[SPOILERS] My personal beef with CP77- How can we justify Johnny's terrorism? Really?

[Globerlober]

I mean I get your point and you do have an option to just shit on him every step of the story, give him no control and kill him in the end. You can totally express that he is no better than Arasaka in the story and pick a path that doesn't side with him.

This. You can tell Johnny to F off. The game gives us an option to sympathize with him and I don't find that problematic either. I mean, after all you're a mad butcherer too. All those guards, gang members and whoever comes across your path die a violent death without a second thought. Ofc you can opt for a pacifist run but like 95% of playerbase will use those guns we're given.

Arasaka represents the dystopian element of cyberpunk and what Johnny did was to fight against that evil. Did his actions justify the result? That's up to you to decide. And I find that good, you can either embrace the "rebel against society" or side with the status quo and condemn his actions.

So no, I don't blame CDPR for making a morally questionable story. It could be, if we would be on rails against Arasaka and would have to cheer for nuclear devastation. But we don't. It's just history that happened and we can decide how we feel about that.

 

[Cyber.D.G.]

That nuke was going off in that tower regardless of whether he was there or not. It wasn't his idea or his plan. As I stated in a previous post, the game leaves out some crucial context and information about the event in question. I don't know the reasoning behind this but it is what it is. He wasn't there for revenge he was trying to free Alt and he used the Militech mission as a way into the tower. He was hired by Militech so yes he was given orders and to the extent that it allowed him to complete his goal of freeing Alt he followed them.

Ok ok, its pointless
You like him, I hate him. Let's leave it at that

 

[Oddballe8]

It is. Same way TLOU2 was trying to make me sympathize Abby.
Writers trying to manipulate you through this bs. And I hate it.
Fck that bi...ch too.

Again. No, it's not.

Just because a game is showing you the perspective of the antagonist doesn't mean it's trying to actively make you sympathize with them or manipulate you.

It's simply showing you the perspective of the "other side".

Hell, It's what I try to teach the kids at work. Always try to see the view of the other person in an argument.

But, knowing today's climate, I see that's a skill long forgotten to most.

And I find it interesting (and very telling) that it causes outrage when done.

I suspect it is because most people these days view the world as black and white. There are no grays. You either agree with me or you're my enemy, that sort of thing.

So when someone shows them that the person they disagree with actually is a person with feelings and motives, they get upset.

Like so many people did with Abby in TLOU2, for example.
I felt it humanized her.
She was a person who did what she did, not because she was some sort of morally corrupt "evil" person.
She was trying to avenge her father.

And then Ellie went on a murder spree for that very same reason, and we're supposed to view her as the "good" guy?

Yeah... that'll upset a lot of people who don't see nuances.

Same thing with this Johnny thing.


That said, I fully believe that Abby was wrong in what she did.
And Johnny could be classified as a terrorist.

And I fully believe that it's up to the player to condemn them for what they did or let them live. (I didn't like that you didn't get to choose in TLOU2)

But to get pissy because the game is showing you that the main antagonist is a human and not some sort of emotionless psychopath who is "evil"... that's just highlighting problems in your own world view.

 

[ADHDmania]

wait..half million dead? the game don't even tell you that....I though Johnny just blow up an Arasaka tower and killed some Arasake guards..
damn, that's fucked up

 

[Cyber.D.G.]

It's simply showing you the perspective of the "other side".

Why? What for? Why do I need to look on the other side?
Exactly - to make me sympathize that bitc..h from TLOU2, and that motherf...cker from CP2077.
To make me sympathize the antagonist.
Well, at least in CP2077, writers gave me an option to send that drunk as..hole to cyberspace, where ALt will eat the mf.

 

[SaulTuk]

If i am not mistaken, raid on Arasaka was a Militech show. Their soldiers, their gear, their plan, their nuke. They allowed Johny, Rogue and others to join only because to Militech they were expendable cannon fodder fighting for personal causes, more powerful than paycheck. If Johny refused to take part in this, Mulitech would kick him off and commence the nuking anyway.
That said, Johny is still a narcissic jerk.

 

[Aedus_Amaterasu]

Ok ok, its pointless
You like him, I hate him. Let's leave it at that

Not pointless at all. Friendly conversation is always a good thing and not at all pointless in my opinion You responded before got done editing the post you replied to. I wasn't trying to change your mind about how you feel about Johnny. Though in hindsight it may have come across that way. I just wanted you to have all the context and information the game left out is all. If after that you still feel the same way about him that is totally fine. It's your Cyberpunk 2077 story and no one has to right to tell you how to feel about any of it.

 

[Cyber.D.G.]

Not pointless at all. Friendly conversation is always a good thing and not at all pointless in my opinion You responded before got done editing the post you replied to. I wasn't trying to change your mind about how you feel about Johnny. Though in hindsight it may have come across that way. I just wanted you to have all the context and information the game left out is all. If after that you still feel the same way about him that is totally fine. It's your Cyberpunk 2077 story and no one has to right to tell you how to feel about any of it.

Well.. I did feel a little sad sending him to cybespace. Just a little.
Not bc I like him, but bc I dont like to see ppl die. Any ppl.
And he doesnt give a fck about these things. Yeah, croul world, rough childhood, dead gf and sh..t, but still. He doesnt care about human life at all.
Only for really close chums, mb..

 

[Aedus_Amaterasu]

wait..half million dead? the game don't even tell you that....I though Johnny just blow up an Arasaka tower and killed some Arasake guards..
damn, that's fucked up

It does, I just can't remember when/where at the moment but it only talks about the death toll from the blast if I remember right. All told the nuclear atttack on Arasaka Tower, blast + aftermath was over 750,000 casualties, 500,000+ from the blast and 250,000+ from the aftermath, because the nuke went off early and above ground instead of underground below the tower.

Post automatically merged: Dec 24, 2020

Well.. I did feel a little sad sending him to cybespace. Just a little.
Not bc I like him, but bc I dont like to see ppl die. Any ppl.
And he doesnt give a fck about these things. Yeah, croul world, rough childhood, dead gf and sh..t, but still. He doesnt care about human life at all.
Only for really close chums, mb..

On one playthrough, if you can, try taking the more neutral or slightly friendly route with him. You might be surprised, I won't spoil anything for you though.

I cried at the end when...

Spoiler

Johnny told not to give him my body and to go back and survive an never give up and keep fighting.

 

[amikae]

Do you also have beef with The United States dropping 2 nuclear bombs on civilian towns in Japan during WW2?

If I'm not mistaken Johnny nuked Arasaka during the corporate wars which lead to the end of the war and Arasaka pulling out of Night City for a while. I imagine he saved more people than he killed with the bomb. Isn't that the whole argument with the US bombings? Sure they killed hundreds of thousands of civilians but the war ended?

Is it morally wrong? You tell me.

 

[primarymeridian]

Having a character get their reasoning and backstory explained isn't necessarily just to make you sympathize with them, its just a part of writing a well-rounded character. A character without a motivation, especially characters like Johnny, who are far from perfect humans (even if it's past tense now that he is dead) is useless in the narrative, and poorly created. Johnny's actions are integral to the lore, and since you're stuck with him he might as well talk about it. Like others have said he didn't intentionally blow up a ton of people, but it sure did happen.

It's also totally your choice, you absolutely can tell him to stuff his sunglasses and send him to the back of your brain, but don't be surprised if you're a total ass to him and he doesn't show any kindness to you at all.

Also he explains that he does care. About the people corporations are exploiting, his friends, and even V if you are honest with him. In certain endings he warns against asking people to risk their lives for you, like he did. He is far from a perfect character, but that's what makes him interesting.

Abby follows the exact same principles, she wants revenge, if the game didn't show you why she would be a Saturday morning cartoon villain that just shows up to kill Joel for fun, there would be no narrative reason for her to be there. It's not to make you sympathize and excuse their actions, but to give you reasoning for their actions.

 

[Aedus_Amaterasu]

Also he explains that he does care. About the people corporations are exploiting, his friends, and even V if you are honest with him.

He even started to care about the person I romanced in my first play through as well.

 

[Void Eclipse]

I did. And I still think that he's a terrorist, who killed thousands of innocent people. "Oh no! They killed my gf, so I'll destroy half of the city!"
Stupid, childish, selfish, annoying mf.
As he said himself once (don't remember when exactly), in some random conversation - he thinks it was worth it, with all the sacrifices.
Fck that as..hole.

Sounds as poorly grounded opinion.

 

[onosendai7]

Cyberpunk 2077 Johnny is a mix between "Never Fade Away" short story / scenario of Cyberpunk 2013 P&P RPG and the conclusion of the Firestorm Campaign for Cyberpunk 2020 P&P RPG.

In this world, Arasaka is the most evil company, spying on everyone, corrupting everything and killing anyone without any second thought. Johnny lost Alt to Arasaka, and a lot of friends too. He set up a gig and started a riot to recover Alt from Arasaka. He succeeded, in a way, freeing her as an AI in the cyberspace. This part is OK in the game.
Then, some years later, Arasaka and Militech are involved in a corpo war. A war that is shaking the Cyberpunk world because those corpos are the most powerful and the collateral damages of their conflicts are tremendous.
To put an end to that war, the bombing of the Arasaka HQ in Night City is decided by Militech CEO and the President of the USA (or what's left of it). This bombing is to be made with a tactical nuke.
Johnnny leads a team of legends (Rogue, Santiago, Morgan Blackhand, Shaitan, Spider Murphy...) and the player characters to accomplish that goal.
That part is not in the game, and that's a pity.

 

[amikae]

Cyberpunk 2077 Johnny is a mix between "Never Fade Away" short story / scenario of Cyberpunk 2013 P&P RPG and the conclusion of the Firestorm Campaign for Cyberpunk 2020 P&P RPG.

In this world, Arasaka is the most evil company, spying on everyone, corrupting everything and killing anyone without any second thought. Johnny lost Alt to Arasaka, and a lot of friends too. He set up a gig and started a riot to recover Alt from Arasaka. He succeeded, in a way, freeing her as an AI in the cyberspace. This part is OK in the game.
Then, some years later, Arasaka and Militech are involved in a corpo war. A war that is shaking the Cyberpunk world because those corpos are the most powerful and the collateral damages of their conflicts are tremendous.
To put an end to that war, the bombing of the Arasaka HQ in Night City is decided by Militech CEO and the President of the USA (or what's left of it). This bombing is to be made with a tactical nuke.
Johnnny leads a team of legends (Rogue, Santiago, Morgan Blackhand, Shaitan, Spider Murphy...) and the player characters to accomplish that goal.
That part is not in the game, and that's a pity.

Technically in the flashback Johnny does lead a team together with Rogue, Spider Murphy and someone else I forgot the name. There is no stated connection to Militech though and Johnny gets caught by Adam Smasher. I don't know if that's how it went down in the P&P campaign.

 

[onosendai7]

In the video game, Johnny states that the nuke has been liberated from Militech. The other one you forget the name is Shaitan, a full borg solo (equivalent to Smasher).
In the P&P campaign, the Player Characters are the ones to plant the nuke (or trying to).
The problem you expose is from the fact the CDPR made 1 single story from 2, and that the Evil side of Arasaka is not stressed enough in the video game.

 

[Mikeindeepspace]

Luke skywalker blew up the death star....

 

[amikae]

In the video game, Johnny states that the nuke has been liberated from Militech. The other one you forget the name is Shaitan, a full borg solo (equivalent to Smasher).
In the P&P campaign, the Player Characters are the ones to plant the nuke (or trying to).
The problem you expose is from the fact the CDPR made 1 single story from 2, and that the Evil side of Arasaka is not stressed enough in the video game.

I think it is stressed quite well actually. Especially in the ending where you help Arasaka directly. In that ending you get to watch the news while you recover and Saburo Arasaka takes over the body of Yorinobu. You really get the sense that evil has won as Yorinobu wanted to change Arasaka from the inside, but was foiled by our hand. Saburo is back and has become immortal. It's a pretty grim ending.

Though I think CDProjekt were reluctant to make Arasaka the number 1 world power in the video game. It will severely limit their options in regards to the other corps.

I think their iteration works well. Arasaka is still a global power, but it doesn't hold all the cards and there are other powerful corporations as well. It opens up the story more for future expansions and games. Militech looks to be very powerful and there is the mystery with Peralez that I doubt is Arasaka. The future looks quite interesting.

 

[GigaNoodle]

You're not supposed to justify what he did, to yourself or anyone else. That's Johnny's character and his story. It's about how he traded everything including his own life because he was blinded by hatred and his need for revenge, and how V can learn from his mistakes.

 

[Tag006]

This is a solid question. I like how it illustrates how morally gray everything is. Johnny is obviously a self righteous nut job, but at the same time, so is everyone you meet. Its just who agrees more with your own personal view. In this settling of a technocracy where government is more just a suggestion, rules aren't written, and justice is upheld by only those with the fire power. It does a great job at showing how humanity would react in such an environment. For me I like the characters that make the most sense. For me, Johnny lacks any sense ability and is an emotional reactionary. Hes no different than youre average occupy or antifa type protester. People like him exist. You also have your araskas like the soros and zuckerburg. There are actual corrupt corporations despite the majority not being a bad thing. You have the police corruption lie the river story line. Where you have a corrupt cop upholding the system, and cop commiting acts of corruption against the system for justice. The clouds arc shows the issue with sex worker industry. Most people who enter that profession do not understand business, so the question is can they survive in the business game or do you offer them their own autonomy and rights as people and not products. Regardless of how you personally feel, its the debate. Each side character is a lens into a modern debate. I think CP77 did a great job of this. So am I justifying Johnny's terrorism, no. For his character to be that character, that makes sense to me and is justifiable.