[SPOILERS] Soulkiller technology

[TintelFruit]

Game is quite contradictort on Soulkiller for example
Alt clearly states Soulkiller does exactly what name suggest and then person copied is never the same yet later on she ask you to switch bodies with Johnny and treating him as literal human being. The moment you get hit by Soulkiller you become no more then AI, body is just vessel

Alt is a hypocrite, she's deathly afraid of losing her humanity ("soul") and that's why she treats Johnny with kid gloves, because he's one of the few things remaining of her old life. So when she states that soulkiller kills "souls" she's just projecting her own fear of losing her humanity.

 

[enkee23]

Got a question for everyone. can either of the version of soulkiller create an engram from a already dead person.

with limited memories
if you decided to send jackie to vik, arasaka steals him and makes his engram with whom you can talk in hanako ending

 

[Kamarov112]

Alt is a hypocrite, she's deathly afraid of losing her humanity ("soul")

Well... if you try to go along with Johnny's/Rogue's way in the game's finale... it seems that not so much, actually.

Spoiler: Warning, spoilers ahead!

1. If you communicate with Alt as Johnny (not as V), she would say that she is actually NOT Alt Cummingham (living woman that once was in romantic relationship with Johnny), or at least not anymore. Johnny (and V by extension AFAIK) see her as Alt because that's what Johnny want to see. Each human views "deep cyberspace" differentely (and AIs view it completely different from humans).
2. From an AI point of view very concept of personality is different from that of human perspective. Two or several AIs could merge in a single consciousness and for all parties that would actually be a "win-win scenario" not death. AIs, at least rather well developed, could also create other AIs at a whim.
It is very well demonstrated in Delamaine's final quest. If "original" Delamain merges with his subpersonalities, he says to feel "better than anytime ever" and clearly becomes more than he was before and then he leaves to explore the universe, not before creating Delamaine Jr. to run Night City taxi service.
For human beings that's exactly what is absolutely not possible. It is either V or Johnny who remains in V brain. The other one dies or taken away by Soulkiller technology. It is not possible for V to merge with Johnny Silverhand into a single entity and live on.
3. Alt actually voices her intention to merge with engramms stored in Kiroshi, once she is plugged in. With this seem to her as beneficial for all parties involved. A thing, that is perfectly normal for an AI, but not for a human being.
So, my working theory is that since Alt Cummingham disembodied engramm got beyond the Blackwall after the events of 2023, she has since merged with one or several AIs dwelling there. That's how we get 2077s Alt - a whole new entity actually.

 

[TintelFruit]

Well... if you try to go along with Johnny's/Rogue's way in the game's finale... it seems that not so much, actually.

Spoiler: Warning, spoilers ahead!

1. If you communicate with Alt as Johnny (not as V), she would say that she is actually NOT Alt Cummingham (living woman that once was in romantic relationship with Johnny), or at least not anymore. Johnny (and V by extension AFAIK) see her as Alt because that's what Johnny want to see. Each human views "deep cyberspace" differentely (and AIs view it completely different from humans).
2. From an AI point of view very concept of personality is different from that of human perspective. Two or several AIs could merge in a single consciousness and for all parties that would actually be a "win-win scenario" not death. AIs, at least rather well developed, could also create other AIs at a whim.
It is very well demonstrated in Delamaine's final quest. If "original" Delamain merges with his subpersonalities, he says to feel "better than anytime ever" and clearly becomes more than he was before and then he leaves to explore the universe, not before creating Delamaine Jr. to run Night City taxi service.
For human beings that's exactly what is absolutely not possible. It is either V or Johnny who remains in V brain. The other one dies or taken away by Soulkiller technology. It is not possible for V to merge with Johnny Silverhand into a single entity and live on.
3. Alt actually voices her intention to merge with engramms stored in Kiroshi, once she is plugged in. With this seem to her as beneficial for all parties involved. A thing, that is perfectly normal for an AI, but not for a human being.
So, my working theory is that since Alt Cummingham disembodied engramm got beyond the Blackwall after the events of 2023, she has since merged with one or several AIs dwelling there. That's how we get 2077s Alt - a whole new entity actually.

She still shows up when Johnny is used as bait, Alt’s imperfect engram is still at the heart of the Alt AI, that’s why she warns V about losing their “soul” their humanity because she lost most of it long ago.

It’s indeed clear though she is more then just Alt’s engram, but that engram is still at the heart of the AI.

 

[enkee23]

i found the answer in original cp book
original V is alive according to the universe



also you can find tarot card "judgement" before connecting to mikoshi
Judgement is the card of renewal. The angel blowing into the horn heralds resurrection and liberation. This card foretells an important change that will result in healing or fulfillment. It is also a symbol of self-worth.

 

[Kamarov112]

She still shows up when Johnny is used as bait, Alt’s imperfect engram is still at the heart of the Alt AI, that’s why she warns V about losing their “soul” their humanity because she lost most of it long ago.

Yet Alt is very much willing to merge engramms stored in Mikoshi with herself, and consideres this a good thing for all parties involved. Hmm....
Offtopic: Also worth noting. Since "Alt" got beyond Blackwall she became actually a dire threat to Mankind's well-being and safety. She breached Orbital Air's "ice" and forced communications satellite's de-orbiting. And cosidering how even T-Bug stated that Militech's encryptions are rather weak (by breaching them) it could mean that New United States' governmental and military cyber-infrastructure and communication channels could be compromised...

 

[pndrad]

The Soulkiller only copies information like memories and personality. What it doesn't copy is consciousness, the part that makes a person self aware. As V was still connected to his body in Mikoshi he was still self aware, while Jackie wasn't. Silverhand isn't the real Silverhand, but an A.I. with the originals memories.

 

[naddaya]

The Soulkiller only copies information like memories and personality. What it doesn't copy is consciousness, the part that makes a person self aware. As V was still connected to his body in Mikoshi he was still self aware, while Jackie wasn't. Silverhand isn't the real Silverhand, but an A.I. with the originals memories.

Alt tells V the exact opposite in Mikoshi: "I will return your consciousness to your body". The problem with Jackie was that he was already dead when the engram was created.

 

[pndrad]

Alt tells V the exact opposite in Mikoshi: "I will return your consciousness to your body". The problem with Jackie was that he was already dead when the engram was created.

Do the devil ending. When you interact with Saburo, V will notice he is just data not a real person. That "I think therefore I am" factor doesn't get copied by Soulkiller. All engrams are like that. Johnny was enhanced with an artificial personality, and V still connected to his body so they could think for themselves.

 

[naddaya]

Do the devil ending. When you interact with Saburo, V will notice he is just data not a real person. That "I think therefore I am" factor doesn't get copied by Soulkiller. All engrams are like that. Johnny was enhanced with an artificial personality, and V still connected to his body so they could think for themselves.

That's a dialogue option among many. Soulkiller 2.0 engrams are designed to maintain the person's consciousness, whether the lack of an organic body changes them enough to no longer be considered the same person after some time or imply the loss of a soul in the religious sense is left to interpretation.

 

[TintelFruit]

Do the devil ending. When you interact with Saburo, V will notice he is just data not a real person. That "I think therefore I am" factor doesn't get copied by Soulkiller. All engrams are like that. Johnny was enhanced with an artificial personality, and V still connected to his body so they could think for themselves.

We don't know if this Engram was made before or after Saburo was killed though, or which version of soulkiller was used.

 

[Raptorousrex]

Considering that Soulkiller was made by Alt it would be far superior than Arasakas version. I think also there is a factor also if soulkiller is used on living or dead person and how long construct has been without body!

 

[enkee23]

Memories and personality are consciousness even in real world so it seems you contradict yourself
Everyone who was soulkilled by the latest alt version is original without humanity feelings what i think is meant as soul

 

[naddaya]

Memories and personality are consciousness even in real world so it seems you contradict yourself
Everyone who was soulkilled by the latest alt version is original without humanity feelings what i think is meant as soul

Consciousness seems more akin to a phenomenon/process based on the memories and personality that the raw data itself, still not clear how it works both ingame and in the real world. But yeah, 2.0 engrams are generally treated as the original person.

 

[Witzzard]

Memories and personality are consciousness even in real world so it seems you contradict yourself
Everyone who was soulkilled by the latest alt version is original without humanity feelings what i think is meant as soul

So how do you think works personality without human emotions?
The closest thing on a ingame fact is Alt explaining to you how V will loose their soul when she uses Soulkiller on V. And then describes how it will not even be an actual copy of Vs engram, as she will actually edit the version Soulkiller will produce, as Johnny and V will be mixed up in that version. So procedure - Soulkiller V (killing her), getting an engram, editing said engram, uploading said engram in the "dead" body.

Yes there's a lot open to interpretation on what Soul means. On what death means there.

 

[Raptorousrex]

So how do you think works personality without human emotions?
The closest thing on a ingame fact is Alt explaining to you how V will loose their soul when she uses Soulkiller on V. And then describes how it will not even be an actual copy of Vs engram, as she will actually edit the version Soulkiller will produce, as Johnny and V will be mixed up in that version. So procedure - Soulkiller V (killing her), getting an engram, editing said engram, uploading said engram in the "dead" body.

Yes there's a lot open to interpretation on what Soul means. On what death means there.

Soulkiller process does not kill the body itself its just sort of state that has no brain activity and eventually dies from lack of those but death of body is not instant!

 

[Witzzard]

Soulkiller process does not kill the body itself its just sort of state that has no brain activity and eventually dies from lack of those but death of body is not instant!

The game spells it out as "Flatline" - flatline as far as i understand is usage isn't used in connection towards brain activity normally, but rather heart beats.
-edit-
So yeah possibly true enough.

 

[pndrad]

Memories and personality are consciousness even in real world so it seems you contradict yourself
Everyone who was soulkilled by the latest alt version is original without humanity feelings what i think is meant as soul

Memories and personality aren't consciousness, being able to have thoughts, feelings, and being self aware is consciousness. Memories and personality are a by product of consciousness.

 

[enkee23]

So how do you think works personality without human emotions?
The closest thing on a ingame fact is Alt explaining to you how V will loose their soul when she uses Soulkiller on V. And then describes how it will not even be an actual copy of Vs engram, as she will actually edit the version Soulkiller will produce, as Johnny and V will be mixed up in that version. So procedure - Soulkiller V (killing her), getting an engram, editing said engram, uploading said engram in the "dead" body.

Yes there's a lot open to interpretation on what Soul means. On what death means there.

it doesn't matter
We discuss game universe and I posted answer that SK V1 saves personalities, when SK V2 additionally saves living engrams
My comparing with RL is just exaggeration for clarity

Memories and personality aren't consciousness, being able to have thoughts, feelings, and being self aware is consciousness. Memories and personality are a by product of consciousness.

Alt directly said that she will use soulkiller to record consciousness and engram
Soulkiller also records personalities

 

[Witzzard]

it doesn't matter
We discuss game universe and I posted answer that SK V1 saves personalities, when SK V2 additionally saves living engrams
My comparing with RL is just exaggeration for clarity

Okay let's see what i saw ingame:

- Arasaka Ads: chip saves the soul and yourself. (Still you find emails - e.g. on the Laptop you find with Hanako near one end that engrams are a failing and not the complete thing).
- In the Hotel room scene, Hellman: "The Biochip is what's unique, not Silverhands engram... The previous version of the chip was only used to to communicate with pre-saved engrams." - V: "And it was rare as fuck and cost a fortune, yeah." - Hellman: "This ones rarer. Meant to install and activate the engram in a new body."
- With Alt at the Voodoo Boys: - V: "So... you'll save my life but flatline me along the way?" - Alt: "Your consciousness, neural engrams, will be recorded as data. The rest will cease to exist." - V: "The rest?" - Alt: "The soul. I did not grant the program its name, but Soulkiller does precisely what it promises to do." - Johnny: "Christ i don't want listen to this bullshit. V just hops back into her body, right? Nothin' changes." - Alt: "Everything changes. You know this well."
- Engram Jackie - Not the real deal either, right?
- Johnny Silverhand - Jumps from him being him and him not being him, as far as i remember Johnny.

Anything i'm missing yet, that's actually saying that Soulkiller 2.0 is different from what Alt tells us? Or Arasakas internal emails?