[SPOILERS] Soulkiller technology

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this is not exactly the same example, because you are comparing temporary changes, for example, growth, that child is no longer there, there is an adult, of course the person is the same

wiki is just as vague
2077: Soulkiller only copies the psyche and memories of a person, killing the person and does not transfer a consciousness ... engram can .... overwrite any previous engram's on it ... while keeping his consciousness and memories ...

Well, by which means do you identify an entity? And from which perspective?

V the engram is not V the human. The engram merely has the memory, and personality, and a consciousness based on the former both that mirrors the human Vs consciousness, but it is a new entity from a material perspective.

V the engram itself can not make this distinction. V the engram experiences no “transition” but a continuous state of consciousness.

There is no absolute truth here, as long as the framing is not defined more clearly.
 
In the first meeting, Alt says that she will record consciousness and engram, but the soul will cease to exist.
But then in the final after Mikoshi Alt says that V will continue to live as before if he returns to his body.

Are there any other references in the game about the soul and what does it mean?
Does soulkiller really transfer the real V? Do we see the new copied V in the epilogue?
I ask you not to speculate and to show facts from the game itself or lore if it's possible.
I have no idea
 
The answer you seek is less about the setting than this:

* Alt Cunningham believes in the soul and the existence of higher things than reality. She believes the old thing is exstinquished and replaced with the construct.

* Johnny is a materialist who doesn't believe in the soul. So he doesn't care.

Now you can argue that Alt as a Cybergoddess has more insight into the nature of reality than Johnny or you can say its just a leftover from her human persona.
 
Alt Cunningham believes in the soul and the existence of higher things than reality
Alt as a Cybergoddess has more insight into the nature of reality
Well, the reality is that cyberspace is not a sort of astral plane/empyrean/immaterium. It is a bunch of data on some sort of server, that was made by humans.
And we also have human-run NetWatch Corporation that actually defeated Alt and her armies, focing them behing the Black Barrier and locking them up there until intervention by the Voodoists. And even after that, Alt is clearly depicted as being unable to breach Arasaka Corporation's internal network protection from the outside.
 
Well, the reality is that cyberspace is not a sort of astral plane/empyrean/immaterium. It is a bunch of data on some sort of server, that was made by humans.
And we also have human-run NetWatch Corporation that actually defeated Alt and her armies, focing them behing the Black Barrier and locking them up there until intervention by the Voodoists. And even after that, Alt is clearly depicted as being unable to breach Arasaka Corporation's internal network protection from the outside.

Which is Johnny's argument. However, the AI are so far beyond human thought they might as well be gods.

Netwatch only "won" by driving them to the place that they live and argues that AI want to fight humanity, which they don't. They invented a threat that doesn't exist.
 
However, the AI are so far beyond human thought they might as well be gods.
Most of the AI's were made by humans as per game's lore. Also they ary by no means supernatural beings. They are computer programmings, while incredibly complex and self-aware, still bunch of code.
However, it's than goes down to a point of what defenition of the word "deity" we want to apply in this case. Answers may vary then....
They invented a threat that doesn't exist.
Hmm... and is such threat really non-existent?
If you follow Panam's/Aldecaldo's route during the ending part of the game, Sol is rather..horrified to point out, that once Alt is plugged in to Arasaka Corporation's internal network she does not only disabled security systems, but also murdered civilian employees working in lower levels of Arasaka HQ. Murdered unarmed workers, that were just trying to evacuate the building.
 
Most of the AI's were made by humans as per game's lore. Also they ary by no means supernatural beings. They are computer programmings, while incredibly complex and self-aware, still bunch of code.
However, it's than goes down to a point of what defenition of the word "deity" we want to apply in this case. Answers may vary then....

Except according to Alt, she can in fact destroy and create souls. There's a reason that the Net is studied via supernatural means in Cyberpunk 2020. The same with Gibson who said that Voodoo was the only way to understand cyberspace in Neuromancer. The Net has transformed and become more than the sum of its parts.

Or maybe Alt is just a nutty AI.

Hmm... and is such threat really non-existent?
If you follow Panam's/Aldecaldo's route during the ending part of the game, Sol is rather..horrified to point out, that once Alt is plugged in to Arasaka Corporation's internal network she does not only disabled security systems, but also murdered civilian employees working in lower levels of Arasaka HQ. Murdered unarmed workers, that were just trying to evacuate the building.
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I think that depends on what you think of the secretaries working for Hitler. Which would be Godwin's Law if not for the fact Saburo is an actual Axis soldier.
 
You can find the 2 Monk brothers that we saved from Maelstorm after the Pisces mission, when Judy goes back, look to the left, talk to them they have an interesting interpretation of soul inside the cyberpunk world.
 
Problem with Soulkiller is that it was never flashed out. Like someone said here it’s a badly used Chekhov’s gun, you used it in the act 2 you need to use is in the act 3 for the sake of using. Yet there is no deeper connection to it.

whole game is about survival a biochip, yet at the end in most/all? Endings V is zapped by Soulkiller.

I think that what would be fat better concept would be to have this option available from very beginning, but fighting against it. Like you can have a new life as a endgram in the new host but you chose otherwise.
There we would have a some moral/ethical dilemmas, game/lore is rich with tools to br

and this is of course before the biggest problem of the plot - the fact that no matter with or without Soulkiller is all in vain.

We can now suspect that this will be theme of next act/expansion yet this will feel forced again, just like final of the main game.
 
Except according to Alt, she can in fact destroy and create souls
I suggest, here we again come to the problem of definition. What is soul?
Game itself, AFAIK, suggests that for Alt and AIs it means recorded engramms of human mind. If so - Alt made it clear that she can read engram's code as she would with any other programm or AI. Engrams are basically still pieces of code. That's why they could be deleted or rewritten.
PS: And this gives credibility to Johnny's words about Arasaka rewriting personalities of those trapped in Mikoshi as well as giving some.. well.. new light to Arasaka Coporation's "Preserve your soul" programm.
The Net has transformed and become more than the sum of its parts.
However it is still hosted on servers that are made by humans and humans can still "pull the power plug". With dire repercussion of course, but such possibility still remains viable...
 
Also remember that while V was hit with the soulkiller program if you choose to return to your original body the original conciousness isn’t deleted but an engram is put on the relic to fix all the damage done by Johnny.

that’s why calling V a soulless copy is a little short sighted.
 
Also remember that while V was hit with the soulkiller program if you choose to return to your original body the original conciousness isn’t deleted but an engram is put on the relic to fix all the damage done by Johnny.
Would rather disagree. The very possibility of choice "who gets V's body" tend to suggest V's brain have been purged clean by the Soulkiller programm.
that’s why calling V a soulless copy is a little short sighted
Then again - what do we consider soul for the sake of this argument. If we consider soul to be the same as engram, then if V returns to his/her body it's the same V as been before the relic was introduced to his/her nervous system. If we consider the definition of soul in religious sense... then we don't know actually.
PS: However in religious sense we can absolutely be sure that "Alt" (2077 version, not a living woman she was in 2023) is a soulless abomination and her continuing existence - an affront to God o_O
PPS: Somewhat curious... in Russian version of the game relic is continously called bio-chip (био-чип). Don't know why the change in name actually...
 
Would rather disagree. The very possibility of choice "who gets V's body" tend to suggest V's brain have been purged clean by the Soulkiller programm.

Then again - what do we consider soul for the sake of this argument. If we consider soul to be the same as engram, then if V returns to his/her body it's the same V as been before the relic was introduced to his/her nervous system. If we consider the definition of soul in religious sense... then we don't know actually.
PS: However in religious sense we can absolutely be sure that "Alt" (2077 version, not a living woman she was in 2023) is a soulless abomination and her continuing existence - an affront to God o_O
PPS: Somewhat curious... in Russian version of the game relic is continously called bio-chip (био-чип). Don't know why the change in name actually...
The soulkiller program only kills people because Arasaka doesn’t want to create copies, since Alt made the program though I’m pretty sure she’s able to keep V’s body alive until a decision is made.
 
because Arasaka doesn’t want to create copies, since Alt made the program though I’m pretty sure she’s able to keep V’s body alive until a decision is made
Arasaka actually do want to create copies. "Preserve your soul" programm have corporate and political leaders making themselves "back-up copies" of their personalities.
In case of V Alt actually had to separate V's and Johnny's personalities, mixed together in V's mind. That's why IMHO it actually made necessary to purge V's brain clean while taking an engram of both personalities inside his/her head. To Alt engramms are just pieces of code so they could be separated as any other pieces of code could.
 
I saved monks after all the sidequests, where are they, near H8?

information only can be copied and overwritten, this is how things work in reality
original V's gone it's obvious

but the game uses own logiс and reality and i'm interested to find this info (but it seems it's plothole and cliffhanger)

Definition of the soul I think is shown here (mb somewhere else i don't remember):
- emptiness (hanako's ending)
- V's determination (rogue ending, Vee behaves like Alt, there is a goal and nothing more)
- Judy words about wall between her and female V (rogue ending)

+ we see epilogues (except Johhny) from V eyes so it's probably easy to accept that original consciousness can be transferred, for players nothing changes

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Arasaka actually do want to create copies. "Preserve your soul" programm have corporate and political leaders making themselves "back-up copies" of their personalities.
In case of V Alt actually had to separate V's and Johnny's personalities, mixed together in V's mind. That's why IMHO it actually made necessary to purge V's brain clean while taking an engram of both personalities inside his/her head. To Alt engramms are just pieces of code so they could be separated as any other pieces of code could.
I think that’s where you misunderstand what happens, V’s body stays intact but Alt uses an engram of their mind to use the relic to fix V.

otherwise if V got killed by soulkiller the Relic is defective and couldn’t revive V. Neither could it function without a mind to overwrite, the V/Johnny hybrid.
 
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Bumped into this during my current playthrough... as far as Johnny understands the Soul is saved.


Soulkiller.jpg
 
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I saw it as the same V consciousness, the same V personality with all their memories and experiences returning to their body which was altered by the biochip. For me that's the same V. The same person that would fight tooth and nail to live past those 6 months as the Star and Sun endings clearly hint at. They'll never stop fighting.

Now obviously you can try to define what a soul is and whether V preserves it or not throughout the whole ordeal but to me that's the same V, soul be damned.
 
When you first go to your garage and use the elevator the TV show is actually discussing the relic, I haven't had this repeat. It's with a woman who showcases cybernetics and an actual priest. These two debate what the relic actually is. The woman saying it's immortality, the priest says that it's damnation and just the show of the divide between the rich and the poor - he's right here since only the very rich can actually buy this immortality.

The host steps in saying that the chip is just doing the very same on what the church provides. You give them money, you worship your entire life, you play by their rules and eventually, you might go to 'heaven' with your soul for an afterlife and maybe a rebirth. With the chip, however, the middleman is cut out, you can be reborn again if you slot the chip into a corpse.

It can be argued that the reason Soul Killer is called Soul Killer is that the act of using it is barbaric in regards to most humans understanding - most of them being religious. It kills but also creates life. It can repeatedly have a person live multiple lives without the aid of any god only science. Now you have no fear of what you're doing, because why should it matter? You're not going to hell. You've been taken away from the whole cycle of morality.

We today are people who throw around the meaning of a soul all the time. When someone is evil and without compassion, we call them 'soulless bastards' for example. A soul is just heavily tied to humanity and it seems that it's humanity alone. You don't see many people pondering if other animals have souls. And the only time we tend to on the fly is when we think about animal ghosts, but again, that's a ghost - we never go, oh... animals must have souls, all that often.

If we go back to the basics of what most people tend to think every day terms of 'what is a soul' - it's that you have human qualities. Love, compassion and humanity. Again, it's why when you describe someone as soulless you're saying they're lacking these traits - humanity being the big one.

Having your very being trapped onto a chip, sets you apart from humanity. Why? Again, science here. Love and empathy come from your body being able to work. Endorphins and hormones. You slot your chip out and away from these things you are physically incapable of feeling them anymore. Love isn't some sort of thing that comes from the soul, it's all about science - humans are just romantic and like to think it's the soul. But seriously, love, lust, empathy - hormones. Johnny is only feeling these things now because he's in your body and as a result is getting all the biofeedback - the hormones.

Finally, it brings about the question of how your soul is now owned it is property. It's like slavery but worse. As a black individual and learning about my ancestors, when we were enslaved it was in the body mostly. Slaves did everything they could to keep a part of their souls away from this. You could own the body but you couldn't own their souls, a clear example of this is in the religion of Voodoo, where slaves would continue to worship and adapted it.

Blah blah: V is V as long as V keeps their humanity intact. The fact that V gets their engram put straight back into their body, also keeps their humanity intact and the ability to feel.

Tldr: Humanity is the soul. The soul is your humanity.

Anyway, I rambled long enough.
 
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