ST passive (balance tweak / redesign [which might be OP])

[RickMelethron]

ST passive (balance tweak / redesign [which might be OP])

while going first on two rounds isn't that big of a deal, "winning" the round-1 coin flip against ST is quite a nightmare since you'll (realistically) have to start all 3 rounds. a simple balance fix to this would be if the ST player always got to start on round 1 (with the ability to use the passive, if so desired)
basically, the same thing as it currently is, but the ST player always "wins" the initial coin flip.

for the proposed redesign; i always thought making your opponent start the round was quite a boring passive... ST always struck me as the faction of consistency, with francesca being able to redraw cards and brouver hoog playing a target silver from the deck. the idea i had would be this: "after the mulligan phase (in round 1) you have to option to swap a gold card in your hand with one in your deck"

to elaborate on how it works: let's say you have saskia and igni in your hand, with isengrim and aglais being in your deck. you can choose to swap one of your golds for one in the deck; IE, swapping igni for isengrim.
the word "swap" means that the card you tossed will go to the same place in your deck as the card you picked; so if isengrim was the 9th card in your deck, igni will take its place as the 9th card in your deck.
in essence, you don't get more chances to draw gold cards; you just get to "decide" one of the golds you're going to draw.

but if it's still too powerful it can simply be altered from gold to silver card; (i just didn't see a point in doing it for silvers since it's the effect of brouver hoog)
or make the card you get a random one from the deck (as if it were a mulligan that exchanges a gold card for another)

 

[Shonendo]

No.

 

[RickMelethron]

No.

but why is an archgriffin weaker than a griffin!?

 

[Riven-Twain]

why is an archgriffin weaker than a griffin!?

Insufficient arch-support, perhaps?

 

[nhk3]

I think a better redesign would be to have the current ability be usable only on R1 or after a round you've lost. That way the current "You get to start all 3 rounds, enjoy" would be neutered.
Another option could be "Choose to start first one round per game.".
Unfortunately both of these take it from the best faction ability to being the worst. Honestly something so broken is nigh impossible to balance.

 

[Nimraphel]

How would it work in the mirror? As it is now?

Problem is that it also ties in with the Milva + Roach synergy (which arguably is Milva's only use right now)... I'm not a fan of the ST faction ability, or the faction as a whole. I like that it is reactive, consistent and has a strong element of control, but right now it's oppressive. I don't know if the answer is buffing the other factions or nerfing ST - I personally don't like nerfing as it too often ends up gutting the subject of the nerf rather than merely adjusting it - but right now ST has way, way too many answers for pretty much any situation.

 

[Nimraphel]

Another option could be to play one non-gold card as an Ambush card, which flips and resolves at the end of the round when the ST player passes. It probably presents its own set of problems, but the current faction ability has got to be severely limiting and constricting design space for ST.

 

[SkippyHole]

There just needs to be less reliance on card advantage in the game in general. Ideally, the option of going first or second in the passive needs to be an actual choice.

 

[ibilibertas]

No.

I actually found that answer funny...

 

[nhk3]

There just needs to be less reliance on card advantage in the game in general. Ideally, the option of going first or second in the passive needs to be an actual choice.

This is impossible due to the nature of Gwent. Since there's no health pool the 2 things you can do are - buff your units or remove/de-buff enemy units. With this type of gameplay being able to act last without the opponent being able to react is very important as you can:
a) save your strongest card for last play when the opponent can't counter it
b) save your best removal for last play to nuke your opponent's board
For this to change the entire concept of the game needs to be reworked, which means it wouldn't be Gwent anymore.

On the topic of ST ability: it definitely needs to be the one to adjust, along with the Monsters ability, because their power level is just too high at the moment.
One gets CA by making the opponent go first always, the other by getting a huge carryover.

 

[DMaster2]

while going first on two rounds isn't that big of a deal, "winning" the round-1 coin flip against ST is quite a nightmare since you'll (realistically) have to start all 3 rounds. a simple balance fix to this would be if the ST player always got to start on round 1 (with the ability to use the passive, if so desired)
basically, the same thing as it currently is, but the ST player always "wins" the initial coin flip.

I like this idea. Currently going first round 1 against ST means usually that you lost even before starting the game. Forcing them to go first round 1 would alleviate this issue while keeping the current flavor.
Oh and fix Milva. She shouldn't be able to return stuff only on your side. Either return 2 units or zero.

 

[SkippyHole]

This is impossible due to the nature of Gwent. Since there's no health pool the 2 things you can do are - buff your units or remove/de-buff enemy units. With this type of gameplay being able to act last without the opponent being able to react is very important as you can:
a) save your strongest card for last play when the opponent can't counter it
b) save your best removal for last play to nuke your opponent's board
For this to change the entire concept of the game needs to be reworked, which means it wouldn't be Gwent anymore.

On the topic of ST ability: it definitely needs to be the one to adjust, along with the Monsters ability, because their power level is just too high at the moment.
One gets CA by making the opponent go first always, the other by getting a huge carryover.

I agree. But you can make it less pronounced by having fewer massive powerswing cards. Cards like scorch, weather, d-bomb that instantly destroy all that's been build up all round feel very unfair as a last card. There should be more reward for stopping your opponent's plays early, rather than letting them build up and build up and then countering them as the last card.

The other way round I'm not too annoyed with. Playing a card like Eleyas or some other instant-huge strength card means it can't be countered, sure, but you've had time to build your strength up so it doesn't matter too much. Granted, that isn't always possible, but I prefer it that way to putting it down early and just getting it countered straight away.

The monsters passive is an easy fix - the kept unit is reset to base strength at the end of the round. Granted, this screws up Eredin decks a bit but oh well, not many people run those now anyway.

 

[Nimraphel]

The monsters passive is an easy fix - the kept unit is reset to base strength at the end of the round. Granted, this screws up Eredin decks a bit but oh well, not many people run those now anyway.

It would really turn the Monster faction uninteresting though. Right now there's a high skill-ceiling and reward for planning your round ahead in order to maximize the keep, just like there are numerous ways for an opponent to mess up the one keep. It's an elegant faction passive in my opinion, offering high-risk/high reward with numerous transparent counterplay options. If you only count base strength it becomes absolutely irrelevant which card was played last, as we're talking minimal difference. In turn, Monsters become dumbed down, the skill ceiling lowered and the passive uninteresting.

 

[Redcoat2012]

Forcing Scoia first would somewhat effectively render ST without a faction passive. It would turn into Scoia having to use it upfront. The disadvantage for going first (you're playing on your opponents terms) is bad enough, forcing it onto ST would really kick them.

Realistically the Scoia passive is +1 CA at best, if Scoia goes first in round one, at best they get to play the last card of round 3. These things wouldn't be nearly as problematic as they are if it wasn't for weather effects having such monumentally high instant power swings.

 

[Nimraphel]

Forcing Scoia first would somewhat effectively render ST without a faction passive. It would turn into Scoia having to use it upfront. The disadvantage for going first (you're playing on your opponents terms) is bad enough, forcing it onto ST would really kick them.

Realistically the Scoia passive is +1 CA at best, if Scoia goes first in round one, at best they get to play the last card of round 3. These things wouldn't be nearly as problematic as they are if it wasn't for weather effects having such monumentally high instant power swings.

Play Milva + Roach, negate the problem of going first in round 1.

Either way, if ST doesn't go first, the ST Passive is much, much worse than 1 CA...

Can I ask which mmr level you're playing in? I haven't encountered a single weather effect for the past week or so. Not even the odd Aeromancy. In a meta where Scoia'tael, Dagon and Henselt are the most used leaders and factions, weather is really not in a good place at all.

 

[Redcoat2012]

Play Milva + Roach, negate the problem of going first in round 1.

Either way, if ST doesn't go first, the ST Passive is much, much worse than 1 CA...

Can I ask which mmr level you're playing in? I haven't encountered a single weather effect for the past week or so. Not even the odd Aeromancy. In a meta where Scoia'tael, Dagon and Henselt are the most used leaders and factions, weather is really not in a good place at all.

I got to rank 14 so low mmr I guess? 3.9k range I think, I stopped playing quickly after the shackles change. CDPR are changing weather to something very similar to what I had suggested previously though which fixes the instant power swings that had defined the whole "get the last say on the last round and blast their strongest row with aeromancy", strategy that for a time defined the higher MMR's. They're also getting rid of faction passives. Not really much left to discuss now.

 

[Nimraphel]

I got to rank 14 so low mmr I guess? 3.9k range I think, I stopped playing quickly after the shackles change. CDPR are changing weather to something very similar to what I had suggested previously though which fixes the instant power swings that had defined the whole "get the last say on the last round and blast their strongest row with aeromancy", strategy that for a time defined the higher MMR's. They're also getting rid of faction passives. Not really much left to discuss now.

I think you've explained it yourself there; you stopped quickly after the shackles changes, which is when weather fell decisively out of favour, to the point of no longer being used, at least not at high-end (4800-5500 mmr).

I am glad they got rid of passives, and even more glad they changed Saskia and, assumingly, Isengrim; to me, they were the key problematic cards in ST.

 

[Redcoat2012]

I think you've explained it yourself there; you stopped quickly after the shackles changes, which is when weather fell decisively out of favour, to the point of no longer being used, at least not at high-end (4800-5500 mmr).

I am glad they got rid of passives, and even more glad they changed Saskia and, assumingly, Isengrim; to me, they were the key problematic cards in ST.

Weather was being gated by first light, gating it however didn't change the simple problems that weather produced. The old weather system tied heavily into the card advantage problem too, now that weather doesn't cause the instant swings I imagine CA cards would probably get readdressed, kinda going to miss faction passives but It makes perfect sense all the same to get rid of them.

Back when I stopped playing 4.8k was the very top of the leader boards so I'm not sure why it has creeped so high today, it seems to just keep getting higher and I thought the MMR elo system was meant to have a flat cap due to diminishing returns. At the time I was in the top 2k players but everyone else seemed to be playing net decks at that point anyway, nothing but Radovid Control and Nekker Decks, so boring, much of the reason I quit was because it felt like only 10 players in the top were making decks and several thousand players were copying them.

Ironically I used both of those cards in my ST deck, seems strange that they would be what you would highlight, Saskia I get, you could make that thing 1 strength and the effect would still perform on highly built boards, the issue then compounds further with tonnes of Neophytes, but Isengrim had been neutered by the Shackles when that was reworked and was pretty fudged during the Radovid meta before it.

 

[Nimraphel]

Weather was being gated by first light, gating it however didn't change the simple problems that weather produced. The old weather system tied heavily into the card advantage problem too, now that weather doesn't cause the instant swings I imagine CA cards would probably get readdressed, kinda going to miss faction passives but It makes perfect sense all the same to get rid of them.

Back when I stopped playing 4.8k was the very top of the leader boards so I'm not sure why it has creeped so high today, it seems to just keep getting higher and I thought the MMR elo system was meant to have a flat cap due to diminishing returns. At the time I was in the top 2k players but everyone else seemed to be playing net decks at that point anyway, nothing but Radovid Control and Nekker Decks, so boring, much of the reason I quit was because it felt like only 10 players in the top were making decks and several thousand players were copying them.

Ironically I used both of those cards in my ST deck, seems strange that they would be what you would highlight, Saskia I get, you could make that thing 1 strength and the effect would still perform on highly built boards, the issue then compounds further with tonnes of Neophytes, but Isengrim had been neutered by the Shackles when that was reworked and was pretty fudged during the Radovid meta before it.

Shackles were hardly ever seen at high-end ladder; every card is so valuable that nobody can really afford a potentially dead car, on top of being no power swing at all. A few ran Cleaver, but it's a small minority as Cyprian is a much more efficient Nekker counter. Point is, Shackles is not ever used; vs. MS, you have no gold card you want to demote, and the loss of tempo is too big to afford it even for Nekkers (Cyprian Wiley is the only used card there). In the ST mirror, you might pull it too late after Isengrim has already spiralled out of control and achieved value beyond what golds usually do.
Hence Isengrim giving enormous reach.

I haven't faced any Radovids in a long time. It's a decent tournament option, but I would not consider Radovid better than his alternatives for ladder play. He's pretty weak against ST, and ST is the predominant deck in the 5k+ bracket. I must admit I cannot recognize what you describe - see the attached picture of my Gwent tracker list for the past week. The amount of ST is insane.

 

[Redcoat2012]

Shackles were hardly ever seen at high-end ladder; every card is so valuable that nobody can really afford a potentially dead car, on top of being no power swing at all. A few ran Cleaver, but it's a small minority as Cyprian is a much more efficient Nekker counter. Point is, Shackles is not ever used; vs. MS, you have no gold card you want to demote, and the loss of tempo is too big to afford it even for Nekkers (Cyprian Wiley is the only used card there). In the ST mirror, you might pull it too late after Isengrim has already spiralled out of control and achieved value beyond what golds usually do.
Hence Isengrim giving enormous reach.

I haven't faced any Radovids in a long time. It's a decent tournament option, but I would not consider Radovid better than his alternatives for ladder play. He's pretty weak against ST, and ST is the predominant deck in the 5k+ bracket. I must admit I cannot recognize what you describe - see the attached picture of my Gwent tracker list for the past week. The amount of ST is insane.

Again I quit over 8 weeks ago, and I'm referencing times earlier than that from the patches before hand.