ST Grievence Thread - Post MasterMirror

[Breli]

I found my cap wall at level 10 with ST. And ofcourse this new patch hit my decks hard. Can't find a way to beat those mf spy-decks and they are coming constantly. These meta-decks brake my will. Maybe I just to quit for now and wait some balance. I really wanted to work my skills with ST and tried so many combinations. WR dropped to horrible levels.

RRC is right, ST decks will struggle now. Nevertheless, some more climbing should be possible. The climb will come to a halt in the "grinding ranks 7-1" though.

NG spies is really, really flexible and fun to play. I really like these decks. Also assimilate looks super fun. Beating that with ST will be very very tough. Your best bet is probably some Symbiosis/Gord Hybrid with either Mahakam Forge or Precision Strike. Alternatively CoH as suggested by Hegemonkey above. I don't see anything else in ST that might keep up.

 

[Barracuda88]

RRC is right, ST decks will struggle now. Nevertheless, some more climbing should be possible. The climb will come to a halt in the "grinding ranks 7-1" though.

NG spies is really, really flexible and fun to play. I really like these decks. Also assimilate looks super fun. Beating that with ST will be very very tough. Your best bet is probably some Symbiosis/Gord Hybrid with either Mahakam Forge or Precision Strike. Alternatively CoH as suggested by Hegemonkey above. I don't see anything else in ST that might keep up.

Eh, idk about all that. I just recently went 17-2-1 from 3 to pro with a pretty murderous elf deck Only ran into a couple NG on the way, though.

 

[DRK3]

Eh, idk about all that. I just recently went 17-2-1 from 3 to pro with a pretty murderous elf deck Only ran into a couple NG on the way, though.

Agreed, im constantly saying elf decks are really strong, now post-expansion they're very likely the best ST has to offer.
Vernossiel and Eleyas provide so much pointspam, Aelirenn thins the deck and provides quite the tempo, and Isengrim is basically a Triss TK+Bone Talisman for only 8 prov. Not to mention bomb heavers are less played now, since dominating SK has no artefacts, so less risk of scenario getting destroyed.

The elf deck is not known for his control options, but you dont need devotion so nothing stopping you from using Heatwave, locks, thunders, Yrden/Ignis, since the only 10+ prov are usually Vernossiel and scenario, so plenty of prov for a counter of choice.

 

[Hegemonkey]

Agreed, im constantly saying elf decks are really strong, now post-expansion they're very likely the best ST has to offer.
Vernossiel and Eleyas provide so much pointspam, Aelirenn thins the deck and provides quite the tempo, and Isengrim is basically a Triss TK+Bone Talisman for only 8 prov. Not to mention bomb heavers are less played now, since dominating SK has no artefacts, so less risk of scenario getting destroyed.

The elf deck is not known for his control options, but you dont need devotion so nothing stopping you from using Heatwave, locks, thunders, Yrden/Ignis, since the only 10+ prov are usually Vernossiel and scenario, so plenty of prov for a counter of choice.

I can verify your elf hype! xD

Interestingly enough, in the recent invitational, the only ST list to reach top 16 was an Elf Symbiosis hybrid list.

 

[Celadyl]

what is quite astonishing to me is the way the ST subfactions are represented in the game. arent all of them supposed to be pushed to the edge by human expansion? the elves are on the brink of extinction, the dwarves live mostly secluded just like the dryads who are very few in number. both elves and dryads have a very guerilla style kind of warfare because their numbers are weak. yet all of them seem to be represented by swarmy, rowstacking and mostly non interactive archetypes. the old eldain leader ability was quite horrible bc the traps itself suck but at least it was very fitting for elves to fight with traps and such. like it was said many times in this thread, the faction design is just plain boring at this point, although I kind of like the idea behind symbiosis.
the thing that needs work the most are ST bronzes imo but that's just my 2 cents.

 

[4RM3D]

what is quite astonishing to me is the way the ST subfactions are represented in the game. [...]

Keeping the game balanced is already an arduous task, never mind keeping it lore accurate...
Lore Inconsistencies with Cards and Mechanics

the old eldain leader ability was quite horrible bc the traps itself suck

Until he got buffed and wrecked almost everything. The reason he never became popular was because the Trap deck was one of the hardest decks to properly play.

 

[Hegemonkey]

Until he got buffed and wrecked almost everything. The reason he never became popular was because the Trap deck was one of the hardest decks to properly play.

Also because the effectiveness of traps is inversely proportional with your opponent's skill level.

Basically traps are bad because good players know what they are and how to best play around them.

 

[Celadyl]

Keeping the game balanced is already an arduous task, never mind keeping it lore accurate...
Lore Inconsistencies with Cards and Mechanics

I understand that not everything can and has to be lore accurate, I was rather referring to the ST archetypes being so similar in nature as a whole. ST in general has been about filling your board quickly for quite some time now, was the same with double waters etc. I'm just a bit sad that interesting mechanics like movement werent further explored and all of the decks feel rather dull to me. I mean, did anyone actually have fun playing ME harmony after 7 months or so?

 

[4RM3D]

Also because the effectiveness of traps is inversely proportional with your opponent's skill level.

Basically traps are bad because good players know what they are and how to best play around them.

Yeah... no. You make an interesting point, but it's not entirely true. When both players are pros, it elevates the game to a whole new level that's closer to a game of poker. With new players, you cannot bluff because they cannot take the hint, but that's not the case with pros. This aspect of bluffing is sorely lacking nowadays as there's no mechanic to support it. Even the old traps are gone because -heck- I don't even know why CDPR scrapped those too.

Anyway, the effectiveness of traps is a bit of a roller-coaster depending on your skills and the opponent's. Skill beats luck, right?

 

[Slizzl]

Agreed, im constantly saying elf decks are really strong, now post-expansion they're very likely the best ST has to offer.
Vernossiel and Eleyas provide so much pointspam, Aelirenn thins the deck and provides quite the tempo, and Isengrim is basically a Triss TK+Bone Talisman for only 8 prov. Not to mention bomb heavers are less played now, since dominating SK has no artefacts, so less risk of scenario getting destroyed.

The elf deck is not known for his control options, but you dont need devotion so nothing stopping you from using Heatwave, locks, thunders, Yrden/Ignis, since the only 10+ prov are usually Vernossiel and scenario, so plenty of prov for a counter of choice.

I tried this out just now and it worked well a few matches until NG and their spies filled my board making me unable to play my two last cards which would've won me the game. So annoying.

 

[Hegemonkey]

Yeah... no. You make an interesting point, but it's not entirely true. When both players are pros, it elevates the game to a whole new level that's closer to a game of poker. With new players, you cannot bluff because they cannot take the hint, but that's not the case with pros. This aspect of bluffing is sorely lacking nowadays as there's no mechanic to support it. Even the old traps are gone because -heck- I don't even know why CDPR scrapped those too.

Anyway, the effectiveness of traps is a bit of a roller-coaster depending on your skills and the opponent's. Skill beats luck, right?

How many pro players do you see playing traps? Skill, bluffs or reads aside... they play for no immediate tempo and most of them aren't worth their provision cost. The only trap that you could argue is good is crushing trap. Even then, telegraphing your aoe isn't really worth the one provision you save for not running lacerate instead.

The more skilled the player, the less effective the trap is against them, you basically agreed with my point there anyways so I dont know what the "yea.. no" was all about lol... This combined with the lack of tempo, despite the power level of current traps, is why the mechanic as a whole is bad. Traps work on newbies because they play into them not knowing the pool. A good player on ladder will just play around all of them until they narrow down what it is. So traps get worse the higher you climb on ladder. You can't play enough traps at one time to overwhelm someone who understands the game. In a tourney with open decklists; running traps is just suicide.

Sure good players will always play better around your cards, but you have more control over how and when you use other types of threats. Traps are reactive cards that leave your opponent more time to prepare their counterplays than any other kind of removal. Ironically leaving less room to bluff in the process. Take incinerating trap vs nature's rebuke as an example. If you play a trap, your opponent isn't going to play a good engine into it. However, if they play an engine you can always be threatening to have a rebuke in hand to shut it down.

You don't need mechanics to support bluffing. Card games are inherently about information as well as misinformation. So taking a line of play to ensinuate you are setting up for a card you don't actually have in hand can be considered a bluff. There is plenty of room to be triksy.

 

[Roi_Barbichette]

First, RRC, I must say I'm happy to see that your support to ST is constant. Keep up the good work fellow Scoiata'el.

As a ST main myself, I clearly find this expansion disappointing. I have no problem with the fact that Harmony archetype was nerfed to the ground. It dominated the meta during 7 months, so it can sit out for a few months right now.

But I would have hoped that the new ST archetype was effective. Unfortunately, not only Symbiosis is uneffective in this meta, but moreover, it is the perfect prey for the strongest decks (Nilfgaard spies and of course Skellige Warriors).

From rank 7 to 3, playing Symbiosis was fun. I mainly fought Wild Hunt decks which were beatable. Then I crossed the way of NG and SK and the fun suddenly disappeared.

I think Symbiosis deserves a topic of its own where to discuss its major flaws. So I won't talk too much about this archetype here.

I would rather talk about the main problem of ST, which is in my opinion rather the same since closed beta : their different archetypes don't work well together.

They are hard to combine for one simple reason : they are mainly racial (Dwarfs, Elves, Dryads/Symbiosis) or the opposite (Harmony).

All the rest (Move, Handbuff) are not fully fleshed out archetypes but sub-archetypes.

Therefore, usually, each new expansion benefits to only one ST archetype (Dwarves, Elves or Dryads). Harmony was an exception because of its very nature ; it could benefit from almost any new cards. But Harmony is now too weak to benefit from anything.

The last two expansions illustrate this problem well. The elf scenario only works in an elf deck. Eithne evolving card only works in a symbiosis deck. Combining these two cards is really complicated.

In the meantime, NG can astonishingly combine its Masquerade ball and Evolving Usurper. Moreover, several of its archetypes (aristocrats, spies, assimilate) work well together.

I think the solution for ST would be to promote its sub-archetypes (Handbuff, Move), so that they combine well with racial or harmony archetypes.

I remember a time when a Handbuff deck with a few Harmony cards was pretty effective (during Crimson Curse). But for the moment, Handbuff is unplayable.

So, that's what I hope for the future of ST, more interactions between its different archetypes / sub-archetypes.

Also, I agree With DRK3 : right now, Elf archetype is the most effective. It appears that with a few tech cards, it can counter almost any top tier/annoying decks.

But this is rather frustrating because I already played this deck during the last 6 months. I wanted to try the new archetype, or at least include some of the new cards in my elf deck.

But with the exception of oneiromancy, I don't see anything of interest.

 

[4RM3D]

How many pro players do you see playing traps?

None, after the nerf. But I was talking before that. Traps were incredibly strong and I have played it with some success in pro-rank, for a while.

The more skilled the player, the less effective the trap is against them [...]

No, with that specific point, I disagree. It's not a lineair line. When both players are pros, the game changes completely, like I said, and you'll have to play the trap deck differently. Almost no other mechanic in-game had the same impact.

So taking a line of play to ensinuate you are setting up for a card you don't actually have in hand can be considered a bluff.

Yes, and there is almost no pay-off, unless you are going for a Hail Mary because otherwise you cannot win. There was much more bluffing going on during the early days of Gwent.

 

[Hegemonkey]

None, after the nerf. But I was talking before that. Traps were incredibly strong and I have played it with some success in pro-rank, for a while.



No, with that specific point, I disagree. It's not a lineair line. When both players are pros, the game changes completely, like I said, and you'll have to play the trap deck differently. Almost no other mechanic in-game had the same impact.



Yes, and there is almost no pay-off, unless you are going for a Hail Mary because otherwise you cannot win. There was much more bluffing going on during the early days of Gwent.

Bluffing is still effective and not always for a hail-mary. You can bait a pass or resources, you just have to be clever and have good timing. It may be more subtle, but bluffing will always be in any card game.

Traps are bad and in order to be playable they have to be Overpowered like you say they once were... Sure you can play a trap deck better, but traps are just a poor alternative to other forms of removal. Just the act of playing a trap gives your opponent information that you have a trap. This allows them to play around it more effectively than other removal. A reactive tool that has to be played proactively is a bad mechanic. The information you give by playing a trap ironically limits your bluff potential.


You can nitpick the solid argument I made to try and make some kind of point, but it is linear in this case whether you like it or not.
We will have to disagree here

 

[Barracuda88]

"Beware the Scoiatael ambush and trap tactics!" - CDPR, Gwent loading screen.
Oh, really?
Seriously though, traps ARE fun to play. They just need a bit of support. Like Hattori hasn't been playable since like, ever. The trouble is, there is not going to be any support, because CDPR clearly hates "traps and ambush tactics." That loading screen message should be replaced with "Beware of Scoiatael and their tokens!"

 

[Roi_Barbichette]

The fact is that ST is certainly the faction which has the most archetypes : Traps, Dryads, Elves, Dwarfs, Spelltael, Move, Harmony, Handbuff, Control... and at last Symbiosis.

I think ST is the only faction this season who got a totally new archetype. I have sometimes the feeling that CDPR doesn't really know what to do with ST.

We have a lot of half archetypes, but only a few are fully fleshed out. Even the Elf archetype, before Merchants of Ofir, was incomplete.

Since it appears that CDPR does not want to support a full Trap archetype anymore, maybe the traps could be used to support other archetypes ? Right now, there is one trap which works well with Move archetype, but that's all.

 

[Jollyrogerxberg]

Finally at least one faction back to original W3 gwent. Scoia has no gameplan anymore. Now with harmony gone one realises (again): no engines. Funny heh how dryad ranger was like the best bronce for half a year and now is total crap without changing the card.

should i just go and wait or keep on trying to make something work? right now i'm only playing angry destructive elfes

 

[Sailears]

I've not played for a few months, but getting back into the game again and yes it's really sad what happened to Harmony...

All because of Mystic Echo + Waters problems, they went and wrecked the entire archetype. There are other ways this could have been changed - eg separate the Graveyard into rounds (1, 2 and 3), and have Mystic Echo only able to pull a ST special card from a previous round, not able to resurrect in the same round. Round 1 it could simply play a ST special from deck.

Then they could fix Harmony - which was pretty much fine with every other leader ability (aside from individual card potential nerfs).

Anyway... aside from that I'm actually exploring an interesting Movement+Poison deck.

Guerilla Tactics, with all the ST poison bronzes and Maraal, as well as Triss/Lacerate/RNR, and thanks to Oneiromancy for consistency.
Reason being - Maraal can be unbricked if moved to ranged row, so only counter is removal or lock. And Forest Whisperers can have both benefits - use on Melee for initial poison then eg Malena to pull back and give her or something a Shield.

Still working on refining the deck, and currently only at r10 due to not playing since several months, but believe the overall principle has some mileage.

Also I think nobody expects eg Maraal with ST, especially in a movement deck. It's quite fun to play, but yeah, still a number of cards that I may change depending how things go with more games.

 

[Jollyrogerxberg]

Desteny of a rebel force. As long as your opponents are supprised and unorganized you have an edge but agaist the brute force of full fledget armys...what good you can do?

Post automatically merged: Jul 23, 2020

Agreed, im constantly saying elf decks are really strong, now post-expansion they're very likely the best ST has to offer.
Vernossiel and Eleyas provide so much pointspam, Aelirenn thins the deck and provides quite the tempo, and Isengrim is basically a Triss TK+Bone Talisman for only 8 prov. Not to mention bomb heavers are less played now, since dominating SK has no artefacts, so less risk of scenario getting destroyed.

The elf deck is not known for his control options, but you dont need devotion so nothing stopping you from using Heatwave, locks, thunders, Yrden/Ignis, since the only 10+ prov are usually Vernossiel and scenario, so plenty of prov for a counter of choice.

I actually sorted out eleyas and cry sad tears of Vernossials lost melee potential but the swarm is punished so hard. Forest Protector seems a good choise for now and a *slam* trap for the boats and demons. Some of our green sisters fall to it, too.

 

[Sailears]

On a separate note I think Symbiosis is kind of being given as a replacement for effectively deleting Harmony, especially as it is Dryad centric which is where Harmony started off.

I think possibly Harmony could even be completely removed as an archetype - it's doesn't make much sense even in terms of lore, and is pretty one dimensional in terms of gameplay.

They could focus Symbiosis for Dryads, and maybe shuffle the current Harmony cards into different existing archetypes, replace the tags and so on.

And then change Call of Harmony to do something completely different - no idea what.

I dunno, is just a thought - maybe completely wrong and they just need to dial back the harsh nerfs that arose largely because of ME/WoB interaction.