[Spoilers] Where is the punchline?

[CTPhipps]

Keanu Reeves is the punchline. Story and lore went out the window when they decided to center the game around him

Yes, because people actually believe the nonsense that they rewrote the game about him versus had the plan to use Johnny and brain chips from the beginning.

Post automatically merged: Jan 13, 2021

Interestingly enough, did they not think that half of the people not gonna like Johnny and wanna get rid of him and play without him ruining the game? It's like they really ham fisted it to us and go "LIKE HIM, YOU HAVE TO LIKE HIM".

Yes, they don't like the game. It happens. They can go play something else. It happens.

 

[Hexagon-Sun]

"You lose the game". That's the punchline
When you give me one goal and don't let me complete it properly I basically lost.
May be fine for some players but for me the best thing about a game is the rewards. I found none here.
The reward for me was the cure and all I got was something like "maybe you got a cure off screen". Never in any game that I played did I feel so stupid.

 

[I_Willenbrock_I]

"You lose the game". That's the punchline
When you give me one goal and don't let me complete it properly I basically lost.
May be fine for some players but for me the best thing about a game is the rewards. I found none here.
The reward for me was the cure and all I got was something like "maybe you got a cure off screen". Never in any game that I played did I feel so stupid.

Well.

Maybe getting something off screen can not beat really getting something on screen.

 

[Hexagon-Sun]

Well.

Maybe getting something off screen can not beat really getting something on screen.

I want all of my game on screen thank you very much.

 

[Droladya]

Yes, because people actually believe the nonsense that they rewrote the game about him versus had the plan to use Johnny and brain chips from the beginning.

Post automatically merged: Jan 13, 2021

Yes, they don't like the game. It happens. They can go play something else. It happens.

They do have a version about more epic charactor, but I believe it's not going too deep.
Add too much core charactor is a bad idea, they just try to found the best one at early phase.
The trouble is lack of main story fade V away, but Johnney's part is completed.
V actually failed from the start to the end, but Johnney can do what he want.
That's... no doubt people would believe conspiracy theory.

 

[ArvGuy]

Yes, because people actually believe the nonsense that they rewrote the game about him versus had the plan to use Johnny and brain chips from the beginning.

Post automatically merged: Jan 13, 2021

Yes, they don't like the game. It happens. They can go play something else. It happens.

The people at CDPR are probably some of the best in the world at what they do, despite what we might be feeling right now. If they spend years working full tilt on something then it strikes me as truly remarkable that they don't manage more than what we're seeing in CP77.

There are not really any deeper questions being asked in the story, plot problems are plentiful, there is barely even an illusion of player agency, and most of the story is just Rambo-on-Rails gung-ho looter-shooter standard fare where we rush into situations with minimal planning and gun our way through any problems. Go here and shoot these people, go there and shoot those people, now have a long chatty section where you mostly only have one dialogue option that progresses the show.

There is some clever stuff here and there, stuff that actually made me smile. That pharmacy lady that killed a bunch of nomads, if you read her email then she's getting blackmailed, and then later you can find a crime scene with a woman and some goons hired to take out the woman by the pharmacy lady. That is neat. But stuff like this isn't organized, you have to look real hard to find it, it isn't systematic, and mostly the game is just a mess.

And the ending would have been so much more satisfying, if there had just been some damn point to it. V deciding to take the hit for a cause, for starving children, for Jackie's mom, for the people at the Cloud, for Nomad family, for glory, whatever. Just something! But in my view, you have to be absolutely nuts to find any emotional satisfaction in this story. Johnny is the only character that grows even a little bit, and nothing really gets resolved.

 

[nadsh]

And the ending would have been so much more satisfying, if there had just been some damn point to it. V deciding to take the hit for a cause, for starving children, for Jackie's mom, for the people at the Cloud, for Nomad family, for glory, whatever. Just something! But in my view, you have to be absolutely nuts to find any emotional satisfaction in this story. Johnny is the only character that grows even a little bit, and nothing really gets resolved.

A somewhat popular take seems to be that at least by the end V learns what they want in life, after being forced to face their own mortality. That they're able to live their remaining time to the fullest after choosing what to prioritize between family/friends and the dream of being a legend. And I can see that it works quite well if you RP V a certain way (starting as an ambitious, materialistic corpo that gets close to the Aldecaldos and ends up leaving with them, or dreaming of being a NC legend with Jackie from the start and achieving it, etc).

It doesn't work for me. The interpretation is usually based on the contrast between the The Sun and The Star, doesn't take The Devil into account and ignores different motives for picking the final allies on the rooftop. NC is a shithole but some people still thrive in it, and 6 months are an incredibly short time to "live life to the fullest", especially in V's condition. So yeah, I never got that feeling.

There are a lot of recurring themes in the game and they're all valid, but they're also often conflicting and don't work for all characters. Quiet life/blaze of glory, will to live/acceptance of death, materialism/spiritualism, desensitization/empathy, relationships and close connections/lonely ambitions, the different motives for picking each lifepath, the morality of corps and those who oppose them, and probably many others I can't think of right now.

I agree that V grows from the experience, or at least has the possibility to do so. In the conversation with the doll at Clouds one of the dialogue options shows that V never really thought about their own death, only considered it as something that happened to other people and they had to deal with. But while the price to pay for being a legend is one of the recurring messages of the game, and players can easily RP V to take a clear "quiet life vs blaze of glory" journey, I never saw it as the core message of the main quest and it definitely didn't fit my V. Her only evident struggle was with survival, the only journey was towards a cure. She ended Act 3 in a very similar position to how she started Act 2. Wiser and more resourceful, but still dying and grieving another friend. More than a message, the ending raised a question mark.

 

[CTPhipps]

The people at CDPR are probably some of the best in the world at what they do, despite what we might be feeling right now. If they spend years working full tilt on something then it strikes me as truly remarkable that they don't manage more than what we're seeing in CP77.

There's not a deep story here. They moved all of the Cyberpunk 2077 staff from their project to polish the Witcher 3 and kept them there until Blood and Wine was done. In other words, despite 8 years of development, it was actually about 4 years and that meant that this game didn't get nearly the time it needed.

 

[I_Willenbrock_I]

A somewhat popular take seems to be that at least by the end V learns what they want in life, after being forced to face their own mortality. That they're able to live their remaining time to the fullest after choosing what to prioritize between family/friends and the dream of being a legend. And I can see that it works quite well if you RP V a certain way (starting as an ambitious, materialistic corpo that gets close to the Aldecaldos and ends up leaving with them, or dreaming of being a NC legend with Jackie from the start and achieving it, etc).

It doesn't work for me. The interpretation is usually based on the contrast between the The Sun and The Star, doesn't take The Devil into account and ignores different motives for picking the final allies on the rooftop. NC is a shithole but some people still thrive in it, and 6 months are an incredibly short time to "live life to the fullest", especially in V's condition. So yeah, I never got that feeling.

There are a lot of recurring themes in the game and they're all valid, but they're also often conflicting and don't work for all characters. Quiet life/blaze of glory, will to live/acceptance of death, materialism/spiritualism, desensitization/empathy, relationships and close connections/lonely ambitions, the different motives for picking each lifepath, the morality of corps and those who oppose them, and probably many others I can't think of right now.

I agree that V grows from the experience, or at least has the possibility to do so. In the conversation with the doll at Clouds one of the dialogue options shows that V never really thought about their own death, only considered it as something that happened to other people and they had to deal with. But while the price to pay for being a legend is one of the recurring messages of the game, and players can easily RP V to take a clear "quiet life vs blaze of glory" journey, I never saw it as the core message of the main quest and it definitely didn't fit my V. Her only evident struggle was with survival, the only journey was towards a cure. She ended Act 3 in a very similar position to how she started Act 2. Wiser and more resourceful, but still dying and grieving another friend. More than a message, the ending raised a question mark.

The massage to value life over money would be an interesting character development.
If the result would not have been forced by a second plot cancer.

Now, we don't k ow if it is a real change in character or just resignation.

 

[nadsh]

The massage to value life over money would be an interesting character development.
If the result would not have been forced by a second plot cancer.

Now, we don't k ow if it is a real change in character or just resignation.

Yes but when you play a V that values their own life (no LIs, no greater good) over money, it still falls flat. I never took the Clouds scene as accepting death, just "oh shit, I guess I can die too, better fix that". Knowing that it's a possibility so you don't get overconfident and take things for granted. It worked for Johnny.

 

[I_Willenbrock_I]

Yes but when you play a V that values their own life (no LIs, no greater good) over money, it still falls flat. I never took the Clouds scene as accepting death, just "oh shit, I guess I can die too, better fix that". Knowing that it's a possibility so you don't get overconfident and take things for granted. It worked for Johnny.

And that's exactly why its not sure if it would be a real change in character or simple resignation.

I had points in my life where I gave up. I had to. We all had those points in life.
However, it was always our choice to give up. That's why this games endings feel so bad. Giving up is forced on the player.

 

[eladrius]

As I have stated in another thread I feel that this game is part 1 of a longer story and that the paid DLC's are the other acts that finish the story. The endings we have now, from what I have read as I have not completed the game once (I keep restarting), feel to me like a place holder or temporary filler until the next part of the story is done.

 

[I_Willenbrock_I]

As I have stated in another thread I feel that this game is part 1 of a longer story and that the paid DLC's are the other acts that finish the story. The endings we have now, from what I have read as I have not completed the game once (I keep restarting), feel to me like a place holder or temporary filler until the next part of the story is done.

Make people sick and sell the cure.

Perfect corpo fashion.

 

[Witzzard]

They could have made it a story about acceptance and a meditation about existance and what it means, but they haven't written anything about acceptance of what existance might mean to V or the player. V fights for life, something the authors seemingly don't want V to get (or at best leaves it nebulous). It's not about Bushido and accepting death for duty and honor. Not about family and different meaning until the final fate and how one might come to terms with that or waste time fighting it (as no choice is given). Not about sacrificing oneself for something greater. It's in a way devoid of a meaning, besides the struggle. Bereft of an actual timer to think one might actually be wasting time, but also of the alternative to have fun without fighting it. Not being able to talk about the impeding doom with the romances is one of big missing pieces imo.
Even the one situation in which V can somewhat accept the finality, it ends with a bang, instead of actual calmness - a choice that also isn't really great for public health.
And as many people rightuflly pointed out, it's a story ill-fitted for exploration of an open-world and to show off the Cyberpunk world itself.

So the only short message i might see is "Life is struggle until you die". Which is imo quite abritrary to tell anyone really.

 

[nadsh]

They could have made it a story about acceptance and a meditation about existance and what it means, but they haven't written anything about acceptance of what existance might mean to V or the player. V fights for life, something the authors seemingly don't want V to get (or at best leaves it nebulous). It's not about Bushido and accepting death for duty and honor. Not about family and different meaning until the final fate and how one might come to terms with that or waste time fighting it (as no choice is given). Not about sacrificing oneself for something greater. It's in a way devoid of a meaning, besides the struggle. Bereft of an actual timer to think one might actually be wasting time, but also of the alternative to have fun without fighting it. Not being able to talk about the impeding doom with the romances is one of big missing pieces imo.
Even the one situation in which V can somewhat accept the finality, it ends with a bang, instead of actual calmness - a choice that also isn't really great for public health.
And as many people rightuflly pointed out, it's a story ill-fitted for exploration of an open-world and to show off the Cyberpunk world itself.

So the only short message i might see is "Life is struggle until you die". Which is imo quite abritrary to tell anyone really.

I wanted to add that it's one thing to write a linear story about the acceptance of death with a set, established character (like in RDR2), but writing one in an immersive RPG in which the player makes choices and shapes the main character is completely different. I don't see it work very well for the majority of players, especially if the premise of the game didn't make it clear.

 

[Simuxas]

Because the story doesn't really revolve about acceptance of death, it revolves about keep going, and not giving up, yet we get screwed over in the end.
Difference is, RDR2 brings "you are dying" somewhere in the middle of the story. It is the end of 19th century and tuberculosis is a deadly disease, we know from history it that it was at that time uncurable. After we get introduced with it, Arthur view changes on everything and he tries to become a better person (more or less depending on our chocies, funny how it has more choices) before he leaves this world. We know how it is gonna end, and we were prepared for it. It didn't pull the death shit at the end of the story.

 

[Witzzard]

I wanted to add that it's one thing to write a linear story about the acceptance of death with a set, established character (like in RDR2), but writing one in an immersive RPG in which the player makes choices and shapes the main character is completely different. I don't see it work very well for the majority of players, especially if the premise of the game didn't make it clear.

The biggest problem is that you don't have a lot of gameplay loops for this coming to acceptance in our "fighting" games
But if you look at how different paths could look when you could make a choice in act 2 you could have the Alvecados/Corpo/Silverhand paths as different ideas (Family+Enjoyment ; Richness trying to cheat death; Sacrifice to improve the world or trying to become a famous asshole) - and quite a few other different ones. And they all, imo, could offer quite interesting and different quests and experiences with some overlaps.
I think it could work, even for quite a lot of poeple, but it doesn't work with what they've done. So yes, it needs to be more clear earlier, and not some strange double dip in the end of "You're dying - go get healed there - oops didn't work - maybe go get somewhere else healed?".

 

[nadsh]

Because the story doesn't really revolve about acceptance of death, it revolves about keep going, and not giving up, yet we get screwed over in the end.
Difference is, RDR2 brings "you are dying" somewhere in the middle of the story. It is the end of 19th century and tuberculosis is a deadly disease, we know from history it that it was at that time uncurable. After we get introduced with it, Arthur view changes on everything and he tries to become a better person (more or less depending on our chocies, funny how it has more choices) before he leaves this world. We know how it is gonna end, and we were prepared for it. It didn't pull the death shit at the end of the story.

I agree, I never got that message in CP either. Just "keep fighting". But if it was about acceptance, it would still be harder to make it work for most players in a game with a custom protagonist.

 

[I_Willenbrock_I]

I agree, I never got that message in CP either. Just "keep fighting". But if it was about acceptance, it would still be harder to make it work for most players in a game with a custom protagonist.

Things dont add up.

We fight to live, we win and our price is death. Thats just running in circles without learning anything.

 

[Simuxas]

The biggest problem is that you don't have a lot of gameplay loops for this coming to acceptance in our "fighting" games
But if you look at how different paths could look when you could make a choice in act 2 you could have the Alvecados/Corpo/Silverhand paths as different ideas (Family+Enjoyment ; Richness trying to cheat death; Sacrifice to improve the world or trying to become a famous asshole) - and quite a few other different ones. And they all, imo, could offer quite interesting and different quests and experiences with some overlaps.
I think it could work, even for quite a lot of poeple, but it doesn't work with what they've done. So yes, it needs to be more clear earlier, and not some strange double dip in the end of "You're dying - go get healed there - oops didn't work - maybe go get somewhere else healed?".

I have mentioned in another post, that endings could be fixed simply, it's in my signiture.
But having completely happy endings and completely bad ones wouldn't really make sense. As i mentioned before endings with equal tradeoffs should fit the best, just like TW3 did.