[SPOILERS] Soulkiller technology

[TintelFruit]

Okay let's see what i saw ingame:

- Arasaka Ads: chip saves the soul and yourself. (Still you find emails - e.g. on the Laptop you find with Hanako near one end that engrams are a failing and not the complete thing).
- In the Hotel room scene, Hellman: "The Biochip is what's unique, not Silverhands engram... The previous version of the chip was only used to to communicate with pre-saved engrams." - V: "And it was rare as fuck and cost a fortune, yeah." - Hellman: "This ones rarer. Meant to install and activate the engram in a new body."
- With Alt at the Voodoo Boys: - V: "So... you'll save my life but flatline me along the way?" - Alt: "Your consciousness, neural engrams, will be recorded as data. The rest will cease to exist." - V: "The rest?" - Alt: "The soul. I did not grant the program its name, but Soulkiller does precisely what it promises to do." - Johnny: "Christ i don't want listen to this bullshit. V just hops back into her body, right? Nothin' changes." - Alt: "Everything changes. You know this well."
- Engram Jackie - Not the real deal either, right?
- Johnny Silverhand - Jumps from him being him and him not being him, as far as i remember Johnny.

Anything i'm missing yet, that's actually saying that Soulkiller 2.0 is different from what Alt tells us? Or Arasakas internal emails?

As Alt says herself, She didn't name soulkiller, that the "soul" dies is her interpretation because it happened to her (and she was disconnected too early by Johnny).

Arasaka isn't the creator of soulkiller, Alt is so she'd know how to handle the engrams the best, she's so good in fact she can edit them in real time then plop them back into a body. She also originally designed it to more easily move around the net, it was never meant to kill netrunners, That's Arasaka's addition.

Jackies engram was made after his death, it is incomplete.

Johnny is still Johnny, even comes with being an "unreliable narrator" like most real human beings.

Like Hellman says, the relics ability to overwrite people is bleeding edge, meaning the engrams are already fully conscious and just need a biological body to function properly.

 

[enkee23]

Anything i'm missing yet, that's actually saying that Soulkiller 2.0 is different from what Alt tells us? Or Arasakas internal emails?

first meeting with Alt this is the starting point of discussion in this thread
but we don't have direct answer in game so only way to use universe lore

 

[Oddballe8]

Hmm... interesting thought experiment here...

Say that Johnny's engram was downloaded into a completely cybernetic body...

Would he really be Johnny Silverhand then? Would he be a real person? Would he have a soul?

It poses some interesting thoughts.

 

[Witzzard]

As Alt says herself, She didn't name soulkiller, that the "soul" dies is her interpretation because it happened to her (and she was disconnected too early by Johnny).

I was taking the stance of "only what's ingame" in my argument, as i was asked to do so... - following that i'd have to answer with:
"Show me where's that written.".
But then again, she open tells you that you'll loose part of yourself, even if you're put back into that body. And we've no more credible voice on that, than Alt. Well besides Johnny who like 70% of the time (yeah made up number i know, i'dhave to actually search for videos of that and stuff) - goes "Does it matter?" and swings one way or the other in the further 30% right?

Arasaka isn't the creator of soulkiller, Alt is so she'd know how to handle the engrams the best, she's so good in fact she can edit them in real time then plop them back into a body. She also originally designed it to more easily move around the net, it was never meant to kill netrunners, That's Arasaka's addition.

Yes and she tells you it's not what you describe as an actual Copy.
Besides Arasaka making use of Soulkiller, and alt wanting to use the version they actually use with Mikoshi.
After which usage Alt openly tells you, that her dis-entangling Johnny and V as engrams wasn't a 100% thing - because V wasn't fully there any longer - best case she was able to make a 99.9% V of the beginning, worst case is a "Monkey Christ" like Restoration of the original - though this isn't really adressing the life thing, i'd have to concede. But it's adressing how this copy isn't a 100% thing and it's still a copy, not the original.

Jackies engram was made after his death, it is incomplete.#

Which is what Alt tells you about Vs engram .... as Soulkiller isn't able to capture everything. Be it the neuro-chemistry, or whatever we want to interpret into it.

Johnny is still Johnny, even comes with being an "unreliable narrator" like most real human beings.

Like Hellman says, the relics ability to overwrite people is bleeding edge, meaning the engrams are already fully conscious and just need a biological body to function properly.

We never discussed if a copy of a consciousness can be seen as a conciousness. But if it's a copy or not.
And like many others you try to use an external view onto that. The closest prabel to that would be the view that if i snap my fingers and get a carbon copy of you, send the carbon copy back to your loved ones, then kill you, you will still exist - as this carbon copy will be judged as being you by your loved ones. While your internal view, will likely (not proofable, right?) end aprubtly the moment i'd end you. Whereas the internal view of your clone comes abruptly into existance, without truly realizing it not having existed a moment ago.

 

[Raptorousrex]

Well, V being still connected into Mikoshi when transfer happens, so its fairly certain that Alt can get most of it its just sort of Download/Upload compared to what chip can store?

 

[TintelFruit]

I was taking the stance of "only what's ingame" in my argument, as i was asked to do so... - following that i'd have to answer with:
"Show me where's that written.".
But then again, she open tells you that you'll loose part of yourself, even if you're put back into that body. And we've no more credible voice on that, than Alt. Well besides Johnny who like 70% of the time (yeah made up number i know, i'dhave to actually search for videos of that and stuff) - goes "Does it matter?" and swings one way or the other in the further 30% right?



Yes and she tells you it's not what you describe as an actual Copy.
Besides Arasaka making use of Soulkiller, and alt wanting to use the version they actually use with Mikoshi.
After which usage Alt openly tells you, that her entangling Johnny and V as engrams wasn't a 100% thing - because V wasn't fully there any longer - best case she was able to make a 99.9% V of the beginning, worst case is a "Monkey Christ" like Restoration of the original - though this isn't really adressing the life thing, i'd have to concede. But it's adressing how this copy isn't a 100% thing and it's still a copy, not the original.



Which is what Alt tells you about Vs engram .... as Soulkiller isn't able to capture everything. Be it the neuro-chemistry, or whatever we want to interpret into it.



We never discussed if a copy of a consciousness can be seen as a conciousness. But if it's a copy or not.
And like many others you try to use an external view onto that. The closest prabel to that would be the view that if i snap my fingers and get a carbon copy of you, send the carbon copy back to your loved ones, then kill you, you will still exist - as this carbon copy will be judged as being you by your loved ones. While your internal view, will likely (not proofable, right?) end aprubtly the moment i'd end you. Whereas the internal view of your clone comes abruptly into existance, without truly realizing it not having existed a moment ago.

Nowhere is this stuff about "Neuro-chemistry" "written down" neither is it relevant to V since they we're returned to their old body.

anyways, the way you're arguing is entirely moot since V started to change the moment they died in the No-tell Motel so that would mean the original V died during act 1, not act 3.

Alt lost her humanity when she was disconnected from soulkiller and roamed the net for 50 years, this is what she warns V about, her personal experience.
She also did her best to separate V and Johnny but wasn't able to completely restore V to their pre relic self, but it's the best she could do.

 

[Witzzard]

No where is this stuff about "Neuro-chemistry" "written down" neither is it relevant to V since they we're returned to their old body.

But the way you're arguing is entirely moot since V started to change the moment they died in the No-tell Motel so that would mean the original V died during act 1, not act 3.

Which i directly adressed.
But it's not moot as it renders the whole "the original is put back" void - no... she puts back an edited copy. And not into the actual brain from which all came, but into the Relic chip.

-edit
Not a 100% sure on being put through the chip.

 

[TintelFruit]

Which i directly adressed.
But it's not moot as it renders the whole "the original is put back" void - no... she puts back an edited copy. And not into the actual brain from which all came, but into the Relic chip.

-edit
Not a 100% sure on being put through the chip.

You're not put into the chip, you're uploaded directly back into your body.

So yeah it is moot, V died inside the no-tell motel.

 

[Raptorousrex]

You're not put into the chip, you're uploaded directly back into your body.

So yeah it is moot, V died inside the no-tell motel.

Well, yes Part of original V was replaced by Johnny mainly the missing part damage caused by bullet! (Edit. V even thanks Johnny for saving His/Her life)

 

[Witzzard]

You're not put into the chip, you're uploaded directly back into your body.

So yeah it is moot, V died inside the no-tell motel.

Yes it's quite possible that she died inside the no-tell motel. Though that's a discussion besides Soulkiller, as at this point Soulkiller wasn't employed. But rather the nanorobots in the Relic that supposedly restructure the brain.

 

[Motsie]

You're not put into the chip, you're uploaded directly back into your body.

So yeah it is moot, V died inside the no-tell motel.

Unrelated to soulkiller but for personal curisoity - how long was V dead for after getting shot by Dex? The gun dealer mentions not seeing V for 2-3 weeks but V could have spent that time in Viktor's clinic getting healed up.

 

[nadsh]

Unrelated to soulkiller but for personal curisoity - how long was V dead for after getting shot by Dex? The gun dealer mentions not seeing V for 2-3 weeks but V could have spent that time in Viktor's clinic getting healed up.

I think the relic kicked in immediately and resurrected V, you see the reboot screen right after being shot

EDIT: If V stayed dead longer than that, the relic would have had way bigger problems than fixing the bullet damage

 

[enkee23]

I think the relic kicked in immediately and resurrected V, you see the reboot screen right after being shot

no, was killed in motel, waked up at landfill

please, do not offtop, no-tell motel is not soulkiller

 

[TintelFruit]

no, was killed in motel, waked up at landfill

please, do not offtop, no-tell motel is not soulkiller

But it could be argued you lose your soul the moment you die in the No-tell motel, making it relevant.

 

[enkee23]

But it could be argued you lose your soul the moment you die in the No-tell motel, making it relevant.

in this case the thread (and the game) is pointless

 

[TintelFruit]

in this case the thread (and the game) is pointless

 

[enkee23]

so if we summarize all stuff (game + lore) >>> we get Shroedinger`s V

V in RL: original died 1st time in motel, then new engram died in mikoshi, 2nd engram died in a 6 months

V in CP2077:
- First version of SK records personalities (CP2020, wiki: sets of behaviors, cognitions, and emotional patterns);
- Alt can record consciousness (neural engrams) with SK (first meeting with Alt in the game);
- Alt can transfer living engrams from body to net which means immortality (CP2020);
- Alt informs that V will live as before if decides to return to body (sun/star ending);
- Before connecting to Mikoshi V finds tarot card that will result in healing or fulfillment (CP2077);
- JS says that SK packs away (transfers) your psyche, mind and soul (CP2077).

Contradiction to alive V:
- SK copies personality engram (CP2077, Mike's podcast in the game);
- Saburo Arasaka with two simultaneous consciousnesses (CP2077, CP2020);

 

[stndn]

Interesting tidbit from Misty. If you ask her about putting a bullet in your head she'll say "you'll kill two souls".

 

[Witzzard]

so if we summarize all stuff (game + lore) >>> we get Shroedinger`s V

V in RL: original died 1st time in motel, then new engram died in mikoshi, 2nd engram died in a 6 months

V in CP2077:
- First version of SK records personalities (CP2020, wiki: sets of behaviors, cognitions, and emotional patterns);
- Alt can record consciousness (neural engrams) with SK (first meeting with Alt in the game);
- Alt can transfer living engrams from body to net which means immortality (CP2020);
- Alt informs that V will live as before if decides to return to body (sun/star ending);
- Before connecting to Mikoshi V finds tarot card that will result in healing or fulfillment (CP2077);
- JS says that SK packs away (transfers) your psyche, mind and soul (CP2077).

Contradiction to alive V:
- SK copies personality engram (CP2077, Mike's podcast in the game);
- Saburo Arasaka with two simultaneous consciousnesses (CP2077, CP2020);

As note to the Alt can record engrams - that's an actual point in regards to the copy existing while the original keeps existing. Meaning it difers from transfering and is actually copying. - It's on the same not as your Saburo note.

Which is why i get the feeling that CP2077 is somewhat of a retcon.
Though if you read up Soulkiller in the Cyberpunk wiki - even that wiki is speaking out against the immortality and "transfer instead of copy" idea of the CP2020 sourebook somewhat. -edit- So either a bad editor; or also some retcon in CP Red, given that gets mostly quoted?-/edit-

What's interesting to note, imo, is how unclear the actual Relic chip gets when you take the transfer idea from CP2020.
-> Why use a Relic 1.0, which isn't overwriting things, but allowing communication with someone, when you don't need such a thing, as you easily already should be able to communicate with an engram?
-> Why even have a Relic 2.0, when you can easily write engrams into the brain directly? ; Logically that wouldn't be able and the actual DNA problem (or some such) of. But then again, as some Soulkiller descriptions (going from the CP wiki) describe the copy process as frying the actual brain of it's victims - therefore likely destroying the original patterns - how was it supposed to work beforehand?

So. Again it looks to me, as if it worked differently originally and CP2077 writing changed it or something.

 

[Motsie]

so if we summarize all stuff (game + lore) >>> we get Shroedinger`s V

V in RL: original died 1st time in motel, then new engram died in mikoshi, 2nd engram died in a 6 months

V in CP2077:
- First version of SK records personalities (CP2020, wiki: sets of behaviors, cognitions, and emotional patterns);
- Alt can record consciousness (neural engrams) with SK (first meeting with Alt in the game);
- Alt can transfer living engrams from body to net which means immortality (CP2020);
- Alt informs that V will live as before if decides to return to body (sun/star ending);
- Before connecting to Mikoshi V finds tarot card that will result in healing or fulfillment (CP2077);
- JS says that SK packs away (transfers) your psyche, mind and soul (CP2077).

Contradiction to alive V:
- SK copies personality engram (CP2077, Mike's podcast in the game);
- Saburo Arasaka with two simultaneous consciousnesses (CP2077, CP2020);

Adding to this, Cyberpunk RED only considered Alt as being officially dead when Johnny pulled the plug and severed the connection to her body. There's some implication here that Soulkiller isn't really reaping souls until you disconnect completely and destroy the remains.