[SPOILERS] My personal beef with CP77- How can we justify Johnny's terrorism? Really?

[HonestBenny]

I was thinking about that the other day. It's my very personal grip so if you don't agree - you have right, I won't argue.

[...]

So I quite don't understand narrative pushed on me that Jhonny deserves any different treatment, sympathy or second chance. Redemtion? Forgivness? Guy detonate a GOD DUCK NUCLEAR WARHEAD. Half million people are killed . HALF MILLION. Workers, people in parking lot, people that was driving cars, people in cafes, people who were going back from home, working overhours. Again, not evil Arasaka overlords, not CEOs, workers. Even dam Arasaka guards/soldiers were just there doing their job. How many more died from fallout?

Jhonny did that because he believed what he did was just. He believed that Arasaka is symbol of evil. That Corporations are symbol of evil and people that don't agree with him are no better than Arasaka. But he didn't just destroy tower. He murdered people. Night City citizies. Husbands, fathers, mothers, sons etc. He murdered people for his agenda.

There is no difference between those two acts. Both were out of hatred and act of terror that targeted innocent people behind the banner of "Fighting for Greater Good". World held breath over 2973, saying "never negotiate with terrorist. No forgiveness for terror". Here we have half million people killed.

Yet in game you have "Silverhand Special" drink? Jhonny the Night City Legend? Is that a joke? How is he different from Al Kaida?

Now I am not American even. But there is something wrong in trying to justify terrorism in any way. There is no forgiveness for it.

People say that Jhonny is great character. I disagree with it. He is god dam mass murderer, no better than Saburo or Yorinobu or those from our reality that destroyed WTC, shot people in Paris cafe or bombed Moskov metro. You think he is cool guy cause he drink, smokes, play rock and has witty dialogues? What about half million dead innocent people? You think they families would find Jhoony a great character? Cool guy.

At the end of the game it really made me sick of game story trying me to sympatise with terrorist. Seriously, there is something wrong with it. "I know I did many things wrong". Really? You did? I don't think Jhonny ever really understands that he make half million people die, and made thousands families cry in pain.

That is my take on it. Yes, it's personal, but I feel like I should have said it.

 

[db_rando]

I mean it's fiction. Do you feel outraged over all the people you kill in all your video games? I mean, are you outraged when over all the poor sons and mothers you ran over in GTA V and do you feel a need to compare it to a school shooting?

Anyway the CP2077 world is basically as shitty as it gets. There is no sanctity given to human life anyway - unless you pay up, you're left to bleed out on the streets. The police won't even go in the poorer areas, you're left on your own. Everybody knows that scavs exist, and basically farm civilians for organs, but nobody seems to give half a shit and there is no real organised effort to stop them. In fact most people turn a blind eye because they're an easy source of cheap cyberware.

The 'black market' on BDs seems pretty casual - BDs of kids getting gutted on camera seem as widespread as weed is in our world - you run into them 10 times during your playthrough - the NPCs are so casual about it. A guy crucifies himself on BD in hopes of getting the people to wake up and the experience becomes a quick thrill for the fetishists.

In the poorer areas 50% of the women you run into are hookers, while people just eat their goop, consume TV and are trapped in a 24/7 feed of whatever bullshit the corps feed them. And don't even get me started on all the implants - it's implied you are basically giving up your humanity, but you can't even compete on the job market without one, so you either go under the knife or starve.

It's a very dark, hopeless world behind the neon lights and the cool aesthetic. Outside of the nomads things like love, family, and unity are replaced with fleeting pleasures like fucking, eating and getting the newest cyberware - there is literally no actual value or purpose beneath all the shiny shit.

I disagree with Johnny but I do understand him. To him the world is dead and doomed anyway.

CDPR fucked a lot of things up but it did a decent job of making us understand Johnny. And in the end you do have a choice to just never forgive him and basically shit on him every chance you get.

 

[HonestBenny]

I disagree with Johnny but I do understand him. To him the world is dead and doomed anyway.

I do understand him in a sense that he thinks the world is already death and it's all an enthropy eating society.

Still doesn't justify murdering half million people. He is just terrorist nothing else. If Saburo is like Stalin, then Jhonny is like Bind Laden. Both are the same kind of human scum.

Game try all the time to tell me that Arasaka is symbol of evil. But Jhonny is the same. Killing and sacreficing innocent people for profit is no different than doing it for ideology.

This is the part there it all feels like hypocrisy - how is Jhonny better than Arasaka. He is not. He walked on pile of corspses same as them.

Terrorism, slavery, benefiting from poor, kids BDs - it's all the same.

 

[db_rando]

I do understand him in a sense that he thinks the world is already death and it's all an enthropy eating socienty.

Still doesn't justify murdering half million people. He is just terrorist nothing else. If Saburo is like Stalin, then Jhonny is like Bind Laden. Both are the same kind of human scum.

Game try all the time to tell me that Arasaka is symbol of evil. But Jhonny is the same. Killing and sacreficing innocent people for profit is no different than doing it for ideology.

This is the part there it all feels like hypocrisy - how is Jhonny better than Arasaka. He is not. He walked on pile of corspses same as them.

Terrorism, slavery, benefiting from poor, kids BDs - it's all the same.

I mean I get your point and you do have an option to just shit on him every step of the story, give him no control and kill him in the end. You can totally express that he is no better than Arasaka in the story and pick a path that doesn't side with him.

 

[Void Eclipse]

Silverhand is not a terrorist. When you finish the whole story, you'll know.

 

[Schanana]

Johnny is just a terrorist coz he didn't manage to change a single thing! If stuff woulda worked out - people would've hailed him as a revolutinary that brought great change upon the world - prolly erected statues of his stupid mug too

The beauty about this is - like the person before me said, you can choose if you wanna sympathize with him... or tell him to f*ck off ^^

 

[jahkin]

Hm, I think you mistake some things here. Johnny is indeed an asshole. And the game shows us that over and over again. In cyberspace-flashbacks, and with Johnny's cynical comments all the time. Not to mention how he treats V the first time etc.

In the world of CB johnny also is not a terrorist at all. https://cyberpunk.fandom.com/wiki/The_Night_City_Holocaust

"In the public's eyes, the reasoning for the nuclear detonation is never uncovered. Some believe it was Militech's overzealous desire to crush Arasaka, while others believe it was an area denial weapon meant to protect the Arasaka Towers.[3] "

Because nobody really knows that it was him trying to nuke Arasaka Tower. So to the public eye, he is still the rebellious Rockerboy that vanished, not the terrorist that nuked a building and killed thousands (though in fairness, he wanted to reduce that...but...if you bring a nuke, you are responsible for what happens imho). So of course they name drinks after him etc.

And even of they knew ... the world of cyberpunk also glorifies sex, abuse (dolls), violence, holds human life in low regard unless you have money etc. And like johnny, the corps, the gangs, the ads, TV shows are never really "glorified" but satirized.

Reminds me a little of Star Ship Troopers, which many saw as glorifying fasism...yep, because heaps of young people getting horribly slaughtered etc is a great ad for faascism ... though nowadays, looking at the general intelligence of people around the world and specifically the USA ... ugh...guess indeed some would see it as great...

 

[tavellone]

Very insightful comment. I learnt a lot

Well okay. Do you go to Activision forums and say how angry you are at the glorifying of [...] imperialism and global policing by Call of Duty? Do you go to paradox forum and complain about Europa universalis' representation of slave labour? Do you write letters to JRR Tolkien's estate explaining how upset you are about his depiction of orc being clearly racist? Am I making my point or should I go on? It's a game, man and frankly the game doesn't exactly exhalt Johnny Silverhand's actions and even if it did, [...]

Also one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter and all that jazz.

 

[HonestBenny]

Well okay. Do you go to Activision forums and say how angry you are at the glorifying of [...] imperialism and global policing by Call of Duty? Do you go to paradox forum and complain about Europa universalis' representation of slave labour?

No becasue I don't play those games. I played this one though.

Do you write letters to JRR Tolkien's estate explaining how upset you are about his depiction of orc being clearly racist?

Bad example. Orc are born evil and represents evil, because they are corrupted elfes. In Fantasy good and evil are easly distinguished because spieces are purely fiction. Humans on the other hand, not counting psychos, are not born evil. In Fantasy certain spieces are just evil for the sake of fantasy setting. But this example doesn't fit here at all.

Also one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter and all that jazz.

Yup, for Al-Kaida WTC guys were heroes. So I get that jazz.

Post automatically merged: Dec 21, 2020

Because nobody really knows that it was him trying to nuke Arasaka Tower. So to the public eye, he is still the rebellious Rockerboy that vanished, not the terrorist that nuked a building and killed thousands (though in fairness, he wanted to reduce that...but...if you bring a nuke, you are responsible for what happens imho). So of course they name drinks after him etc.

That is actually a good point about public knowledge. Thanks.

But we (V and players) know that it was him. And game tries its best to tell us that Jhonny deserves second chance while we know very well what he did. Hence why I find it riddiculous. Who would give second chance to guy who murdered half million people. [...] Hence why I found narrative like that leaving a bad taste in my mouth.

Post automatically merged: Dec 21, 2020

The actions of Silverhand are furthermore taking place against a regime which is by all but name a plutocratic dictatorship.

So yeah, the guy is not a good guy, but we shouldn't be to prone to judge.

I doubt half million people around Tower were part of "regime". On the contrary- they were the one oppressed by regime. So it's kind of hard to turn people against regime by murdering them in the name of fighting regime, no?

Post automatically merged: Dec 21, 2020

Silverhand is not a terrorist. When you finish the whole story, you'll know.

I did finish whole story. He is terrorist, prick, selfish egoistic narcissist and not better than Araska. Just other side of same coin.

 

[TheL7]

So because of people like this, CDPR had to change Night City from a distopic nightmare to a neon nursery. I understand.

 

[jahkin]

Fiction is full of villains going on redemption arcs.

Most prominent example is Darth Vader, a mass murderer and child killer, who in the end still was allowed to Jedi heaven for a single good deed.

I haven't finished the game yet, only hear because endings were spoilered to me and I HATE all of it I heard. But from my understanding it is up to us to decide giving Johnny a second chance or not.

What the game does is letting you form an opinion on him. We see Johnny's dark, cynical side. But there are also moments where he comes across as a funny and good guy. He is not an easy character to have around or to deal with. The game does that quite good.

But personally, I would never sacrifice myself/my V for him, and I told him so. He replied with, I summarize "I would let you keep your body, V, I would take the bullet"

So yeah, Johnny is not a good guy. Never was supposed to be. And the game, at least to me, never tries to presure him as good guy onto me either, at least until act2 is over...not sure what comes next, not sure I wanna know...

 

[SigilFey]

As per the Forum Regulations, discussion of real-world politics and social issues is not permitted. Be sure this discussion remains on the fictional world of the game. The philosophy and reasoning behind that is fine.

 

[HonestBenny]

Fiction is full of villains going on redemption arcs.

Most prominent example is Darth Vader, a mass murderer and child killer, who in the end still was allowed to Jedi heaven for a single good deed.

I haven't finished the game yet, only hear because endings were spoilered to me and I HATE all of it I heard. But from my understanding it is up to us to decide giving Johnny a second chance or not.

What the game does is letting you form an opinion on him. We see Johnny's dark, cynical side. But there are also moments where he comes across as a funny and good guy. He is not an easy character to have around or to deal with. The game does that quite good.

But personally, I would never sacrifice myself/my V for him, and I told him so. He replied with, I summarize "I would let you keep your body, V, I would take the bullet"

So yeah, Johnny is not a good guy. Never was supposed to be. And the game, at least to me, never tries to presure him as good guy onto me either, at least until act2 is over...not sure what comes next, not sure I wanna know...

No worries. I understand. It just rubbed me a wrong way. The good thing is I can perma kill him in one ending so at least I got that. I just don't like his narrative, that's all.

But of course each to his own. It's individual experience. I just wanted to share my doubts. Nothing more.

 

[tavellone]

No becasue I don't play those games. I played this one though.

Well okay then. All I can say is that I am sorry that this game depicts a character in a light you disagree with. Art doesn't have to cater to your tastes or to your view of what is right or wrong. My first post here was simply 'lol' because it seems a bit juvenile to me to get angry about a representation of a fictional militant anarchist rockstar killing people. How about this, your character probably kills hundreds if not thousands of people who are doing their jobs or simply living their life. Not once do you as a character or a player have any qualms about the piles of bodies in your wake. Are you going to snap your game disc in half because nthe game has forced your character and you as a player to become a psychotic mass murderer, all for the sake of profit and your own selfish agenda?

Bad example. Orc are born evil and represents evil, because they are corrupted elfes. In Fantasy good and evil are easly distinguished because spieces are purely fiction

No it's actually a perfect example, it has been long considered that orcs are a caricature of Asian people, this is an offhand point in any case and it doesn't matter much.

 

[Rhyzur]

I don't like how V instantly starts calling him a terrorist. You'd think in V's lifestyle, she wouldn't recognize him as such so adamantly. He has his own drink in the Afterlife that you can only earn for being a top notch merc. Merc. Not terrorist.

 

[Garrison72]

Can we not have spoilers in thread titles please? Jesus christ.

 

[jahkin]

No worries. I understand. It just rubbed me a wrong way. The good thing is I can perma kill him in one ending so at least I got that. I just don't like his narrative, that's all.

But of course each to his own. It's individual experience. I just wanted to share my doubts. Nothing more.

i don't think you have to apologize or anything. Not for a discussion of personal opinions that did not include any namecalling or something ^^

 

[Hysar]

I beat the game a multitude of different ways. There are no more quests, cars on the road, or pedestrians but I miss that sarcastic inner voice the most.

 

[Szormokpicsaneni]

You missed the whole point of the game. Plus it's up to you how you treat Johnny. Plus even Johnny remarks that life has no meaning whatsoever in Night CIty. The city is f_cked up, the people are brainwashed/deluded into a terrible life, and corporations suck the blood out of the already anemic population.

 

[SigilFey]

Can we not have spoilers in thread titles please? Jesus christ.

This is a very good point -- didn't even register when I read it. I'll edit it now.