[SPOILERS] Smuggling runs

+
This is a split from other topic.

General idea is to flesh out how law enforcement works in the game. This is not about making GTA with cyberpunk visuals, but exploration of what could be done with the game and settings we have, including story.


Police system looks like abstraction from police coming from AV's, except we never see AV's. Police drones make perfect sense to me. I don't have much experience with that as I has ended up fighting police due glitch in 1.3 and solving Sinnerman by eliminating Sinnerman and producer in their car. Something to enhance that would be other contractors appearing faster, sort of reverse NCPD missions and MaxTac response later depending from location.

Lack of GTA like police chases was one of the most critiqued aspects, even when CDRP was very clear that game isn't like that. Then there's been discussion about what game engine and AI can do, but it's also missing the point. The get most intense experience like that, it doesn't come from GTA series but NFS: Heat night events. And over months, I have found it very funny how people who want this better experience just don't want to discuss about that experience anymore after NFS: Heat where player needs to think game world strategically to make it when they have more wanted level. Helicopters are real threat in NFS: Heat and in CP 2077 AV's could cover that role with fast response drones, that don't need to follow the road and drones have weapons.

Would be pretty neat setup for smuggling run in Badlands. V in car vs. all that and that's pretty much only scenario that makes sense as major vehicular threat would be eliminated directly from AV's patrolling in city skies via missiles and/or machine guns.

But runs from city limits to border or other way around, I could see that work and with all things game has being very intense experience and these missions could be also quite short would help with that there's no skill experience from driving events.

There could be variations for this. V could be intercepting Raffen Shiv cargo, turning V from being chased to chaser. Mission could perhaps end in capture of shipment, or smuggler escaping or losing cargo to NCDP forces (eliminated smugglers car, but V doesn't get the goods before NCDP arriving with AV's).

CP 2077 is story focused game, adventure or RPG, definition doesn't matter so story opportunities would be portraying smugglers other than Nomads. Where the goods end, what kind of things, for what purpose and what kind of people are demand what sort of goods.

Finally to be honest, I don't really believe anything like this is going to be implemented in CP 2077 but might be useful for future titles. In cyberpunk worlds, that's actually well referenced in CP 2077 in a novel Hardwired by Walter Jon Williams main character is a former panzer boy and a smuggler and Hardwired was also a module or something like that for original Cyberpunk tabletop game. Myself, for me the best thing was Johnny Silverhand's comment about showing the tech and personally I think that's very good substance delivered from things that inspired tabletop game and I don't really need smuggling runs to make game better for me, but discussing about that and possible positive impact of how players feel about NCDP and possible other factions and individuals in game is a way to kill time.

For me, it is about realism. You probably don't believe me (why would you? this is the internet) but it truly is.

I would take one-shot kill MaxTac squads at maximum wanted level any day over what we have currently. A realist and immersive police system implies appropriate level of response relatively to the game and it's lore/setting and your actions. MaxTac coming in to simply end you makes perfect sense at maximum wanted level because you killed a bunch of police officers or whole lot of civilians by that point and you need to die.

You're painting with a broad brush here. Not every GTA fan is the rampage loving kind you seem to think they are. One can play and enjoy the hell out of GTA without spending every minute blowing shit up.

This last bit I aim generally.

We all agree the police system is mediocre at best. Just because you don't care for it getting better doesn't mean you should dismiss other people's opinions/feedback on improving the system or try to shut down conversations about it. At worst the feedback will be ignored and at best we'll all get something better and you'll still be free to stay completely out of trouble and ignore the system completely.
 
Last edited:
Frankly, I like your idea of a NSF: Heat styled chase system. I thought NSF: Heat was one of the better NSF since NSF:U

Yet, I don't see this conversation going any other way than any of the previous, there has been countless since release. I want the world to react accordingly to my actions based on it's own lore and setting. Regardless of the game. This is immersion. Yet any mention of the police reacting to your actions apparently gets you lumped in the ''rabid dogs hellbent on destruction and mayhem'' lot.

Accidents don't happen and there is only one valid way to play the game apparently.

Bottom line, CDPR has proven in patch 1.20 that they've heard the community about this issue. The wording made it sound like the steps undertaken in 1.20 were but groundwork laid out for future improvements. They don't seem satisfied with the police system either. Whether that proves to be true or not remains to be seen.

If they do implement a better police system or not is entirely up to them.
 
What CDPR does is up to them, that should go without saying, but like I wrote this is more about exploration of idea just for the sake of that and possible future titles, CP 2077 being their first game with cars and that.

Something I was thinking about were ambushes, what if chase comes to player?
 
What CDPR does is up to them, that should go without saying, but like I wrote this is more about exploration of idea just for the sake of that and possible future titles, CP 2077 being their first game with cars and that.

Something I was thinking about were ambushes, what if chase comes to player?

It's all good ideas.

The police system is completely barebones right now. It can't really be worse. Almost anything added to it would be beneficial. Smuggling missions with ambushes are definitely an interesting idea with some NCPD ambushes set up along the way. Sting operations must exist in the future too, right?

There is just so much resistance to any improvement of the system here even though it's almost 100% optional, it's beyond belief.
 
Good, I'll take from where we left

I'd still be far more interested in mechanism that would severely punish the players for reckless killing, whether it is introduction of an empathy cost or losing 1 level of street cred for every murder of the innocent. Killing civilians shouldn't lead to something fun in the game that takes itself seriously.
A good mechanics needs to react to players actions and not just punish him, giving the player freedom and then punishing them because they didn't play the way you (dev) want is the worst design ever. With the way street cred works in cp77 (bare bonuses and unlocks) you would just take away stuff from the player in the way you suggest. To have it good, you need to add bonuses to a negative reputation /street cred as well, like discounts from the black market (that is not in the game) or higher reputation with gangs (again not in the game).
I'm all in for an empathy stats, but again Devs didn't want it (humanity cost was deleted from 2018 demo).
It has nothing to do with a serious game, it's about having a reactive game that opens to emergent gameplay.
Now, given the police system is not working properly and most likely never will, the best solution for me would have been to just to cut it completely and make shooting to civilians impossible for the player. This system is already in the game for story NPCs, your gun just doesn't shoot. That's it, problem fix. Regarding vehicle, add invisible walls at the side of the streets so you can't go on the sidewalk and justify it with "AI in cars prevents them to leave the road". A simple phrase that fixes the suspension of disbelief to a great extent. The player understands, the problem doesn't exist, problem solved.
Less is more, one of the most effective designs when you're overdoing way above your skills. Of course, now it's too late to cut it so either they fix it or leave it the dull way it is now.
 
Last edited:
Yet, I don't see this conversation going any other way than any of the previous, there has been countless since release. I want the world to react accordingly to my actions based on it's own lore and setting. Regardless of the game. This is immersion. Yet any mention of the police reacting to your actions apparently gets you lumped in the ''rabid dogs hellbent on destruction and mayhem'' lot.
Yeah completely with you on this. Despite cp77 devs saying the police system is bugged and they are trying to improve it, WE can't talk about it without being gta freaks. I think I only finished the very first (2D) and the last gta story and I know I wasn't a crazy mayhem seeker but I felt the world proposed was more realistic to it's "lore" in the way this particular system operated within the game. And yes I do think this system is more important and should therefore be more complex in gta (I mean the theme of being a criminal and evading police happens often within missions also so it's a more integrated and more often requested system), but that doesn't mean it should be a placeholder in CP. If it's in the game it should be believable.
The begining section of the game acts as tutorial for a lot of systems, I see that scavenger first chase as a "tutorial" of a feature present in the game; same with the police chase with kerry and same with the Claire races which at the time is hilarious to look at the respawn dance of the other cars on the minimap. They wanted chases to work but at the time they don't. And I can already see the people justifying the curent police iteration as being intencional come and applaud the new system (if CDPR manages to improve it) for whatever reasons CDPR' PR introduces the new content.
But anyway for me the way to implement a good police system in accordance with this game's setting would include:
. Much less police presence for player actions; this is a violent city with lots of crime and a disfunctional police force. So I would place some police on certain spots, some police cars roaming (few). If crime is close to these units there is intervention if not player can commit crime without police presence. If player causes a lot of mayhem it triggers intervention.
. No police in Pacifica or the Badlands
. A hunted system should be in place, not only to send Arasaka at you (after some story events) and Voodoo Boys, etc, but also mercs if players engage too much in crime with police presence (NCPD will increase your criminal record and reward for other mercs to put down). This would not trigger however as player is doing a crime. It would be a background system that could trigger at random moments.

As some people mentioned on threads spread out it's not about recreating gta or other systems, it's about making it realistic for this environment and lore.
Post automatically merged:

Also because CP tries so hard in it's story to make V feel just like another Night City citizen whose actions don't interfere much on the global scheme of things but then the player accidentally shoots a civilian and The Force descends upon him while you watch maelstrooms in the distance causing mayhem without consequence.
 
Last edited:
But anyway for me the way to implement a good police system in accordance with this game's setting would include:
. Much less police presence for player actions; this is a violent city with lots of crime and a disfunctional police force. So I would place some police on certain spots, some police cars roaming (few). If crime is close to these units there is intervention if not player can commit crime without police presence. If player causes a lot of mayhem it triggers intervention.
. No police in Pacifica or the Badlands
. A hunted system should be in place, not only to send Arasaka at you (after some story events) and Voodoo Boys, etc, but also mercs if players engage too much in crime with police presence (NCPD will increase your criminal record and reward for other mercs to put down). This would not trigger however as player is doing a crime. It would be a background system that could trigger at random moments.
I'm not sure what this is about. NCPD presence is quite limited and V can witness the difference between district mega buildings as V's apartment there's police presence, but after that there's scene where Tyger Claws are shaking down a man selling things from his table in other megabuilding and there are several situations in NCPD-missions where NCDP is absolutely screwed. They can hold on somehow at Watson and City Center.

I'm not sure if I ever saw NCPD in Pacifica. Security there is done via Afterlife Mercenaries, it even says that if player scans them. It's also something explained in other events to players. Pacifica was excluded from NCDP operations to make crime statistics look better for political gains.

Also, I don't think I have seen NCPD in Badlands as border guards and other security is contracted to Militech, several missions where this is should become very obvious.

Hunted system should be in game. I haven't experimented myself but based on from what I have read, MaxTac and Mercenaries come after V if there's too many casualties for NCPD.

NCDP could be used believably in city outskirts setting up an ambush for smugglers I guess. City security... there's scene early in game where Jackie and V ride to V's megabuilding and Jackie stops when there's MaxTac operation where they come from AV and make short work of criminals. Think that scene had several goals in world building but problem might be for some players that it doesn't cover scenario where criminal trying to flee in a car is shot directly from AV. Then there's few things, I guess for performance reasons. Trauma Team has practice having AV's always on air to respond, that's one thing that makes them possible to respond so fast. NCPD / MaxTac probably have similar practice but limited, not having budget of Trauma Team (which is international mega corp among others). Anyway, how NCPD just seems to appear is an issue for regard that game assumes that players are aware that they can arrive in AV's even player doesn't see that after event witnessed by Jackie and V.

Flying NCPD drones and quite lethal aspect for them not to need to evade traffic when chasing and that, it's not demonstrated. Everyone in the city is aware of them but how aware players are?
Post automatically merged:

Edit: Added "...Anyway, how NCPD just seems to appear is an issue for regard that game assumes that players are aware that they can arrive in AV's even player doesn't see that after event witnessed by Jackie and V."
 
Last edited:

Guest 3847602

Guest
@CS554
I like the concept, it could be fun, but, like you, I wouldn't expect to see it before sequel comes out. Maaaaaybe in one of expansions, but I doubt it. Can't comment on NFS: Heat, last NFS game I've played (beside Shift 2) was High Stakes. :)
To have it good, you need to add bonuses to a negative reputation /street cred as well, like discounts from the black market (that is not in the game) or higher reputation with gangs (again not in the game).
Well, getting discount from black market doesn't seem like a logical consequence of killing civilians. Gangs fight each other, not random passers-by you see on the street, so I've no idea why would any of them be impressed by the carnage V had caused.
It has nothing to do with a serious game, it's about having a reactive game that opens to emergent gameplay.
It does. In a serious game there should be no incentive to go on the murderous rampage. None. Only severe negative consequences. Because that's kinda how real world works.
 
I'm not sure what this is about. NCPD presence is quite limited and V can witness the difference between district mega buildings as V's apartment there's police presence, but after that there's scene where Tyger Claws are shaking down a man selling things from his table in other megabuilding and there are several situations in NCPD-missions where NCDP is absolutely screwed. They can hold on somehow at Watson and City Center.

I'm not sure if I ever saw NCPD in Pacifica. Security there is done via Afterlife Mercenaries, it even says that if player scans them. It's also something explained in other events to players. Pacifica was excluded from NCDP operations to make crime statistics look better for political gains.

Also, I don't think I have seen NCPD in Badlands as border guards and other security is contracted to Militech, several missions where this is should become very obvious.

Hunted system should be in game. I haven't experimented myself but based on from what I have read, MaxTac and Mercenaries come after V if there's too many casualties for NCPD.

NCDP could be used believably in city outskirts setting up an ambush for smugglers I guess. City security... there's scene early in game where Jackie and V ride to V's megabuilding and Jackie stops when there's MaxTac operation where they come from AV and make short work of criminals. Think that scene had several goals in world building but problem might be for some players that it doesn't cover scenario where criminal trying to flee in a car is shot directly from AV. Then there's few things, I guess for performance reasons. Trauma Team has practice having AV's always on air to respond, that's one thing that makes them possible to respond so fast. NCPD / MaxTac probably have similar practice but limited, not having budget of Trauma Team (which is international mega corp among others).

Flying NCPD drones and quite lethal aspect for them not to need to evade traffic when chasing and that, it's not demonstrated. Everyone in the city is aware of them but how aware players are?
What i meant is the current wanted system doesn't reflect a believable system in this chaotic, diverse environment.
Being bount by the moral compasses of today's reality torwards crime and how law enforcment operates doesn't make sense in a reality where crime is so much more present than police force. Commiting a crime and having a wanted star, that gets bigger as the crimes pile up (which is quite gta'y) isn't the best option in my opinion. That's why I suggest (and i agree with you, maybe only on the next game will it be possible) that there is police presence that reacts to player action (indeed they should be more present in city center,...) or a reputation system that sends more mercs/police after player or if player goes on a long mayhem spree have maxtac intervene for example.
What bothers me most currently is the immediatism of police/merc presence.
I haven't been playing for a while now and did specially in watson in latest patches but i got police in Pacifica and the badlands before, although also mercs.
Post automatically merged:

It does. In a serious game there should be no incentive to go on the murderous rampage. None. Only severe negative consequences. Because that's kinda how real world works.
The thing is the game doesn't take place in our real world and should abide to it's reality
 
Fine, but CP 2020 lore doesn't lend itself to the type of game where players are encouraged in any way to kill innocents. There are no benefits for doing so in pnp game.
And no one is asking for benefits. We're asking for a system that makes sense.

Hell, GTA's system has literally no benefits for killing civilians either. How is dozens of police officers all the way through to the literal army (in older GTAs) trying to murder you a benefit? If a player has fun going a rampage, more power to them but the system isn't designed in any way to give you benefits for murdering innocents.

Unless you're trying to argue the few dollars civilians sometimes drops are benefits when missions are literally showering you with millions?

Commiting a crime and having a wanted star, that gets bigger as the crimes pile up (which is quite gta'y) isn't the best option in my opinion.

There aren't that many alternative. Obviously, killing some random civilian shouldn't be treated the same as killing a police officer or mass murdering innocents and the response should follow accordingly. The multiple star system GTA has been using forever is merely a visual representation of the measure of police response.

You need some indication for players to understand what's going on. You could have a simple ''wanted'' type of icon appearing when the police is after you and no indication that further crime being committed is increasing said police response but I that would be, in my opinion, be worse.
 
Fine, but CP 2020 lore doesn't lend itself to the type of game where players are encouraged in any way to kill innocents, either. There are no benefits for doing so in pnp game.
I hear you but as Mybrokenenglish stated above
"A good mechanics needs to react to players actions and not just punish him, giving the player freedom and then punishing them because they didn't play the way you (dev) want is the worst design ever."
If they create the freedom for a certain gameplay they need to mechanically make it fit into the game where it is believable in its setting. And I don't think the devs should be that upset with how people play the game in these regards. I mean someone can be extremely silly in playing any game. I could spend 3 in-game months in act 2 of cyberpunk going to lizzy's bar and dance with movement keys and look, simulating I'm dancing. It wouldn't make much sense according to the story, it's as if I'm spoiling the game for myself; if I would spend my time killing civilians I feel I would also be spoiling it for myself but what I think we should be analyzing is not how people are playing the game but if the game is framed well for the gameplay features it presents.
 
I hear you but as Mybrokenenglish stated above
"A good mechanics needs to react to players actions and not just punish him, giving the player freedom and then punishing them because they didn't play the way you (dev) want is the worst design ever."
If they create the freedom for a certain gameplay they need to mechanically make it fit into the game where it is believable in its setting. And I don't think the devs should be that upset with how people play the game in these regards. I mean someone can be extremely silly in playing any game. I could spend 3 in-game months in act 2 of cyberpunk going to lizzy's bar and dance with movement keys and look, simulating I'm dancing. It wouldn't make much sense according to the story, it's as if I'm spoiling the game for myself; if I would spend my time killing civilians I feel I would also be spoiling it for myself but what I think we should be analyzing is not how people are playing the game but if the game is framed well for the gameplay features it presents.

Side note: interactive bars, including dancing, have been requested quite a lot since release.

I don't care for it myself but if it gets added it'll be good for those who asked it. Although I highly doubt it'll be.
 
And no one is asking for benefits. We're asking for a system that makes sense.

Hell, GTA's system has literally no benefits for killing civilians either. How is dozens of police officers all the way through to the literal army (in older GTAs) trying to murder you a benefit? If a player has fun going a rampage, more power to them but the system isn't designed in any way to give you benefits for murdering innocents.

Unless you're trying to argue the few dollars civilians sometimes drops are benefits when missions are literally showering you with millions?



There aren't that many alternative. Obviously, killing some random civilian shouldn't be treated the same as killing a police officer or mass murdering innocents and the response should follow accordingly. The multiple star system GTA has been using forever is merely a visual representation of the measure of police response.

You need some indication for players to understand what's going on. You could have a simple ''wanted'' type of icon appearing when the police is after you and no indication that further crime being committed is increasing said police response but I that would be, in my opinion, be worse.
I was just wondering if it's the best for cyberpunk. I agree there needs to be representation of what's happening. What I don't think works well here is a star when the crime is commited with an invariable countdown for its consequences. So maybe if star only shows when/if police presence is activated which would depend on other factors for it to happen.
Example: crime is comitted in front of police, star appears and grows if crimes continue.
No star for crime in middle of the desert.
Enough crimes with police presence - raise wanted status of player and chance for hunted (by mercs and police). If hunted triggers so does stars appear.
Something along these lines would be my suggestion.
 

Guest 3847602

Guest
If a player has fun going a rampage, more power to them but the system isn't designed in any way to give you benefits for murdering innocents.
It is designed to be fun as a rampage game. Combat with police is not very punishing, your cars are durable enough to withstand long chases with them and there are no negative consequences for causing mayhem. GTA is intentionally made to be unrealistic in such a way to make the rampage fun.
So, the police system that I'd wanna see in any Cyberpunk game would be the triumvirate of:
- brutally lethal NCPD and MaxTac (that can chase you when needed)
- realistically durable cars
- severe and permanent penalties to reputation for playing like a mass murderer
"A good mechanics needs to react to players actions and not just punish him, giving the player freedom and then punishing them because they didn't play the way you (dev) want is the worst design ever."
Disagree completely. Inventing artificial, illogical benefits (or drawbacks) for the sake of "balance" is the worst design ever. :shrug:
 
I was just wondering if it's the best for cyberpunk. I agree there needs to be representation of what's happening. What I don't think works well here is a star when the crime is commited with an invariable countdown for its consequences. So maybe if star only shows when/if police presence is activated which would depend on other factors for it to happen.
Example: crime is comitted in front of police, star appears and grows if crimes continue.
No star for crime in middle of the desert.
Enough crimes with police presence - raise wanted status of player and chance for hunted (by mercs and police). If hunted triggers so does stars appear.
Something along these lines would be my suggestion.

That definitely makes a whole more sense than the current system.

We're getting closer to the law system in place in Skyrim. Use to be committing a crime in front of a chicken would count (it was a bug) but ultimately crime with no witness doesn't register.

It's definitely an ideal way of registering crime but I don't see anything close to it ever making it into CP2077.

It is designed to be fun as a rampage game. Combat with police is not very punishing, your cars are durable enough to withstand long chases with them and there are no negative consequences for causing mayhem. GTA is intentionally made to be unrealistic in such a way to make the rampage fun.

It's fun for a whole lot of 5 minutes.

The vast majority doesn't play GTA in a constant state of rampage. Yes, GTA makes it in such a way that you can survive but to say there are benefits to going on a rampage is completely false. It is meant to kill you, period. If you survive and manage to evade the police, good for you but the system isn't designed to reward you, it is meant to kill you.

So, police system that I'd wanna see in any Cyberpunk game would be the triumvirate of:
- brutally lethal NCPD and MaxTac (that can chase you when needed)

Agreed

- realistically durable cars

Already in place, somewhat.

- severe and permanent penalties to reputation for playing like a mass murderer

We'd need a reputation system first :ROFLMAO:

EDIT: I made a light hearted joke at this last point but to be honest I disagree wholeheartedly with this. What I'm reading isn't ''realistic/immersive system'', what I'm reading is ''I want people to be permanently punished for playing in a way I disagree with'' which is not something I could ever agree with.
 
Last edited:
Well, getting discount from black market doesn't seem like a logical consequence of killing civilians. Gangs fight each other, not random passers-by you see on the street, so I've no idea why would any of them be impressed by the carnage V had caused.
Not directly from killing civilians but from a lower reputation in terms of karma or paragon/renegade. Anyway, I was just making examples, I don't really like the karma systems.
It does. In a serious game there should be no incentive to go on the murderous rampage. None. Only severe negative consequences. Because that's kinda how real world works.
No, you could potentially role play as a psycho (cyberpsycho maybe?) or a terrorist ior an anarchist who hates the police/government/institutions in an extremely serious role playing game. The villain role is present in almost all table top RPGs and unluckily in real life too.
You could even start a little mess close to a gang "outpost" see police arrive, hide and trick the AI to come and fight the gang for you. If the game has reactive systems you can play with them and have creative and fun solutions. Which is the greatest thing of immersive Sims. But that's another genre so I wouldn't stretch too much.

Just to make it clear: I couldn't care less of a good police system in cyberpunk. If it's there, good, of it's not there, fine, if it's there and it doesn't work it's just annoying the moment you are forced to interact with it.
 
Last edited:
Fine, but CP 2020 lore doesn't lend itself to the type of game where players are encouraged in any way to kill innocents, either. There are no benefits for doing so in pnp game.
In PnP basically the game director takes your character sheet away from you if you start to accumulate that type of behaviour, ask you to roll a new character and if he/she feels a little bit sadistic your 1st quest with the new character implies either you killing your old character,or your old character is trying to kill you. You can even lose humanity by "mistakes"( i did a shootout i killed a poor kid accidentally,i'm not a psychopath so i have nightmares at night),
In computer games,Bloodlines has both Masquerade and Humanity points that works that way... even if you are a "monster" the devs didn't allow you to unleash the beast.
This would have been a good system in cp2077 for police: you hit 0 points humanity MaxTac appears and 1 shots you.
Just add humanity as an attribute at character creation that you cannot recover when leveling, but you can lose by killing "non-mission targets"-killing a cop, in cold blood in the middle of the street not involved in a mission should be punished i think-with perhaps some quests (free helping NPCs, there are few of them) that allow to recover some. Remove spawning cops,just fixed control posts(they don't have budget anymore for patrols) without reinforcements.
This adds a mechanic that respects lore and allows player freedom with some margin (say humanity minimum 3 at character creation,10 maximum,5 "non-hostile kills cost you a point of humanity, between 15 to 50 innocents killed...i doubt i killed by accident more than five, but give some freedom).
 
Top Bottom