Bro, you're asking for facts in something that legit doesn't exist yet. There are no facts here, it's all speculation. The game forces you to think and speculate. A game isn't straight out going to tell you what your soul is. They're not going to touch that with a 100ft pole.
Even in the 2020 PnP game, it's not clear. It's speculation. The only people who know are Alt and Hanako Arasaka in regards to SoulKiller.
Even in the 2020 PnP game, it's not clear. It's speculation. The only people who know are Alt and Hanako Arasaka in regards to SoulKiller.
I can point you in some places then if that's the case.
First part regarding the relic is what you hear when you go into your building's elevator after the situation with Jackie and the scavs. Listen to the recording playing of the woman and the priest on the talk show. But this is about the relic of course, not the Soul-Killer itself. But it goes in depth about the 'soul'
Mike pondsmith, cameo on the chip and some info on soul killer.
They don't really go into much regarding SoulKiller, and how it works. just the chip. But it's straight-up called a 'weapon' here. A lot of information again about the soul and what they're doing with it.
First part regarding the relic is what you hear when you go into your building's elevator after the situation with Jackie and the scavs. Listen to the recording playing of the woman and the priest on the talk show. But this is about the relic of course, not the Soul-Killer itself. But it goes in depth about the 'soul'
Mike pondsmith, cameo on the chip and some info on soul killer.
They don't really go into much regarding SoulKiller, and how it works. just the chip. But it's straight-up called a 'weapon' here. A lot of information again about the soul and what they're doing with it.
The game is full of references to spirituality and humanity losing its connection to the earth (the Zen Master, Misty, the tarot cards and Bakeneko). Given Misty's reaction to V in the Star/The Sun and her final tarot reading (which is always accurate in game), I think the game strongly points to V keeping their original consciousness and/or "soul" if you will. As Jackie says, Misty is always right.
But yes, you're not going to get definitive facts, the game does it on purpose and the Cyberpunk PnP is just as ambiguous. What Johnny says is his opinion, same for Alt, and neither is omniscient. They also say conflicting things all the time. Johnny doesn't seem to believe in a soul, yet he tells V their soul will survive. He also thinks he's the "authentic" Johnny ("To me I am always that, me"). Alt says Soulkiller earned its name, yet tells V she will return their consciousness to V's body in Mikoshi. She's also an AI, her experience is biased because of it, just as humans are biased for being humans.
I'm not even sure than engrams "lose" their consciousness by default or that consciousness itself is copied, poor Alt was disconnected abruptly from the chair and left to roam cyberspace for 50 years. Is it a gradual disconnect from reality? Are you ever completely data? Is Delamain not conscious, as an AI interacting with the world? We know so little about consciousness as it is.
Soulkiller digitizes people's memories and psyche, that's just the underlying data. Consciousness as we currently understand it is a phenomenon though, a state or activity ("sentience or awareness of internal or external existence"). Does transforming the raw data make any difference? As humans, we already go through changes all the time. After a traumatic brain injury, are you not still you? After brain cancer, PTSD induced memory loss, or clinical death during surgery?
But yes, you're not going to get definitive facts, the game does it on purpose and the Cyberpunk PnP is just as ambiguous. What Johnny says is his opinion, same for Alt, and neither is omniscient. They also say conflicting things all the time. Johnny doesn't seem to believe in a soul, yet he tells V their soul will survive. He also thinks he's the "authentic" Johnny ("To me I am always that, me"). Alt says Soulkiller earned its name, yet tells V she will return their consciousness to V's body in Mikoshi. She's also an AI, her experience is biased because of it, just as humans are biased for being humans.
I'm not even sure than engrams "lose" their consciousness by default or that consciousness itself is copied, poor Alt was disconnected abruptly from the chair and left to roam cyberspace for 50 years. Is it a gradual disconnect from reality? Are you ever completely data? Is Delamain not conscious, as an AI interacting with the world? We know so little about consciousness as it is.
Soulkiller digitizes people's memories and psyche, that's just the underlying data. Consciousness as we currently understand it is a phenomenon though, a state or activity ("sentience or awareness of internal or external existence"). Does transforming the raw data make any difference? As humans, we already go through changes all the time. After a traumatic brain injury, are you not still you? After brain cancer, PTSD induced memory loss, or clinical death during surgery?
Honestly it doesn’t make sense, if V gets fried by soulkiller there shouldn’t have been a way to come back since the biochip is busted...
V is not fried though, it seems like the engram is transferred to the brain itself. V's brain -> (digitalization) engram -> ("decoding" or something) back to V's brain.
Three possibilities, depending on how the Soulkiller works in practice;
1) Soulkiller works like copy-paste works in computers, in which case the non-cloning theorem kicks in and the subsequent copy is different from the original in sublte ways and thus a different person. This has two interpertation itself, one very dark;
a) Soulkiller does not validate the copy and accepts the difference between the copy and the original.
b) Soulkiller validates the copy and effectively kills numerous previous copies until sufficient parity with the original is achieved.
2) The Soulkiller reroutes the brain into a digital emulation of the brain, slowly shutting off the parts of the brain it has already emulated, thus transferring the conciousness of the person from 'ganic to silicon substrate. If the person is cut off from their body and allowed to experience the net, this causes major changes in personality in the long term. Mikoshi virch can stave off this change indefinitely.
3) The Soulkiller transfers the conciousness of the person to silicon substrate and this experience changes the person in profound ways. The V downloaded back into his body is not the same person that connected to Mikoshi.
The problem as far as we know soulkiller doesn’t work that way.
It copies it’s victim, Fries their brain then stores the conciousness in an engram.
My impression was either 2 or 3, though I'm not sure I would consider V not the same person in 3. Changed, yes, but still the same V.
That's why I think V's case is unique, at least compared to Johnny, Alt and all the netrunners killed by Soulkiller in cyberspace (like T-Bug). V is directly hooked to Mikoshi, and if Johnny returns to V's body he doesn't have any issues or reduced lifespan, the brain itself is fine.
The point about the soul ceasing to exist is this.
Imagine if you - in real life - had a terminal illness. And your mind and all your memories etc. were copied over to a clone.
It still wouldn't save you. Because YOU would still die. And your clone will be "experienced" from the point of view of someone else. Which just happens to be the same person as you. But you would still be dead.
Soulkiller DOES NOT save your life. You die - and a COPY of you lives on. It's why the soulkiller/engram transfer ending options for V are all equally pointless as V living 6 months and dying. There is literally NO DIFFERENCE between these. Because either way, the real V dies. The engram of you being uploaded to a new body, is not you. But a copy of you - someone else - inheriting V's memories.
That's often presented as facts in the forums, but it's not explicitly stated in the game at all. It's one of many possible interpretations of how Soulkiller works, one that relies on consciousness being copied like raw data, or simply emerging as a separate "entity" from copied data. But consciousness is a state, and an engram produced by Soulkiller 2.0 isn't just a collection of memories.
ask you to not place here opinions i couldn't delete your messages
if smb interested in this plothole as me pls post "facts" from game (first post is example) or at least logical conclusions based on game or lore information from books
I think that original V died (it's logical in real world) but want to turn it in another direction because I think next DLC will be Crystal Palace
here is some devs arts where you can find detailed orbital station
if smb interested in this plothole as me pls post "facts" from game (first post is example) or at least logical conclusions based on game or lore information from books
I think that original V died (it's logical in real world) but want to turn it in another direction because I think next DLC will be Crystal Palace
here is some devs arts where you can find detailed orbital station
Because it is barbaric if used on unwilling victim.
You're going to Mikoshi. Arasaka's "soul prison", to be left at Saburo's/Yorinobu's mercy. Of which Saburo actually have none towards any other than members of his family.
And who will get to decide who will get a new life and who don't? Saburo Arasaka? President Myers of the New United States of America? Unnamed chairman of the People's Republic of China incumbent as of 2077?
It helps to realize Saburo is basically the settings equivalent to Sauron.
He's not just a bad corporate executive.
He is a Dark Lord ruling a massive kingdom of evil.
He's not just a bad corporate executive.
He is a Dark Lord ruling a massive kingdom of evil.
This is not the intended vision CDPR has of the use of soulkiller during the ending.
Its comparable to teleportation in Star Trek, yes technically you’re being dismantled, digitized then rebuilt on the other side but we don’t consider the person popping out on the other side Kirk2, It’s still just Kirk.
I almost convinced myself that in the final we are playing for the original V, because the developers didn't want to actually erase the original V + the epilogues are shown in the first person
but i still couldn't ignore the fact that saburo made his engram while he was alive
so this is clear evidence of coping nature of soulkiller not transfering
+ mike pondsmith words
by the way, I remember that Arasaka said that they have mikoshi at all space stations
am I confusing something or is it really so?
but i still couldn't ignore the fact that saburo made his engram while he was alive
so this is clear evidence of coping nature of soulkiller not transfering
+ mike pondsmith words
by the way, I remember that Arasaka said that they have mikoshi at all space stations
am I confusing something or is it really so?
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That's right, Mikoshi's servers are in orbital stations, the Arasaka tower just has a direct access point. Hanako mentions it during Nocturne.
The existence of multiple engrams (or an engram alongside the corresponding organic person) is compatible with post Soulkiller V being the "original" V, if the interpretation that consciousness is linked to an organic body (original or not) is correct. If the body needs to be the original one, V is the same V, but Saburo in Yorinobu's body isn't the original Saburo. If any physical body is fine, Saburo is truly immortal. This would complicate things if multiple engrams could be copied to multiple bodies (Independent entities? Shared consciousness? One soul multiple bodies, if you want to go there?).
EDIT: Johnny only fully awakens when the biochip is activated, but he realized that time was passing while in cyberspace, so he was self aware to a degree. I still don't buy that engrams in cyberspace are not conscious, at least when there is no corresponding organic body anymore like in Johnny's case.
Lizzy Wizzy's quest is also related to this issue, her manager wants to create a "backup" of her and edit out undesirable traits.
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I know I am digging this up, but I really didnt want to start a new one.
Got a question for everyone. can either of the version of soulkiller create an engram from a already dead person.
both of Saburo araska's children didnt know he had been copied till later in the story. it seemed not very many people knew he had been copied, even the board members didnt know. Now did he have a new and better way to create a construct?
during the heist you see the trama team come in, but will araska security try and stop them, because the building is on lockdown? Yorinobu would not want his father copied, mostly because well he is a eye witness to his own murder. So one would think that he would not allow them to get him if it were possible to copy a already dead person.
Got a question for everyone. can either of the version of soulkiller create an engram from a already dead person.
both of Saburo araska's children didnt know he had been copied till later in the story. it seemed not very many people knew he had been copied, even the board members didnt know. Now did he have a new and better way to create a construct?
during the heist you see the trama team come in, but will araska security try and stop them, because the building is on lockdown? Yorinobu would not want his father copied, mostly because well he is a eye witness to his own murder. So one would think that he would not allow them to get him if it were possible to copy a already dead person.
Game is quite contradictort on Soulkiller for example
Alt clearly states Soulkiller does exactly what name suggest and then person copied is never the same yet later on she ask you to switch bodies with Johnny and treating him as literal human being. The moment you get hit by Soulkiller you become no more then AI, body is just vessel
Alt clearly states Soulkiller does exactly what name suggest and then person copied is never the same yet later on she ask you to switch bodies with Johnny and treating him as literal human being. The moment you get hit by Soulkiller you become no more then AI, body is just vessel