**Spoilers** Panam Vs Judy **Spoilers**

[dreambled]

What always bugged me with Judies quest for Clouds is V is a experienced Merc. He should have known the Tyger Gang would go on a warpath if someone messes with their turf. A independant Clouds would not be possible.
They would need the backing of a Gang like the Mox, or more then 2 Dolls with Combat programmming to even have a chance. It is a wonder that Judy got away without the Tygers hunting her down.

Judy is very creative in technical fields but not really a leader material, which itself isn't surprising as most people aren't. Whole Clouds coup plan was built on sand from the start.

Yeah, the planning meeting should have been the time for V, or at least a specific type of V like a Street Kid or high Body stat V, to bring up that the Tyger Claws aren't going to take this lying down and they need to have a follow up plan to deal with retaliation. CDPR didn't give us the opportunity for whatever reason.

 

[Goodmongo]

I mean people die in war and combat, it's inevitable

So please tell me you are NOT trying to equate this with a war. You really are now stretching to find anything positive to say.

Judy's plan ended in failure, plain and simple. Panam's plans ended up getting innocent people killed.

 

[poldengonyboy]

So please tell me you are NOT trying to equate this with a war. You really are now stretching to find anything positive to say.

Judy's plan ended in failure, plain and simple. Panam's plans ended up getting innocent people killed.

I said war AND combat, meaning when you have two sides fighting each other with guns and other weapons it's bound that people are going to die on both sides, however what would be the difference if I equated it strictly to war? My point still rings true, people die in armed conflicts on both sides, loss is inevitable. I'll agree with you, Judy's plan ultimately failed, but I was just making that argument to say that although her plan wasn't that great, it wasn't some kamikaze attack based purely off emotions and it did achieve initial success (although short lived) due to her refitting the doll chips with solo capabilities.

I don't know what you expected from Panam's plans, of course people were going to die that's what happens in armed conflicts. I wouldn't say the Aldecaldo's are innocent either, they all knew what they were signing up for when they raided Arasaka, only instance where anyone died who shouldn't have was when we downed the Kang Tao AV and Scorpion died, but who could've predicted Scorpion and Mitch would show up to try and rescue the downed crew? How is that Panam's fault? Still at the end of the day the plan worked and we got Hellman, other plans from Panam are saving saul (complete success, no casualties) and stealing the basilisk (complete success, no casualties).

Overall I'm trying to say that they're not (especially Panam) dummies who act before thinking and lack the capabilities to use logic to plan things out.

 

[Vitalurg]

So please tell me you are NOT trying to equate this with a war. You really are now stretching to find anything positive to say.

Judy's plan ended in failure, plain and simple. Panam's plans ended up getting innocent people killed.

Speaking of Panam.
Simple facts. All Panam plans (Hellman kidnapping, Saul rescuing, Basilisk mission) were successful no matter how mad and impossible they seemed.
Scorpion died by his own mistake. Even veterans like Mitch and Scorpions can overestimated their opportunities. They could predict that crashed AV had equipped guard and can resist them, if they want to get too close. That was not Panam’s fault.
At the end Saul had to admit he was wrong in many his claims and words about Panam and her vision of clan life and future.

 

[enkee23]

So please tell me you are NOT trying to equate this with a war. You really are now stretching to find anything positive to say.
Judy's plan ended in failure, plain and simple. Panam's plans ended up getting innocent people killed.

panam and avocados has plot armour, there is not any logic
if story was a little bit more real all their plans should flatlined all of them
but we have what we have

judy has no magic, bad planning => bad result

 

[poldengonyboy]

panam and avocados has plot armour, there is not any logic
if story was a little bit more real all their plans should flatlined all of them
but we have what we have

judy has no magic, bad planning => bad result

If the story was realistic V would've died by getting shot in the head from Dex and that would've been the end of the game man hahaha. Every main character in pretty much every story ever has plot armour or plot magic, that's a silly argument

 

[enkee23]

If the story was realistic V would've died by getting shot in the head from Dex and that would've been the end of the game man hahaha. Every main character in pretty much every story ever has plot armour or plot magic, that's a silly argument

because he really died, than died again in mikoshi and again in a 6 months, you have literally three different v
everyone who stands again corpos dies: v, jackie, t-bug, dex, evelyn, takemura, yorinobu, rogue, johnny, alt
but not panam
[...]

 

[poldengonyboy]

because he really died, than died again in mikoshi and again in a 6 months, you have literally three different v
everyone who stands again corpos dies: v, jackie, t-bug, dex, evelyn, takemura, yorinobu, rogue, johnny, alt
but not panam
[...]

Did Hellman die? Yorinobu only dies in one ending and he's not even a main character, does Wakako die? She helped set up the kidnaping of Hanako. V doesn't die in any ending but the suicide ending, Alt dies but her conscious is preserved and she now is basically omnipotent and with just slotting her into a machine, single handedly destroys Mikoshi and cripples Arasaka. Rogue only dies in one ending too, even though she already raided Arasaka tower twice once by setting off a nuke in it. Plenty of Aldecaldo's die in the game. The Voodoo boys planned the whole heist in the first place, and they don't get killed by Arasaka, only by us if we choose too.

This isn't a realistic game, we can go into Arasaka by ourselves in the secret ending and kill everybody. So not only are you wrong in saying that they're the only ones with this "plot armour", I still really don't get what point you're trying to make here. There's a thing called suspension of disbelief in story's, if you don't use it every single story ever falls apart due to "plot holes" or "plot armour". But anyways we're getting off topic.

 

[Draconifors]

Several posts deleted or edited. Rudeness and personal attacks are not welcome, and neither are personal skirmishes.
Also, stay on topic.