are they just left orbiting Earth unable to get home because the mass relays were blown up? Or maybe they all died because the solar system was blown up by an exploding mass relay.

-What happened to indoctrination? In ME1, that's said to be one of the main ways the reapers counteract resistance. I kept expecting one of the major NPCs, maybe admiral Hackett, to secretly have been indoctrinated or something. Instead only Cerberus is said to be indoctrinated, and there are a few other references to it elsewhere. You'd think some indoctrinated personel working inside Shepard's combined fleets would have given the reapers an advantage. For that matter, indoctrinating anyone other than Cerberus, who everyone knows is evil at this point, would have been an advantage. In ME2, exposure to any reaper tech eventually results in indoctrination. In ME3, you pass out reaper tech to anyone who asks for it. I mean, one indoctrinated scientist with a bomb could have set the crucible project back months or even years, probably resulting in defeat for Shepard. It's not like it would have been hard for the reapers to figure out what Shepard and co were up to. For that matter…

-Why are the reapers so bad at their job? They're supposed to be crushing resistance and harvesting organic life. But for whatever reason, they either don't find out about the crucible (even though everyone seems to know about it, and random scientists discuss plans for it in public), or they don't care. Again, one reaper could indoctrinate some scientists, find out where it was being built, and blow up the crucible and all the people working on it. Game over. Instead, the reapers appear content to attack planets one at a time and do nothing to disrupt resistance, giving Shepard plenty of time to gather support for the final push. With how sloppy their invasion is, it's amazing that they managed to win in any past cycles.

-In ME1 it's explained that the citadel is the center of the reaper invasion, and one of its purposes is as a giant mass relay to bring the reapers in from the dark space beyond the galaxy. That suggests they need a mass relay to get into the galaxy, otherwise why bother building the citadel that way? So why is it then so easy for the reapers to invade without using the citadel as a relay? They made it to the galaxy in under three years. So why bother with the citadel relay in the first place? Sovergn could have just sent them a message to come without doing anything it did in ME1, and nobody would have known about the reapers. What was the point of ME1, again?

-Why does the human reaper look nothing like the other reapers? We see the core of a reaper in ME2, and it's not some kind of giant skeleton. It's also never addressed how pulped human can even turn into a reaper. I mean, there's iron in the human body, but not very much.

-All the foreshadowing about humans being somehow special or neccisary for the reaper's plans is completely absent from ME3. There's no reference to genetic diversity, and the actions of the collectors are only references as "good times" between squadmates. There's no explanation for why the collectors were trying to build a human reaper when the entire reaper fleet was only a few months away from the galaxy anyway. In fact, there's practically no conversing with reapers even though the game is full of them.

-Since nobody seemed to believe Shepard about the reapers, why didn't Shepard just use the reaper corpse TIM found in ME2 to prove that, at the very least, they predate the Geth by millenia? I mean, sure, you're in a hurry, but just letting some scientists poke around the outside of the dead reaper for a week couldn't hurt.

-Why did the Protheans bury an artifact on Mars that contained plans for the crucible but apparently no information on the reapers? Or if it did contain information about the reapers, why didn't anyone find that information? Was the artifact just sitting around in a storage closet until Liara decided to look at it?

-Why is Admiral Hackett's plan to get an army and attack Earth? An attack is doomed to fail without the crucible anyway, and the crucible will supposedly destroy the reapers, so why not just build it and use it in place? Sure, it turns out that they need the citadel and the reapers move the citadel to Earth, but Hackett certainly doesn't know that's going to happen when he tells Shepard to put together a fleet for liberating Earth. Lucky thing the reapers decided to move the citadel there instead of hiding it somewhere. It is a mass relay, after all, so they could have just towed it to the middle of nowhere so the resistance forces couldn't find it.

-How on earth all those ground forces everywhere are "slowing down Reapers' progress". In real-life war you slow down the enemy's progress by bleeding it out, cutting their supply lines, breaking morale, and destroying the infrastructure they could otherwise take over. But all of that just doesn't apply to Reapers. They cannot be bled out - they are indestructible (unless hit by direct fleet strike at one Reaper when it is about to fire lazor gun). They do not have any supply lines and do not care for infrastructure. They are machines - they don't have morale. So how the hell is their progress slowed? For all we know they could just roll over the cities with their body weight and destroy everything and everyone without sustaining any damage. So how can they be stopped by Anderson? How come Earth survives for a few months (years?) that building the Crucible and ammassing the fleets as well as finding allies takes?

-Why the Reapers won't just use nuclear fusion and be done with the hassle. Ok, ok, I know - space magic works and they want together the species' genotype for some reason. Why do they need so much of it then? If they wanted they could compute the entire genome of any race (current gen super-computers actually are doing that with humans), create bazyllions of varieties of cloned DNA and then nuke everyone. Simple, neat, saves you trouble. And if you really don't want to create huge arse cratters, then what do you think of Viral bombs? It's even bettter because you can target one species, leaving puppies and kitties to evolve.
Click to expand...
 
M

mrowakus

Forum veteran
#278
Mar 15, 2012
227 said:
BSN is a treasure trove of ME3 humor right now. Love it. I have that indoctrination theory thread up constantly because there's tons of amazing stuff in there. Example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=467pmIX-oZo

Pro or anti, you have to admit... that's funny.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I feel sorry for Bio, but I have to credit them. The amount of lulz that came out of ME3 was worth the botched endings.

 
C

CostinRaz

Banned
#279
Mar 15, 2012
This will take some time, give me a few days on this.
 
B

Babli.480

Senior user
#280
Mar 15, 2012
 
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