[Spoilers] Who would have been more interesting to have on the shard?

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We can almost conclude with certainty that it wasn't Saburo's clone that was killed in the Heist
Yep, he was. If it was not the case, in the Devil ending it wouldn't be Saburo's engram who V speak to. So yeah, Saburo it well dead in the heist, by his own son, Yorinobu.

How do you know he didn't? Arasaka has secret facilities all over the world and Soburo could have a backup storage somewhere with an Engram ready to be integrated. It's only a few weeks from the day he dies to the end of the game, he could be sitting somewhere sipping coffee and waiting to see how things play out.
His engram is "alive", but he don't drink quietly a coffee somewhere, he's "stuck" in Mikoshi (like all the other engrams) since Yorinobu became the "Arasaka's emperor" and closed all the access/infos to anyone, even to his sister, Hanako :D

And for recall, the Relic (prototype) have never, never worked before V. No human have never survive to the process. If it was the case, for sure, Saburo would have already been transferred to a younger body...
 
Yep, he was. If it was not the case, in the Devil ending it wouldn't be Saburo's engram who V speak to. So yeah, Saburo it well dead in the heist, by his own son, Yorinobu.
Oh, I totally agree that it was Saburo proper that is murdered in the Heist. I was refuting the Clone Theory.
 
Oh, I totally agree that it was Saburo proper that is murdered in the Heist. I was refuting the Clone Theory.
Besides, why assign his best bodyguard (Goro) to a "body/clone" that could be killed without it being a problem :)
(If it was a simple clone, it can die, no big deal, Saburo would "remake" another one...)
 
Yep, he was. If it was not the case, in the Devil ending it wouldn't be Saburo's engram who V speak to. So yeah, Saburo it well dead in the heist, by his own son, Yorinobu.


His engram is "alive", but he don't drink quietly a coffee somewhere, he's "stuck" in Mikoshi (like all the other engrams) since Yorinobu became the "Arasaka's emperor" and closed all the access/infos to anyone, even to his sister, Hanako :D

And for recall, the Relic (prototype) have never, never worked before V. No human have never survive to the process. If it was the case, for sure, Saburo would have already been transferred to a younger body...

But creating an engram kills you, so how is he there?
 
Why couldn't clones have accelerated aging? We've pretty much figured out what causes aging IRL today.
Clones could have accelerated aging in sci-fi where you don't have to explain anything but in the medical sense, a clone would have to age in a normal manner just as a human would.

Clones are also independent from the host, so they would probably have to be made brain dead and vacant if consciousness transfer were such a thing.
Why not? What good is a video game where you cannot discover ground truths? If everything is a lie, how does the plot progress?

We're playing a video game with a set amount of gameplay hours invested. We're not playing a pen & paper game where we have the luxury of taking months and months to get to the nitty gritty.
Besides, why assigned his best bodyguard (Goro) to a "body/clone" that could be killed without it being a problem :)
Why would a clone bother to document the trip in the datapad you find in Saburo's AV? I am not the once that needs to be convinced that the real Saburo died that night
 
Besides, why assign his best bodyguard (Goro) to a "body/clone" that could be killed without it being a problem :)
(If it was a simple clone, it can die, no big deal, Saburo would "remake" another one...)

It would be pretty suspicious if the best bodyguard stopped guarding him, don't you think?
 
But creating an engram kills you, so how is he there?
Using Soulkiller to fry the body and forcefully eject the consciousness is what kills you.

Since Soulkiller 2.0 is Arasaka's take on Alt's code, perhaps it has a failsafe that allowed Saburo to copy his engram to Relic without dying?

Just putting it out there since we are entertaining hypotheticals. No one is right or wrong and we're all coming up with really good theories.
It would be pretty suspicious if the best bodyguard stopped guarding him, don't you think?
A very valid point. Saburo would keep up appearances no matter what. It is hard to tell whether or not Saburo flat out underestimated Yorinobu, or he knew exactly how to trigger him into violence.

If it were, me I'd probably chosen to use the ruse of a heart attack or something rather than having my son strangle me to death, but again appearances. Perhaps the turmoil of events following his murder is also part of the plan? Lull his enemies into a false sense of security because they genuinely believe the Emperor is dead?
 
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Using Soulkiller to fry the body and forcefully eject the consciousness is what kills you.

Since Soulkiller 2.0 is Arasaka's take on Alt's code, perhaps it has a failsafe that allowed Saburo to copy his engram to Relic without dying?

Just putting it out there since we are entertaining hypotheticals. No one is right or wrong and we're all coming up with really good theories.

A very valid point. Saburo would keep up appearances no matter what. It is hard to tell whether or not Saburo flat out underestimated Yorinobu, or he knew exactly how to trigger him into violence.

If it were, me I'd probably chosen to use the ruse of a heart attack or something rather than having my son strangle me to death, but again appearances. Perhaps the turmoil of events following his murder is also part of the plan? Lull his enemies into a false sense of security because they genuinely believe the Emperor is dead?
There's a ton of insight on the possibilities or not of the Relic that you can get from playing the Devil ending -- the one where you help Hanako.
 
Clones could have accelerated aging in sci-fi where you don't have to explain anything but in the medical sense, a clone would have to age in a normal manner just as a human would.
You should read up on the subject. Fascinating reading if you can cipher the medical terms, but that's not far-fetched Sci-Fi at all.

Clones are also independent from the host, so they would probably have to be made brain dead and vacant if consciousness transfer were such a thing.
In the TT lore, Spider Murphy discovered one such a place. Vats of braindead clones.
Why not? What good is a video game where you cannot discover ground truths? If everything is a lie, how does the plot progress?
V doesn't know anything about the chip or the VDB connection. Does that stop you from progressing the story beyond act 1? That seems like a weird thing to say.
We're playing a video game with a set amount of gameplay hours invested. We're not playing a pen & paper game where we have the luxury of taking months and months to get to the nitty gritty.
You presume CDPR planned this game to not have a sequel? They've made 3 Witchers.
Why would a clone bother to document the trip in the datapad you find in Saburo's AV? I am not the once that needs to be convinced that the real Saburo died that night
How would a clone know it's not Soburo with implanted memories? The prophet Garry is shockingly close to the truth, you should listen to him. :D
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Using Soulkiller to fry the body and forcefully eject the consciousness is what kills you.
It doesn't "eject" anything, consciousness is just a by-product. It copies your brain, like a schematic, that process fries your brain. There is no "transfer". You die, you don't wake up later somewhere else, you just end. What does wake up, is a self-aware consciousness with your memories, a clone.
Since Soulkiller 2.0 is Arasaka's take on Alt's code, perhaps it has a failsafe that allowed Saburo to copy his engram to Relic without dying?
Based on what?
Just putting it out there since we are entertaining hypotheticals. No one is right or wrong and we're all coming up with really good theories.
Yes, I'm not trying to argue anything.
A very valid point. Saburo would keep up appearances no matter what. It is hard to tell whether or not Saburo flat out underestimated Yorinobu, or he knew exactly how to trigger him into violence.

If it were, me I'd probably chosen to use the ruse of a heart attack or something rather than having my son strangle me to death, but again appearances. Perhaps the turmoil of events following his murder is also part of the plan? Lull his enemies into a false sense of security because they genuinely believe the Emperor is dead?
He could be in purely digital form somewhere in space for all we know.
 
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Using soulkiller flatline the target after copying the consciousness and memories. Soulkiller is a "weapon" who simply copy and erase all who is in the brain of the unfortunate dude. And depending on what Alt says, only memories and consciousness are copied, everything else disappears (maybe your soul... hence the name "Soul Killer")

Using "Protect you soul" program as the richest poeple amound the richest have did, don't kill you obviously. Save your soul is a simple "backup" whitout any danger (except on your bank account). Save your Soul can also be a lie, because like the Soul Killer, it only save memories and consciousness and not whatever else it remains, if you think memories and consciousness is not the only think who can define what is "you" (it could be a debate).

So Saburo have use "Save your soul" on him. The Soul Killer is used "for free" on Arasaka's enemies or those who want to "scratch Arasaka's ICE" :)

Anyway, engram can not be put in a body (clone or not, whatever). Otherwise Hananko wouldn't ask V not to hurt Yorinobu and Saburo wouldn't have to use his son's body to come back.
 
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Using soulkiller flatline the target after copying the consciousness and memories. Soulkiller is a "weapon" who simply copy and erase all who is in the brain of the unfortunate dude. And depending on what Alt says, only memories and consciousness are copied, everything else disappears (maybe your soul... hence the name "Soul Killer")

Using "Protect you soul" program as the richest poeple amound the richest have did, don't kill you obviously. Save your soul is a simple "backup" whitout any danger (except on your bank account). Save your Soul can also be a lie, because like the Soul Killer, it only save memories and consciousness and not whatever else it remains, if you think memories and consciousness is not the only think who can define what is "you" (it could be a debate).

So Saburo have use "Save your soul" on him. The Soul Killer is used "for free" on Arasaka's enemies or those who want to "scratch Arasaka's ICE" :)

Anyway, engram can not be put in a body (clone or not, whatever). Otherwise Hananko wouldn't ask V not to hurt Yorinobu and Saburo wouldn't have to use his son's body to come back.
I think it's a Soulkiller in both occasions. Like, lighter version for daddy Saburo and rich wallets. Maybe this Soulkiller thing is all about Buddhism and terminology? Monks tell us that "if entity suffers - it's alive", but Alt tells us "it's just ones and zeroes, no soul". Depends on your take on what soul actually is. But then we have that twist with Saburo, when he came back to life in body of his son in The Devil.

So, technically speaking, "ones and zeroes" have become a fully functional living being. But does Saburo have a soul in his new body? I'm pretty far from spiritual matters, I simply don't believe in religious concept of "Soul". But morally Saburo is definitely a total POS and souless bastard.

Anyway, engram can not be put in a body (clone or not, whatever). Otherwise Hananko wouldn't ask V not to hurt Yorinobu and Saburo wouldn't have to use his son's body to come back.
While engram by itself is just a data, "nannites" (whatever they are from the science perspective) are the working bees who overwrite the brain by creating new neural connections. My take is any engram can be used. But the tech itself was for Saburo only, so no "miracle resurrection" for others.
I think Hanako just wanted Yori's body to be intact. Like, don't mess with my pops new body, we need neither bullet holes nor internal hemorrhages in it to bother with.
 
I think it's a Soulkiller in both occasions. Like, lighter version for daddy Saburo and rich wallets. Maybe this Soulkiller thing is all about Buddhism and terminology? Monks tell us that "if entity suffers - it's alive", but Alt tells us "it's just ones and zeroes, no soul". Depends on your take on what soul actually is. But then we have that twist with Saburo, when he came back to life in body of his son in The Devil.

So, technically speaking, "ones and zeroes" have become a fully functional living being. But does Saburo have a soul in his new body? I'm pretty far from spiritual matters, I simply don't believe in religious concept of "Soul". But morally Saburo is definitely a total POS and souless bastard.


While engram by itself is just a data, "nannites" (whatever they are from the science perspective) are the working bees who overwrite the brain by creating new neural connections. My take is any engram can be used. But the tech itself was for Saburo only, so no "miracle resurrection" for others.
I think Hanako just wanted Yori's body to be intact. Like, don't mess with my pops new body, we need neither bullet holes nor internal hemorrhages in it to bother with.

The real question you should be asking is "does it matter?" If a digital program is self-aware, why would it be less than an organic consciousness when it's indistinguishable from the original, and the nanites in the relic restructure the brain to be a perfect copy of the original.
 
The real question you should be asking is "does it matter?" If a digital program is self-aware, why would it be less than an organic consciousness when it's indistinguishable from the original, and the nanites in the relic restructure the brain to be a perfect copy of the original.
Not perfect if you read the shard that Hellman give to V.
If I remember, less than 90%. Which is an acceptable figure according to him. So not bad but not perfect :)
Relic 2.0 : Prototype Specifications
I think it's a Soulkiller in both occasions. Like, lighter version for daddy Saburo and rich wallets.
It is a modified version of SoulKiller :)
Secure Your Soul
 
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The real question you should be asking is "does it matter?" If a digital program is self-aware, why would it be less than an organic consciousness when it's indistinguishable from the original, and the nanites in the relic restructure the brain to be a perfect copy of the original.
I'm sorry, it may be not very clear from my message, but that's exactly what I'm thinking of this matter. Your father/mother/sibling/ friend etc. - you appreciate them for who they are as a person, not for the abstract "soul". For me "soul " - is the bioelectrical activity of the brain, which defines you as a person through years of gaining living experience.

Also I doubt that engram by itself is capable of being "real person" (meaning, being able to gain life experience, point of view, being happy or being upset, all those little things that depicture us as humans), it needs a living "host", that's capable of comprehension and unification of all cognitive and physiological functions in one macroorganism.

It may sound a little ridiculous, but I like how Bethesda made Curie quest in Fallout 4, when she wasn't able to comprehend world around in the shell of robot, she needed a human body, even if it was artificial.
 
Not perfect if you read the shard that Hellman give to V.
If I remember, less than 90%. Which is an acceptable figure according to him. So not bad but not perfect :)
Relic 2.0 : Prototype Specifications

You remember maybe 0.00001% of your life. Only the stuff you associate with strong emotions or sensations, like smell, fear, pain and so on. You only remember the farts that make you gag.
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I'm sorry, it may be not very clear from my message, but that's exactly what I'm thinking of this matter. Your father/mother/sibling/ friend etc. - you appreciate them for who they are as a person, not for the abstract "soul". For me "soul " - is the bioelectrical activity of the brain, which defines you as a person through years of gaining living experience.

Also I doubt that engram by itself is capable of being "real person" (meaning, being able to gain life experience, point of view, being happy or being upset, all those little things that depicture us as humans), it needs a living "host", that's capable of comprehension and unification of all cognitive and physiological functions in one macroorganism.

It may sound a little ridiculous, but I like how Bethesda made Curie quest in Fallout 4, when she wasn't able to comprehend world around in the shell of robot, she needed a human body, even if it was artificial.

In the case of Curie, she lacked senses, not comprehension. It would be like asking a deaf person to explain music to you.

Yes, an engram needs neural a network to to create new "memories", but it doesn't need to be biological. AI's "remember" things just fine. If you could create an entirely synthetic brain and implant an engram into it, there would be no difference from a real person. Which of course, would make biological humans obsolete in the eyes of the materialist. Of course, it would also make evolution come to a screeching halt and doom the species as a whole. Then again, unless we get off this rock, and relatively soon, we'll go extinct regardless so *shrug*
 
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You remember maybe 0.001% of your life. Only the stuff you associate with strong emotions or sensations, like smell, fear, pain and so on. You only remember the farts that make you gag.
Maybe but it's not only what I "can remember" who made me who I am today, it's all (even what I forget or choose to forget) :)
So a "90% copy" is not a "perfect copy" at all.

So Johnny is probably not the same as Johnny before soulkilled and Saburo is not the same as Suburo before been "Save your Souled" and Alt is definitly not the same as Alt before 2013.
And obviously, V will not longer be the same after coming back in his/her body (or leaving behind the black wall).

Johnny : "V will return in his/her body, nothing will change, right ?"
Alt : "Everything will be different, you should know that well Johnny...!"
 
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Maybe but it's not only what I "can remember" who made me who I am today, it's all (even what I forget or choose to forget) :)
So a "90% copy" is not a "perfect copy" at all.

So Johnny is probably not the same as Johnny before soulkilled and Saburo is not the same as Suburo before been "Save your Souled" and Alt is definitly not the same as Alt before 2013.

Ehh, still close enough. With a new neural network (brain) you can replace that stuff anyways. I mean, we don't classify people with amnesia as "soulless" or whatever.
 
While i was around when these convos happened, it interesting to read a few years later.
IMO, I am sure cloning was done, test and experimented and discovered that it fails.
But as seen in the Devil ending, genetic compatible host speeds the process faster or allows the process to be successful.
V the only one that is shown to dispel that theory. Which to say it still overwrite the original host engrams.
Might be one of the reason why Arasaka ignores V in every possible way. He a walking experiment.

Hypotheticals are always interesting to read about video game lore and the endless possibilities that can be given of
why or why not?

As to the originally posted question, who would be better, there an endless list of whos, but Yorinobu choice of Johnny might have just been a random selection among many in Mikoshi
If it targeted at as an actor: Alan Rickman would have been good
 
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