ST Grievence Thread - Post MasterMirror

[rrc]

A brief history: Post Home Coming, MO and SK dominated all factions for months and months together. ST and NR were shitty and NG was in the middle ground. After crying for months and months together slowly ST had got some buffs and was becoming better. And after a new nerfs MO became horrible and it was only SK for many months. All the decks in any tournaments were SK and ST decks would rarely surface as consistent as it had been lately. Then with poison and harmony, ST started to get stronger. Initially it was shite, but after getting good support for poison and harmony, ST became really strong.

So, the new comers who had only seen ST's glorious strength shouldln't mistake that ST was always like this. I might have created more than 20 or 25 threads whining about ST and SK (because it was like how it is now) before ST was buffed (Aelirenn was 9, Isengrim needed 5 elfs to break even, Dwarfs were shit - I mean, shittier than now, Malena didn't have zeal and was 7 provision, Treant didn't have Zeal condition, Deadeye Ambush was pathetic, Precison Strike was horrible, etc.) You get the picture right? Nothing about ST was great and almost everything was shite.

After repeated whining and whining ST became good. But there was one big loop hole. Mystic Echo. I hate that f**king ability so much. It is because of ME, ST looked so strong. And because of that image, ST started getting junker cards than all other factions and this trend had been going on for a very long time and my own ST commandos may not realize that. Lets go over what ST got in the last several updates.

Iron Judgement - Just open deck builder and filter based on Iron Judgement card set and select factions one by one. You will easily realise that ST got the weakest of all the sets. While every other faction is using the cards from IJ, ST only uses Defender and everything else is mediocre at best and even the defender is the weakest of all defenders.
MOO - Scenarios - When scenarios were introduced, every other faction got super strong scenario and ST's scenario is the weakest. While every other Scenario puts a 4 body engine, ST puts a 3 body token. Weakest Scenario in the game.
MF - (not for middle finger, but Mahakam Forge) - MF is the weakest leader introduced in the whole bunch - playing a 4P bronze card once.
Master Mirror - Weakest Evolving Card, Weakest Echo card, Weakest keyword introduced award all goes to ST. [If any MO friends are reading it and wants to say MO echo card is weaker, my kind advice is to play ST echo card and then feel the pain and come back].

And at the same time, every other faction had been getting better and better cards - all because of ME and WoB. Now, that is butchered ST is now in the drains. I don't know how many threads I will have to create and how many fevers I will have to cause, but I will fight for ST. Until then, this can be the place where injured commandos can come and get healed after getting out-numberd and butchered in game.

 

[DRK3]

Just a few sidenotes, from a "not so ST player", to balance things out

- Let's not forget one of the first metas in Gwent HC was artefact+unitless decks. And who was the leader? Eithne, who did 3pings of damage every round. I can never look at Eithne the same way again... Probably the most horrible meta, it was just awful playing against that crap, which lead to creation of the current minimum units condition.

- Your post might give the impression that ST was on a bad state for most of Homecoming, which is not really the case.
We have had 20 months (approximately) of Gwent HC thus far.
We've had ME Harmony dominate for the past 7 months.
Also in the month of Iron Judgment everyone as abusing the new dwarves, they were so OP, until they got nerfed - that's another month of ST everywhere.
Then there's the artefacts decks i've spoken about earlier, although those shared the popularity with tall monster decks at that time.
And finally, i think for a month or two after Crimson Curse, where Waters of Brokilon was released and Harmony was born, ST was strong.
So i would say around half of Gwent HC ST has been really good.

- You mention MoO, and ST got the weakest scenario, but i think the elf archetype is really strong, and they got the Radeyah play, and also those 4x 3pt tokens offer a lot of value to amazing cards like Isengrim and Yaevinn, and are harder to remove than other faction tokens

- I want to end on a more agreeable note, and i completely agree that Mahakam Forge sucks and the cards ST got in MM are the worst of the bunch

 

[Barracuda88]

For the record, outside of Spellatael we were kinda shit before Homecoming too
Miss those 20-point Dol Blathanna sentinels.

 

[Hegemonkey]

As a fairly new to the game ST main I don't know if I have enough to go off of.

At first I thought ST was the tempo class. After playing for some time it seems to me it is more about flexibility and utility. Morenn, Milana and Milaen being my favorite examples of this.

Cards that deal damage or are flexible like this seem to have lower points than provisions because of the potential value they can get.

I kinda view ST now as a tricksy combo class that is more about the sum of its parts than the individual pieces.

... I'm not the one to ask about power levels though. I always pull for the underdog. I'm the guy who waited until after the hot fix to craft Harald xD

Also, I still think Eithne is a very powerful card even if she hasn't found her place in the current meta.

 

[Gyg]

Mahakam Forge needs more Dwarf cards relaying on armour, especially golds. Buff Dwarves and it will shine.
If you manage to play four cards with bonus from armour plus Tempering you get 11 points from it plus any points absorbed by the extra armour.

 

[rrc]

Just a few sidenotes, from a "not so ST player", to balance things out

- Let's not forget one of the first metas in Gwent HC was artefact+unitless decks. And who was the leader? Eithne, who did 3pings of damage every round. I can never look at Eithne the same way again... Probably the most horrible meta, it was just awful playing against that crap, which lead to creation of the current minimum units condition.

- Your post might give the impression that ST was on a bad state for most of Homecoming, which is not really the case.
We have had 20 months (approximately) of Gwent HC thus far.
We've had ME Harmony dominate for the past 7 months.
Also in the month of Iron Judgment everyone as abusing the new dwarves, they were so OP, until they got nerfed - that's another month of ST everywhere.
Then there's the artefacts decks i've spoken about earlier, although those shared the popularity with tall monster decks at that time.
And finally, i think for a month or two after Crimson Curse, where Waters of Brokilon was released and Harmony was born, ST was strong.
So i would say around half of Gwent HC ST has been really good.

- You mention MoO, and ST got the weakest scenario, but i think the elf archetype is really strong, and they got the Radeyah play, and also those 4x 3pt tokens offer a lot of value to amazing cards like Isengrim and Yaevinn, and are harder to remove than other faction tokens

- I want to end on a more agreeable note, and i completely agree that Mahakam Forge sucks and the cards ST got in MM are the worst of the bunch

Yes, first month of HC we shouldn't even consider as it was barely a flushed out game. Slowly ST became good and was very strong for 5 to 6 months. More than half of Home coming ST was shitty. And I am afraid it may take many months for ST to stand up and be barely competitive again.

Which Scenario do you think is the weakest?
Which defender is the weakest?
Which of the new leaders introduced in the last bunch is the weakest?
Which of the new Evolving Card is the weakest?
Which of the new Echo card is the weakest?

One answer: ST. Lets reflect on that for a moment. Despite all that how did it survive? Harmony and Poison (which went hand in hand - harmony cards are the core of the poison package). Now harmony is massacred so, along with that goes Poison and what do we have left? Tier 3 Elves and MF used for Spellatel? Isn't that pathetic?

Also, I still think Eithne is a very powerful card even if she hasn't found her place in the current meta.

I wouldn't call very powerful. Dealing 2 damage is the most common thing in Gwent. I have tried extensively and rarely does the young dryads survive to give more output. If some support comes to Eithne and she gets very good, she will probably be flushed down the toilet like how Harmony was done.

 

[Hegemonkey]

Yes, first month of HC we shouldn't even consider as it was barely a flushed out game. Slowly ST became good and was very strong for 5 to 6 months. More than half of Home coming ST was shitty. And I am afraid it may take many months for ST to stand up and be barely competitive again.

Which Scenario do you think is the weakest?
Which defender is the weakest?
Which of the new leaders introduced in the last bunch is the weakest?
Which of the new Evolving Card is the weakest?
Which of the new Echo card is the weakest?

One answer: ST. Lets reflect on that for a moment. Despite all that how did it survive? Harmony and Poison (which went hand in hand - harmony cards are the core of the poison package). Now harmony is massacred so, along with that goes Poison and what do we have left? Tier 3 Elves and MF used for Spellatel? Isn't that pathetic?


I wouldn't call very powerful. Dealing 2 damage is the most common thing in Gwent. I have tried extensively and rarely does the young dryads survive to give more output. If some support comes to Eithne and she gets very good, she will probably be flushed down the toilet like how Harmony was done.

It's all about holding her until the moment is right.

This is why I think call of harmony is the best leader for her. The Gord and/or Aglais lists are bad and gimmicky for the record lol. Too low tempo and easy to bleed. I don't know what you play her in though in all fairness.

Eithne-fauve-call-forest protector-rebuke is a 31 point play
Making Eithne worth 16 points across 5 bodies with potential upside for more.

Eithne-isnegrims-fauve-call-protector- rebuke is a 36 point play.
Eithne producing 19 of those points across 6 bodies, again with potential to spawn more treants.

Both of these in 1 turn and assuming no other symbiosis. I can hit the first of those combos very consistently.

You can't underestimate the tokens either with Great oak and Cranmer being follow up options. Or the hidden value of how resilient Eithne boards are to Igni unlike WoB pre or post nerf.

Now that I actually did the math I think I'm gonna tweak my deck so I can go straight into call of the forest instead of the double tutor if I want to xD... I just got caught up with how cool it feels to play like 4 or 5 cards in one turn lol.

The fact that call of harmony provides an additional tutor also makes it one of the more powerful options for devotion decks as well. Powerful relative to devotion in general understanding the weaknesses of the archetype.


Gwent is essentially a turned based strategy game. It's not that you play your cards, it's when you play your cards. Timing is key. Eithne is rarely the first card I put on the board in round 3

While I do think Eithne is powerful, I do have to concede that symbiosis (and ST in general) feel very underpowered right now. Abandoned girl doesn't come close to other new 4p cards. Oak critters is okay, but still feels considerably weaker than other devotion cards since it's 7 point potential is so slow. Shaping nature might just be the worst gold card of the whole set. The MM kit for ST is so low tempo it feels like you just get bullied out of the game before round 1 is even over. Going first is basically a death sentence too; more than the usual disadvantage it brings with it.

 

[Breli]

Well, I came back only recently after a loooong break and missed a lot of ups and downs of my green friends. Still, I would like to chime in here.

My biggest gripe with the ST design is not so much the overall power level but the "uninspired", boring design (for the most part). The vast majority of cards are "damage this, boost that" and don't really have a lot of synergy or interesting concepts. Shaping Nature is a case in point for this.

There is so much potential that is not (yet) explored and could really form sub-archetypes that make ST interesting and unique:

- Handbuff: How many cards actually profit from Handbuff right now? Two, three? How much play do they see? The best handbuff card by far is a neutral now. Why is that? Why not turn Saskia into such a card rather than make her a "spawn engine" nobody needs? And Invigorate as a leader ability is just a joke. Why not give that 10 charges instead of this one-time use? That is an easy change and would make it flexible ...

- Traps/Ambush: After the "Eldain disaster" a year ago I get the impression that this whole sub-archetype has been abandoned altogether. Completely unplayable, doesn't do anything. Back then, I watched Pumpkn trying to make Eldain work for hours and I tried to copy that/his approaches. There was so much thinking involved. Placement, timing, mind games etc. This could be really, really fun and very unique. I understand that traps will never be anywhere close to being tier 1. The outrage on reddit would be 10 times anything we have seen so far ... Still, why not re-design/explore traps as a sub-archetype? How about some traps that don't do damage but something else? Buff something? Thin a card? Are resilient? Move enemy cards around? How about cards that change timers for traps? etc. pp.

- Movement: Again something that used to be somewhat unique for ST. How many cards actually care about movement now? Three? Do they see play? Why not have an artifact/card that heals allies whenever they move? Why are there no traps that move own/enemy cards (depending on where they are played) and do something? Why not more lateral movement options in addition to matrons?

- Dwarfs: I was off during the Iron Judgement expansion so I don't know why dwarfs were so OP back then. But now? They don't do anything. They just sit there with armour and boost/get boosted. And they force you to row stack like crazy. Thats really boring and an uninspired design! I like dwarfs! Make them cool! They stick together, right? Give some of them a "Retaliate" keyword for instance. Also "veteran" would fit for them ...

Symbiosis looks interesting and is a fresh idea. I like that. Still, I think there is a LOT of potential in the OLD concepts that could be explored.

I had some fun with a Gord Hyperthin deck last season but other than that it is really not very interesting. Elf swarm is ok I guess, but it is more of the same "damage this, boost that".

ST doesn't have to be Tier 1 for me personally. I would be happy with some fresh ideas like Symbiosis now ...

Luckily I play almost everything so I am still happy with Gwent overall. Plenty of decks I have yet to try and lots of leader abilities I barely used.

 

[rrc]

In the TLG Invitational tournament, out of 70 players I think 4 or 5 brought ST decks (and I think some of them were just memeing) and in top 16, there is one only brave soul using ST. People are using Mahakam Forge as the leader for the +1 special card for Gord without using any dwarfs - how pathetic is that? Just open Twitch and see anytime. You can't see anyone playing ST or anyone facing ST. So, I would say "Job well done CDPR team".

So, when Slama was joking 'better than deleting Harmony' I didn't understand. How is it better now? They could have deleted Harmony and given ST a better Evovling Card or Echo card or reworked and made poison detached from Harmony (for tall removal - now ST has no viable tall removal) or anything. Instead they had completely destroyed ST's viability. Stat for Season of Griffin will tell the truth.

 

[Gyg]

ST card could have an option to target more than one ally.

 

[rrc]

ST card could have an option to target more than one ally.

Not nearly close enough.. It is not about one card.. ST needs changes all over. It was surviving due to Harmony and poison and now both are killed, it is just too damn weak and not a single card change can turn things over.

 

[Gyg]

Not nearly close enough.. It is not about one card.. ST needs changes all over. It was surviving due to Harmony and poison and now both are killed, it is just too damn weak and not a single card change can turn things over.

Elves should still be strong, wonder how ST midrange fares.
Dwarves need IMHO a few more armour dependant cards - I consider Mahakam Forge a very decent leader ability design-wise.

 

[Breli]

I just spent some time in the deck builder and tried to think of a fun ST deck to play (I will definately try Hegemonkeys CoH version!) when it occured to me that we got it all wrong here. We are not playing ST in the sense of Scioa'tel. Our bad. ST stands for "Spawn Tokens". More precisley: spawn useless and boring tokens.

There are 11 cards now that spawn some kind of token. With symbiosos/yound dryads we now even have a "Meta Token Spawn" sub-archetype (which I like!). In principle this doesn't have to be bad but once again: this is just an uninspired design. Moreover, most of these tokens don't really do anything. There are only a few useful follow-up plays like Isengrim and Vernossil. To make matters worse, there are four different tokens with built-in anti-synergy.

Once again it seems that the devs don't really have any ideas for ST or don't want to implement them. Eleyas needs a rework after 1.5 years of complete unplayability? Lets make him spawn tokens! Saskia needs a rework? Lets make her spawn tokens! Eldains ability doesn't work? Hmm, lets have him spawn tokens maybe? Who wants to take any bets on what Eibhear Hattori is going to be? Spawn a token and give it 1 armor?

Spoiler: What card?

For those of you who don't know, "Eibhear Hattori" is acutally a card! Trust me! It really is there in the deck builder. Go check! You can only see it in the deck builder though, since it has never been played by anyone in two years. Thats why you don't know it ...

No other faction has this many spawn token cards. Not even monsters. Syndicate has more cards but 6 out of those don't really count since they do something useful or have other functions (Penance, Collusion, Azar Javed, Savolla, ...)

ST just means "Spawn Tokens" at this point. NG and SK beware! Our mighty 2 point tokens will confuse your owerpowered bronzes and golds so much that you have to auto forfeit! And don't you dare to take out our mighty defender with your 4P bronze card ... we will just spawn more cannon fodder.

On the bright side: The devs have promised to make the tokens premuim one day. We can admire all of our four different tokens in their full animated glory before they die! And reddit will go ballistic once again because ST gets more animated tokens than other factions. How unfair!

I really hope that ST gets a re-design at one point like NR got back then. The fragmentation of the faction is an issue and the lack of ideas/unique concepts is just sad.

 

[rrc]

Dear @Breli I have to give it to you for the acronym SpawnTokens . I am a hardcore ST player, and even I didn't understand what ST stood for . ST doesn't have really strong bronze engines (there is one, who is kept intentionally bad.. Sentinels - the only engine which supports movement archetype. If he was in any other faction, he wouldn't have the row lock restrictions). After harmony nerf ST doesn't have decent tall removal too (all poisons are harmony linked). Hopefully in 7.1, which I believe we will get in the beginning of August, ST gets something which will make it relevant with the current power level of other factions. Lets see.

 

[Breli]

... Admittedly, I was going off on a rant there but I couldn't help it. On a more constructive note: There are so many things that could be done to make ST more interesting/versatile. In addition to the ones mentioned above and by others:

- Resistance Fighter archetype: SK has warriors, NG and NR have soldiers, right? Why not have a "Fighter" tag in ST with cross-tribe synergy between elfs, dwarfs, dryads? That could actually be a tool to overcome the faction segmentation that usually forces you to go all-in with elfs or dwarfs.

- Spellatell: I understand that was a thing back in beta. It also fits the lore quite well. Why not bring that back?

Tall removal is definately missing. Bringing heatwave means no critters and weaker symbiosis with Eithne.

I am sure some overhaul will happen with ST at one point in time. But I don't think the August update will be much more than a balance patch.

Let's go and spawn some tokens in the meantime

 

[EnduringConviction]

For the record, outside of Spellatael we were kinda shit before Homecoming too
Miss those 20-point Dol Blathanna sentinels.

Let’s not forgot about how terribly unfair and [...] elven wardancer was in pre-homecoming by being able to maintain card advantage round 2 via mulligan

 

[Barracuda88]

Let’s not forgot about how terribly unfair and [...] elven wardancer was in pre-homecoming by being able to maintain card advantage round 2 via mulligan

Ah, I loved that card. Even though it did nothing for the faction's winrates, all the people whining about it made it seem like we really had some kind of an advantage. The good old days

 

[Slizzl]

Row exclusive harmony really doesn't work well. I hope the devs will reevaluate this approach.

 

[temeteus_fin]

I found my cap wall at level 10 with ST. And ofcourse this new patch hit my decks hard. Can't find a way to beat those mf spy-decks and they are coming constantly. These meta-decks brake my will. Maybe I just to quit for now and wait some balance. I really wanted to work my skills with ST and tried so many combinations. WR dropped to horrible levels.

 

[rrc]

I found my cap wall at level 10 with ST. And ofcourse this new patch hit my decks hard. Can't find a way to beat those mf spy-decks and they are coming constantly. These meta-decks brake my will. Maybe I just to quit for now and wait some balance. I really wanted to work my skills with ST and tried so many combinations. WR dropped to horrible levels.

At this moment, to win with ST, you need to think and plan more and have better luck in draws and coin-flip. But at rank 10, you should be able to win better with ST. Hang in there commando!