[Spoilers] Very few of the quests have satisfying resolutions

[Balmung79]

I feel like the game assumes that most player's only motivation for helping Judy out is... to get in her pants, really. Almost like it doesn't actually expect anyone to be invested in the fate of Clouds itself. It just makes the entire quest feel somewhat superficial.

And yes, it hadn't really dawned on me until you pointed it out, but Judy's response to it all is really unhealthy. She just decides to give up and ditch NC after the first setback. In the end, neither she or V actually care all that much about Clouds, they just care about each other. I guess that's sweet, if only Tom didn't have to get killed to make them realize it.

If I remember correctly Judy had more setbacks than just the one with the Cloud coup. Her failed relationship with Maiko, her issues with Evelyn and Evelyns death on top, problems with her boss at Lizzy's, her job in general, feeling lonely in NC, ...

 

[CS554]

I feel like the game assumes that most player's only motivation for helping Judy out is... to get in her pants, really. Almost like it doesn't actually expect anyone to be invested in the fate of Clouds itself. It just makes the entire quest feel somewhat superficial.

And yes, it hadn't really dawned on me until you pointed it out, but Judy's response to it all is really unhealthy. She just decides to give up and ditch NC after the first setback. In the end, neither she or V actually care all that much about Clouds, they just care about each other. I guess that's sweet, if only Tom didn't have to get killed to make them realize it.

I played male V and didn't had any romantic plans for Judy to begin with.

It's NPC agency. She is not alright after what happened earlier. Game doesn't give player a pop up saying so, instead it shows it through its own media. Player like it or not, but I really appreciate writing like this for not taking NPC agency away.

I'm not talking about gigs, for regular merc jobs this is fine. It's very restricting in the main quest and side quests though, considering that the main quest isn't that long.

Branching content doesn't have to be perfectly balanced, but there aren't enough LIs and major quest givers to make losing an entire quest chain for a minor decision satisfying. Mostly thinking about:
- Panam's quest chain (ratting her out to Saul just gives you a lousy car and locks you out of the nomad ending, no support from Saul or Biotechnica leads)
- Judy's quest chain outside of the Maiko choice (just refusing to go diving locks you out of the romance)
- Sinnerman like OP mentioned
- River's quest (you either tell him to forget revenge or he dies and you miss his last quest)
- After the rooftop choice, all the endings are incredibly railroaded

The quests with multiple branches that I can remember are just:
- The Pickup in Act 1 (most complex quest in the whole game)
- Delamain's final choice (though you don't see the outcome)
- Dream On (same as above outside of the voicemail from Peralez)

The Beast has 3 different outcomes.

Rest fall for choice and consequence and NPC agency except for rooftop where situation forces V's hand.

 

[Jack_point]

I agree with the general topic but this part particularily.
One thing that I find kinda dumb in Cyberpunk is how the game gives you choices...Just to scream at you to pick one of the option rather than the other.

I mean, the decisions you make in this game already have very few impacts on what's gonna happen, if on top of that you can't think outside the box without being called "A piece of sh***" by Johnny, it really reduce the freedom the player has throughout the game.

I don't even get it, the lack of impact on the world is understandable because it would take an insane amount of time to create all the branchings but strongly encouarging the player to follow one way over another kinda makes no sense to me.

Yup, those blue options you get in convo's don't do shit to the story only the gold 1st answer moves it along.

Post automatically merged: Feb 2, 2021

I played male V and didn't had any romantic plans for Judy to begin with.

It's NPC agency. She is not alright after what happened earlier. Game doesn't give player a pop up saying so, instead it shows it through its own media. Player like it or not, but I really appreciate writing like this for not taking NPC agency away.


The Beast has 3 different outcomes.

Rest fall for choice and consequence and NPC agency except for rooftop where situation forces V's hand.

You can just do nothing on the rooftop. it still moves along the story.

 

[CS554]

You can just do nothing on the rooftop. it still moves along the story.

I'm not sure I get you.

 

[nadsh]

The Beast has 3 different outcomes.

Rest fall for choice and consequence and NPC agency except for rooftop where situation forces V's hand.

The Beast had also very limited impact. Again, compare The Pickup with any other quest. Nothing measures up.

NPC agency is one thing, but when you have just four LIs that are at the same time the main quest givers the lack of branching further restricts already limited content.

 

[V_for_Valerie]

If I remember correctly Judy had more setbacks than just the one with the Cloud coup. Her failed relationship with Maiko, her issues with Evelyn and Evelyns death on top, problems with her boss at Lizzy's, her job in general, feeling lonely in NC, ...

When I say "first setback", I was really referring to the whole Clouds business. I understand she went through a lot of shit and wanted to leave NC anyway, regardless of whether everything went smoothly or not. But to just abandon Clouds after the Tyger Claws attack is pretty irresponisble, especially since several of her close friends got killed and wounded on behalf of her plan. If anything, it should've been turned into a motivation to stay in NC for a while, if only to see that particular business through to the end - which would've been nice as an actual playable option, rather than just "welp, guess the Tyger Claws showed us who's boss".

 

[Jimmy_Goldenhand]

One of the senior writers addressed this in a tweet, I’ll see if I can find it for you!

View attachment 11164694
Maybe it’s just me being salty, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Guy should learn about self-criticism.
Ambiguity is one thing. Lack of an ending is another. And a good game makes the player think about his choices and want to explore other options. Not frustrate him.

 

[Jack_point]

I'm not sure I get you.

The game gives you a false sense of control where there is actually very little control on your part, i played it like an RPG picking choices i felt right at the time. It is a very linear game with some fluff secret endings you can get by doing some sides and not choosing at the end on the roof.

 

[Buckadoz]

The game gives you a false sense of control where there is actually very little control on your part, i played it like an RPG picking choices i felt right at the time. It is a very linear game with some fluff secret endings you can get by doing some sides and not choosing at the end on the roof.

Very weird to see people bring up the secret ending so often like it's something game changing. It's an alternate route to one of the other endings that prevents a couple people from being dead in the epilogue, that's it.

 

[Jack_point]

Very weird to see people bring up the secret ending so often like it's something game changing. It's an alternate route to one of the other endings that prevents a couple people from being dead in the epilogue, that's it.

Ergo my linear statement, what you click on in the blue section of conversations are fluff n filler. doesn't matter at all. 500hrs done all paths and tried every combo. in the end you're on a rollarcoaster to the same empty ending CDPR failed to complete/and or deleted content.

 

[CS554]

The Beast had also very limited impact. Again, compare The Pickup with any other quest. Nothing measures up.

NPC agency is one thing, but when you have just four LIs that are at the same time the main quest givers the lack of branching further restricts already limited content.

It has impact or not, how people perceive them is another matter. I while ago I read someone wrote how game choices lack impact because you can't do something like shoot every merchant and blow atom bomb like in Fallout 3. I can somehow get it, but at the same time I'm happy that's not the game I got.

Dog chasing its own tail is something I saw popped up in Mass Effect forum time to time. For me is quality vs quantity. I rather take NPC's with agency than convoluted reasons why their decisions should revolve around player character.

The game gives you a false sense of control where there is actually very little control on your part, i played it like an RPG picking choices i felt right at the time. It is a very linear game with some fluff secret endings you can get by doing some sides and not choosing at the end on the roof.

I thought you were referring to secret ending. It goes on by some minutes yes, before option shows up.

This linearity thing has been probably discussed with any game with choices ever. For me what we got made sense. There's relic chip in our heads, Arasaka is only company with that technology. Wouldn't make much sense that some other corp would have that technology and not offering it. Situation is the same in tabletop game.

 

[nadsh]

It has impact or not, how people perceive them is another matter. I while ago I read someone wrote how game choices lack impact because you can't do something like shoot every merchant and blow atom bomb like in Fallout 3. I can somehow get it, but at the same time I'm happy that's not the game I got.

Dog chasing its own tail is something I saw popped up in Mass Effect forum time to time. For me is quality vs quantity. I rather take NPC's with agency than convoluted reasons why their decisions should revolve around player character.

I never said that the NPCs should act out of character and bend over whatever V chooses to do. I said that there are few long side quest chains in the game, four out of them are given by the LIs, it's very easy to lock yourself out of them and there aren't any alternative branches opening interactions with other characters (Panam vs Saul, Judy vs Maiko, River vs new random NCPD quest line), making the game even shorter.
Nothing's gonna convince me that this linearity was a good thing, so

 

[V_for_Valerie]

Dog chasing its own tail is something I saw popped up in Mass Effect forum time to time. For me is quality vs quantity. I rather take NPC's with agency than convoluted reasons why their decisions should revolve around player character.

There needs to be a middle ground, though. I agree that characters whose decisions revolve around the player are not very compelling, but even NPCs with agency need to be somewhat malleable by the player, otherwise there's no point in you interacting with them. Take Joshua Stephenson - he has a clear goal, to make the crucifixion BD, and no matter what the player says or does, they can't convince him otherwise. This makes the interactions with him, and by extension the quest as a whole, completely pointless. Trying to empathize with him brings about the exact same outcome as not taking him seriously. The relationship between Joshua and V is meaningless and gives nothing to the player.

Also, the way that Cyberpunk's NPCs are written means that more often than not, their worlds do revolve around the player. Almost every quest-giver is inexplicably obsessed with V and treats them as the only answer to their problems, as if there are no other mercenaries in Night City, and yet very few of them actually value V's opinions or input. This doesn't make for a particularly exciting dynamic. It makes sense for unimportant gigs and jobs, but not for story-driven quests.

 

[Balmung79]

When I say "first setback", I was really referring to the whole Clouds business. I understand she went through a lot of shit and wanted to leave NC anyway, regardless of whether everything went smoothly or not. But to just abandon Clouds after the Tyger Claws attack is pretty irresponisble, especially since several of her close friends got killed and wounded on behalf of her plan. If anything, it should've been turned into a motivation to stay in NC for a while, if only to see that particular business through to the end - which would've been nice as an actual playable option, rather than just "welp, guess the Tyger Claws showed us who's boss".

If you stick to the plan you made with Judy and the dolls, I'm totally with you: her plan is crap since after the coup the dolls and the Clouds are unprotected. Maiko dies through V or in the upcoming Tyger Claws revenge. V, Judy and the others should have assessed the situation better and have foreseen that the Tyger Claws come for revenge.
And, that's my interpretation, she knows that at the Pyramid's Song mission and admits to herself that she is absolutely powerless and can not change anything with how NC works. She concludes that whatever she does in NC there are never wins, not even a compromise but always total submission to things she hates. Even more that she is even perpetuating everything by being a part of it if she stays. She is hopeless, she is absolutely disillusioned, that's why she is depressed in NC.

Even the other options V has won't change that by the way:

1. To not take that mission at all. Everythings stays at it is, the dolls are at least still protected by the Tyger Claws, that asshole boss stays as well. No Pyramid' Song mission tho, you can not romance or befriend Judy. I guess she would leave NC anyway, but who knows for sure.
2. Go with Maiko's plan. The asshole boss gets killed by the Tyger Claws bosses, and Maiko takes his position, the Tyger Claws bosses survive and they get lots of money each month for not messing around (protection money). The dolls are safe, but the situation is not that better for them. If you take the money Judy is pissed and there'll be no future interaction with her, she'll probably leave NC anyway. If you do not take any money from Maiko you can still romance/befriend Judy in Pyramid's Song even tho she is pissed first. She'll leave NC eventually.

So if you go with 1. Judy will probably leave NC anyway because of her powerlessness, hopelessness and depression, if you go with Maikos money in 2. it's probably the same. If you do not take the money and you befriend/romance Judy further, she will still leave NC.

 

[CS554]

I never said that the NPCs should act out of character and bend over whatever V chooses to do. I said that there are few long side quest chains in the game, four out of them are given by the LIs, it's very easy to lock yourself out of them and there aren't any alternative branches opening interactions with other characters (Panam vs Saul, Judy vs Maiko, River vs new random NCPD quest line), making the game even shorter.
Nothing's gonna convince me that this linearity was a good thing, so

You never said, but it still comes down to following thing. How humans, work. There's only so many situations that enable possibility for certain kind of bonding and trust. Miss that window, and it's gone. I'm not talking about the game, but this is also how it works in game.

Access all content at once, then what about the re-playability? What about choice and consequence? People would still be complaining about linearity.

There needs to be a middle ground, though. I agree that characters whose decisions revolve around the player are not very compelling, but even NPCs with agency need to be somewhat malleable by the player, otherwise there's no point in you interacting with them. Take Joshua Stephenson - he has a clear goal, to make the crucifixion BD, and no matter what the player says or does, they can't convince him otherwise. This makes the interactions with him, and by extension the quest as a whole, completely pointless. Trying to empathize with him brings about the exact same outcome as not taking him seriously. The relationship between Joshua and V is meaningless and gives nothing to the player.

No, there really doesn't. It presents certain kind of scenario in the world, to tell about that world and people. So player could change the outcome, what would be the message then?

 

[Guest 4412420]

- Sinnerman (& associated quests): You spend the entire questline talking vague philosophy for a while with Joshua, and the game implies to you that your conversations with him might have some kind of an impact on his decision at the end. They don't. Either way, he gets crucified, and absolutely nothing happens afterward. This quest basically turns you into a passenger while the game tells the story it wants to tell, which would be tolerable if the story in question actually went somewhere. It doesn't, so it just ends up feeling like a huge waste of time.

Your conversations with Joshua do have an impact on him but not on the decision.

I did this quest twice and how he talked to V in the dressing room and Rachel's phone calls were different. I can only assume that telling him that the braindance thing is crazy and then choosing not to talk about faith in a diner is what changes this? The changes are small but they're there. Having more options though would have been nice.

 

[V_for_Valerie]

No, there really doesn't. It presents certain kind of scenario in the world, to tell about that world and people. So player could change the outcome, what would be the message then?

In that case, there's no point in the game having dialogue trees at all. Might as well have quests like Sinnerman carried out entirely in pre-rendered cutscenes where V's interactions are 100% scripted.

What you're describing exists: movies. Video games, especially role-playing games, are an entirely different medium with different expectations to be met.

 

[Jack_point]

It has impact or not, how people perceive them is another matter. I while ago I read someone wrote how game choices lack impact because you can't do something like shoot every merchant and blow atom bomb like in Fallout 3. I can somehow get it, but at the same time I'm happy that's not the game I got.

Dog chasing its own tail is something I saw popped up in Mass Effect forum time to time. For me is quality vs quantity. I rather take NPC's with agency than convoluted reasons why their decisions should revolve around player character.


I thought you were referring to secret ending. It goes on by some minutes yes, before option shows up.

This linearity thing has been probably discussed with any game with choices ever. For me what we got made sense. There's relic chip in our heads, Arasaka is only company with that technology. Wouldn't make much sense that some other corp would have that technology and not offering it. Situation is the same in tabletop game.

It would make a whole lot more sense if the two week timer was real, instead it's just fake urgency. But i do agree with you in some aspects. Give us a fake timer so we can do pointless item/level grinding if you're going to put in a timer then make it real give players that urgency it claims to be.

 

[CS554]

In that case, there's no point in the game having dialogue trees at all. Might as well have quests like Sinnerman carried out entirely in pre-rendered cutscenes where V's interactions are 100% scripted.

What you're describing exists: movies. Video games, especially role-playing games, are an entirely different medium with different expectations to be met.

No. the point of Sinnerman is to portray certain aspects of dystopian future. Interaction gives us possibility to get more information, we have some choice, but it's really asking about some disturbing questions.

Choice and consequence is no way bound to have huge impact or totally different outcomes, player having much control in the world. I played games since Commodore 64. For story driven games, I stopped because games simply didn't reflect the things concerning me, they became... too naive, too irrelevant to topics I was interested about, repulsive even.

I got this game as early Christmas present from my sister who knows I'm to genre (the cyberpunk) and I was really surprised by Cyberpunk 2077.

 

[Jack_point]

In that case, there's no point in the game having dialogue trees at all. Might as well have quests like Sinnerman carried out entirely in pre-rendered cutscenes where V's interactions are 100% scripted.

What you're describing exists: movies. Video games, especially role-playing games, are an entirely different medium with different expectations to be met.

Hmm sorry but V's interactions are 100% scripted all you're doing is making choices that don't count.