Starfield! Spaaaaaaace...ladders.

[LeKill3rFou]

Gimme a good story with good characters and an open world with purpose. In The Witcher 3, it feels like everything is full of meaning, even the smallest things.

I didn't compare with CDPR games, in which stories/writing/characters "play" in a whole other category... That was never the strong point of Bethesda games, never.
But if you search on the forum, there are quite a lot of players who like simply the "sandbox" side that Bethesda games offer, something that CDPR games don't.
Indeed, I prefer CDPR games and by far, but I will buy Starfield, because even if it lack of good stories, good characters, good writing, good "whatever", it will be good enough to spend hundreds of enjoyable hours... (I won't buy it expecting a good story, that's for sure...but I expect bugs, a bunch^^)

 

[The_Blacks]

I didn't compare with CDPR games, in which stories/writing/characters "play" in a whole other category... That was never the strong point of Bethesda games, never.
But if you search on the forum, there are quite a lot of players who like simply the "sandbox" side that Bethesda games offer, something that CDPR games don't.
Indeed, I prefer CDPR games and by far, but I will buy Starfield, because even if it lack of good stories, good characters, good writing, good "whatever", it will be good enough to spend hundreds of enjoyable hours... (I won't buy it expecting a good story, that's for sure...but I expect bugs, a bunch^^)

Some of us need more (in terms of writing/characters), but TW3 has the sandbox/open world aspect (in this case the latter), just not empty, lifeless and purposeless like in Bethesda. It should be mentioned that Skyrim came years before TW3 so at the time it had no rival in the open world genre, but we've come a long, long way since then

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Some of us need more, but TW3 has the sandbox/open world aspect, just not empty, lifeless and purposeless like in Bethesda. It should be mentioned that Skyrim came years before TW3 so at the time it had no rival in the open world genre, but we've come a long, long way since then

Ok, so if you consider that TW3 offer/have a "sandbox open-world", I don't think there is any point to me to argue more, because we clearly don't have the same definition of what a "sandbox open-word" is
(Just for example, TW3 is not a sandbox, Skyrim/Fallout are. Cyberpunk is not, GTA/RDR2 are).
And I don't say that negatively against TW3, it's one on my favorite game ever... But after finishing TW3 again after the next gen update (would be the fourth times since I'm on the forum^^) and while waiting the next CDPR game, I will play other games and Starfield will be one of them, for sure

 

[GrimReaper801]

Some of us need more, but TW3 has the sandbox/open world aspect, just not empty, lifeless and purposeless like in Bethesda.

Wait, what? TW3 is a sandbox? You're going as far as saying it's better than Bethesda's?

Even Skyrim isn't a pure sandbox but it's certainly a far better sandbox than TW3 because TW3, or any CDPR game for that matter, isn't meant to be a sandbox. At all. They're story driven games set in an open world with a few, rather typical, open world elements. The closest element TW3 has to a sandbox game is Gwent. A pure sandbox gives you no real objective and let's you do anything in it's world. Even Skyrim doesn't fit the bill perfetly but TW3 isn't even close to that.

In Bethesda's games, you can be whoever you want and almost whatever you want. From your "morality" to your fighting style all the way to emergent gameplay ideas. Few things scream immersive sim/sandbox than dumping a cauldron on a merchant's head so you can steal everything they own without repercussion as stupid as that sounds.

TW3 is an open world RPG. That's it. An amazingly good one but it is not meant to compete with Skyrim and vice versa. They are different product aiming to satisfy different interests.

I also find the "some of us need more" statement to ring of elitism. As in "them peons are satisfied with little, their betters need more". Not saying that's how you meant it, just how it sounds. Especially when the reality isn't that it's more, it's that it's different and not what you're looking for.

Simply put, there are things Bethesda does far better than CDPR and things CDPR does far better than Bethesda, if what you want is a story driven game with deep writing then Bethesda's games aren't what you're looking for but it certainly doesn't mean that CDPR's game are "more" because of their better writing. Just like if what you're looking for is a sandbox RPG that'll allow you to be pretty much anything you want (within reason considering the game world) then Bethesda's game are what you're looking for but still not "more" than CDPR's games. Just different games meant to scratch entirely different itches.

It should be mentioned that Skyrim came years before TW3 so at the time it had no rival in the open world genre, but we've come a long, long way since then

Bethesda still has no rival in it's specific type of open world. The same way Rockstar doesn't have any rivals to it's open worlds. Hell, no one is really trying to compete with them because they're masters of their craft at this point.

I didn't compare with CDPR games, in which stories/writing/characters "play" in a whole other category... That was never the strong point of Bethesda games, never.

I'd beg to differ! Morrowind was quite well written! Then it went downhill... very, very fast from Oblivion and on.

Still Starfield, has more lines than both Skyrim and FO4 combined and it's a new IP so maybe Bethesda is going all out on the writing and it'll be much better.... maybe? One can hope.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

I'd beg to differ! Morrowind was quite well written! Then it went downhill... very, very fast from Oblivion and on.

Still Starfield, has more lines than both Skyrim and FO4 combined and it's a new IP so maybe Bethesda is going all out of the writing and it'll be much better.... maybe? One can hope.

You're right and I assume that some "purists" would even say that after Morrowind, Bethesda never released a "good game" anymore...
Yes, I hope for something better for Starfield than their previous games, but I don't expect it... Best way to not be disappointed. If it's very good (or even just "good"), it will be a nice surprise. If not, well... whatever

 

[GrimReaper801]

You're right and I assume that some "purists" would even say that after Morrowind, Bethesda never released a "good game" anymore...
Yes, I hope for something better for Starfield than their previous games, but I don't expect it... Best way to not be disappointed. If it's very good (or even just "good"), it will be a nice surprise. If not, well... whatever

Can't say I'm holding out much hope for decent writing in Starfield myself either. I mean more isn't necessarily better quality. It's really the new IP part that makes me think maaaaybe. After all you want your new IP to start with a bang and what better bang than that for a Bethesda game. I also suspect it'll be far less buggy than previous games. It's a Bethesda game and these huge open worlds always have bugs but they have gotten better with each game. On PC anyway.

If not then, like you said, whatever. The bugs will get better with patches and even with their usual mediocre writing their games are still extremely entertaining for what they are.

 

[The_Blacks]

Wait, what? TW3 is a sandbox? You're going as far as saying it's better than Bethesda's?

Even Skyrim isn't a pure sandbox but it's certainly a far better sandbox than TW3 because TW3, or any CDPR game for that matter, isn't meant to be a sandbox. At all. They're story driven games set in an open world with a few, rather typical, open world elements. The closest element TW3 has to a sandbox game is Gwent. A pure sandbox gives you no real objective and let's you do anything in it's world. Even Skyrim doesn't fit the bill perfetly but TW3 isn't even close to that.

In Bethesda's games, you can be whoever you want and almost whatever you want. From your "morality" to your fighting style all the way to emergent gameplay ideas. Few things scream immersive sim/sandbox than dumping a cauldron on a merchant's head so you can steal everything they own without repercussion as stupid as that sounds.

TW3 is an open world RPG. That's it. An amazingly good one but it is not meant to compete with Skyrim and vice versa. They are different product aiming to satisfy different interests.

I also find the "some of us need more" statement to ring of elitism. As in "them peons are satisfied with little, their betters need more". Not saying that's how you meant it, just how it sounds. Especially when the reality isn't that it's more, it's that it's different and not what you're looking for.

Simply put, there are things Bethesda does far better than CDPR and things CDPR does far better than Bethesda, if what you want is a story driven game with deep writing then Bethesda's games aren't what you're looking for but it certainly doesn't mean that CDPR's game are "more" because of their better writing. Just like if what you're looking for is a sandbox RPG that'll allow you to be pretty much anything you want (within reason considering the game world) then Bethesda's game are what you're looking for but still not "more" than CDPR's games. Just different games meant to scratch entirely different itches.



Bethesda still has no rival in it's specific type of open world. The same way Rockstar doesn't have any rivals to it's open worlds. Hell, no one is really trying to compete with them because they're masters of their craft at this point.



I'd beg to differ! Morrowind was quite well written! Then it went downhill... very, very fast from Oblivion and on.

Still Starfield, has more lines than both Skyrim and FO4 combined and it's a new IP so maybe Bethesda is going all out on the writing and it'll be much better.... maybe? One can hope.

Bethesda doesn't really let you be anything you want, just a bland soulless blank-slate custom character roaming an empty world. I feel more freedom in The Witcher because your choices in the story do matter. Bethesda is just... what? Joining guilds, being a criminal, or choosing to follow some conventional hero's journey story. No interesting moral choices anywhere, just meaningless customization options. No elitism in wanting to spend my money in something of much higher quality for the same price.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

I feel more freedom in The Witcher because your choices in the story do matter. Bethesda is just... what? Joining guilds, being a criminal, or choosing to follow some conventional hero's journey story. No interesting moral choices anywhere, just meaningless customization options.

Again, I could be wrong, but "sandbox" doesn't even need a story (it's even the opposite^^). The story is generally yours.
The extrem example, Minecraft is an open world sandbox, there is no story at all... No Man's Sky is a sand box open-world (open space^^), but the story... let's say that it's not the main purpose

In Bethesda games, the story is "an excuse" to explore the world. Totally opposite to CDPR games.

 

[GrimReaper801]

Bethesda doesn't really let you be anything you want, just a bland soulless blank-slate custom character roaming an empty world. I feel more freedom in The Witcher because your choices in the story do matter. Bethesda is just... what? Joining guilds, being a criminal, or choosing to follow some conventional hero's journey story. No interesting moral choices anywhere, just meaningless customization options.

Skyrim certainly has meaningful choices. You just don't like what they are

And, yes, that's exactly what a sandbox is. Here is a ton of systems, play with them. You can be a melee fighter, a ranged fighter or a mage! Maybe a mix of two of those, why not all 3! Want to be thief? Go ahead! An assassin? Why not! Lead a faction? Sure! Shout someone off the tallest mountain? Have fun! Want to spend all day in jail just cause? It's weird but sure! That's what a sandbox is aaaaalll about.

You consider them meaningless because it's a type of game that doesn't fit your personal tastes. From what you're saying you wouldn't enjoy pure sandboxes either. They just dump you in a world for you to play with and usually have little to no story/dialogue. You make your own story in there. Bethesda's games on the other hand give you a framework around which you build your sandcastle.

There is nothing wrong with not liking Bethesda's games but to say CDPR's or Bethesda's games are better or of higher quality when both these companies aim to scratch vastly different itches is just plain wrong. It's like saying Forza Horizon is an objectively better game than GTA5 because they're both driving games set in open worlds. It's deeply misunderstanding what GTA5 is meant to be. The little overlap in genre there is between the two does not make them comparable or even competing products. It's the same thing with your comparison between TW3 and Skyrim, they are completely different games aiming for completely different goals. You just happen to not like what one is aiming for but that certainly doesn't mean that your preference is better.

No one will fight you on CDPR's writing being better. Leagues better in fact but to say TW3 is a better sandbox (or even just saying it's a sandbox) than any of Bethesda's games since.... at least Morrowind, is objectively wrong.

No elitism in wanting to spend my money in something of much higher quality for the same price.

Yeah, that's not what your original statement was but whatever it doesn't matter.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Want to be thief? Go ahead!

For me it's the best example
You see an item that you can buy... It's sad.
In TW3 or Cyberpunk, nothing that you can do except earning the required money.
In Bethesda games, no problem. You can steal it. You wait the night, lockpick the door or steal the key to the vendor and pickup the item that you looking for (or clearing all the shop entirely^^).

 

[The_Blacks]

Skyrim certainly has meaningful choices. You just don't like what they are

And, yes, that's exactly what a sandbox is. Here is a ton of systems, play with them. You can be a melee fighter, a ranged fighter or a mage! Maybe a mix of two of those, why not all 3! Want to be thief? Go ahead! An assassin? Why not! Lead a faction? Sure! Shout someone off the tallest mountain? Have fun! Want to spend all day in jail just cause? It's weird but sure! That's what a sandbox is aaaaalll about.

You consider them meaningless because it's a type of game that doesn't fit your personal tastes. From what you're saying you wouldn't enjoy pure sandboxes either. They just dump you in a world for you to play with and usually have little to no story/dialogue. You make your own story in there. Bethesda's games on the other hand give you a framework around which you build your sandcastle.

There is nothing wrong with not liking Bethesda's games but to say CDPR's or Bethesda's games are better or of higher quality when both these companies aim to scratch vastly different itches is just plain wrong. It's like saying Forza Horizon is an objectively better game than GTA5 because they're both driving games set in open worlds. It's deeply misunderstanding what GTA5 is meant to be. The little overlap in genre there is between the two does not make them comparable or even competing products. It's the same thing with your comparison between TW3 and Skyrim, they are completely different games aiming for completely different goals. You just happen to not like what one is aiming for but that certainly doesn't mean that your preference is better.

No one will fight you on CDPR's writing being better. Leagues better in fact but to say TW3 is a better sandbox than any of Bethesda's games since.... at least Morrowind is objectively wrong.



Yeah, that's not what your original statement was but whatever it doesn't matter.

That's exactly what my original statement was, if you choose to interpret preferring open world settings that do not cast aside a good plot in favor of said open world as elitism that's up to you: Bethesda just does the same formula over and over again, I've already played that game. Maybe in a hard Sci-Fi setting it could be more interesting, but given their track record I'm inclined to disagree. Joining/leading guilds and committing pointless crimes doesn't sound like freedom nor creativity to me, just illusion of choice. Better to be a preset Witcher that can choose multiple moral paths even in the sidequests, that's a more interesting form of creativity, not simply choosing playable races or factions that mean little in the end. TW3 may be a preset character game, but I feel I can influence that world with my actions so much more than Skyrim, inside and outside of the main quest.

 

[GrimReaper801]

That's exactly what my original statement was, if you choose to interpret preferring open world settings that do not cast aside a good plot in favor of said open world as elitism that's up to you:

No, it wasn't, your original statement was:

Some of us need more, but TW3 has the sandbox/open world aspect, just not empty, lifeless and purposeless like in Bethesda.

Which says TW3 has the sandbox/open world aspect, when it does not have a sandbox aspect because it's not meant to, then it implies that this non-existent sandbox aspect is better than Bethesda's sandboxes which is just plain false.

When taken as a whole with the "some of us need more" is what sounds elitist. Next time you go to a restaurant chain, speak to the manager and ask them if they like doing what they do for a living and once they're done tell them that some of us need more in life than managing a restaurant for a soulless company - see how that goes. Even if what you truly meant is that you couldn't possibly see yourself doing their job because it's not your forte, it won't go well.

Again, I was not saying that's how you meant it at all. Just how it sounds and it probably doesn't even sound that way to everyone. If what you meant is that you prefer open worlds that don't sacrifice plot in exchange of other stuff, you could have just clarified your position like you just did.

It's the internet and were writing, it's tone deaf. People will take you at your words and if you think they misunderstood you, just clarify your position.

Bethesda just does the same formula over and over again, I've already played that game. Maybe in a hard Sci-Fi setting it could be more interesting, but given their track record I'm inclined to disagree.

So I assume you don't play any of the Assassin's Creeds? They've been following the same formula for a while now with a few new gadgets and a new story. You're an Horizon fan aren't you? I assume you skipped the sequel? It's the exact same formula with a new story and a few new things but essentially the same game. Also skipped all of the GTAs after GTA3 I assume, there hasn't been much change to the formula since they went 3D. I can keep going but I'm sure you can figure out where I'm going with this.

It's how series, or studios as a whole, carve their share of the market. They do something and try to keep getting progressively better at it until they are the go-to reference for this type of game. Which Bethesda certainly is for sandboxy open world RPGs and they'll keep on doing exactly that with Starfield - different story, some new stuff here and there coupled with a new coat of painting.

Joining/leading guilds and committing pointless crimes doesn't sound like freedom nor creativity to me, just illusion of choice. Better to be a preset Witcher that can choose multiple moral paths even in the sidequests, that's a more interesting form of creativity, not simply choosing playable races or factions that mean little in the end. TW3 may be a preset character game, but I feel I can influence that world with my actions so much more than Skyrim, inside and outside of the main quest.

Again, the point is that you just don't like the cheaper/mediocre writing for the choices found in Bethesda's games, and that is fine, but it doesn't mean one product is better than the other because they're vastly different products aiming for vastly different goals. It only means that one is more fitting to you and, again, I can't stress this enough, that is entirely fine.

I prefer CDPR's games if I want to get immersed into a deep, mature, story. I prefer Bethesda if I want to live out my shouting barbarian fantasy or, soon-ish, my space pirate fantasy. The writing is shallower and sometimes just plain cheap (Do I hand over this entire province to the Thalm...huh, romans or the nazi vikings?!) but there certainly are meaningful choices in Bethesda's games too, they're just not the focus of their games.

Anyway, we're probably veering dangerously close to personal skirmish territory and the mods are probably on the verge of shutting this shit down. You're entitled to your opinion; we obviously won't agree and that's really all there is to it.

 

[Spectral_Warrior]

Having read through the discussion on this page. let me propose a question:
"What game doe you enjoy more in general?"
- GTA-5 (Online)
- Fallout 3/4
- Witcher 3
- Last of Us

In my view, a very clear definition ranging between a nearly pue sandbox game, open world games with different focusses and a linear pure storytelling game.


On the tpic of Starfield. caught some news channels over the course of the last 2 days and... well it seems pretty much like what I'd expect from a Bethesda game. But unlike FO76, Starfield still has me curious enough that I'd wanna try it. I liked the look of it fine enough, including the character creation. I personally am curious to how the settlement building will look like as well as my battlecruiser
In the end it'll depend on if they can bring it home this time around. time will tell.

For reference: I still play rather loads of Fallout 4 because I enjoy treating it as a sort of sandbox, dont care about Shaun (and I'll shoot it at some point when I choose to meet him), and in the meatime I like the play Railroad agent while building myself outposts all over the world.
If Starfield can support something like that also, with the potential for more, then I could like it fine enough.

 

[Notserious80]

Looks pretty promising tbh, so far that is. seems gunplay looks better then before and im guessing they have worked on fixing as much as they can.. I like the premis and exploration if it really is as shown..

 

[BabaBooey88]

Looks pretty promising tbh, so far that is. seems gunplay looks better then before and im guessing they have worked on fixing as much as they can.. I like the premis and exploration if it really is as shown..

Yeah, gunplay looks to be the best Bethesda has ever put on offer. Wasn't sold on it before but I'm far more interested now.

 

[pliskards]

Yeah, gunplay looks to be the best Bethesda has ever put on offer. Wasn't sold on it before but I'm far more interested now.

I was skeptical. But the trailer and showcase so far have me sold.

 

[Notserious80]

OMG not the fan again! DAMMIT!

 

[LeKill3rFou]

I was skeptical. But the trailer and showcase so far have me sold.

Yeah me too. I try to moderate my hype and expectations... but it seem pretty awesome

OMG not the fan again! DAMMIT!

Yeah

 

[Notserious80]

Have i feeling im going too love this game, man both BG3 and Starfield to get tired of before ill get too PL. Gonna be awhile i think ^^ Im a giant space nerd so it would be cool if everything they say is true with physics and so on and it not beeing as another space game was all smoke and mirrors...

 

[BabaBooey88]

Have i feeling im going too love this game, man both BG3 and Starfield to get tired of before ill get too PL. Gonna be awhile i think ^^ Im a giant space nerd so it would be cool if everything they say is true with physics and so on and it not beeing as another space game was all smoke and mirrors...

Yeah... Roberts is laid up right now, ventilator forcing 99.7% distilled Copium straight into his lungs. All he had to do was make that damn game.