Stealth - What do you want to see?

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Guest 4149880

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Pertaining to stealth, I'd like to the option to be 100% ghost in/out of missions if done right and it's a viable option. The gear and cyber-ware to allow for advanced stealth tactics aside from hiding behind walls.

In addition to the old school stealth options, the gear the player uses and how to prepare for the missions should take priority over the players actual skill. Passive stealth (staying quiet, hiding out of sight) should be an option for almost any player, stealth build or not, as it's situational. The gear, tech, cyber-ware, companion options like Flathead spider bot, should be where stealth takes form and being able to mix, match and combined different variations will all depend on the player.

Stealth options.
-Line of sight. Light & dark system.
-Sound based. Proximity method.
-Invisibility optic camo tech from sight/thermal/etc. Not a full proof method, should be riskier, not easier.
-Hacking Surveillance/networks/viruses
-Using companions (Flathead/drones) for recon and areas inaccessible to player.
-Disguise yourself as the enemy, behind enemy lines.
-Weapons, lethal/non-lethal, silenced, melee CQC, quiet methods.
-Hardware, grapple, mantis blade, environmental traversal.
-Tech to counter sight, sound, detection.
-Tech for environmental observation. Night vision, thermal, enemy traffic, heat & electrical signatures & footprints, see thought walls etc...
-Scenarios that divert attention away from player path.

Expect a counter to every stealth option used at some point, given the variety of options to the player, there is no one way to use stealth, but many ways to do it right. Overall stealth should be the hard mode method, more time consuming and slower paced but more rewarding. Majority of stealth options in games is the easy route, it should be the opposite in 2077 and require preparation for each mission. Something the player needs to consider long term within missions entirety, not simply moment to moment encounters.
 
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You've missed a lot of great discussions on this topic over the years, Beast!

I'll lay out some of my desires here. Note - there is some overlap with yours.

  • While I don't believe 100% stealth or non-lethal will be possible (the latter has been confirmed not to be possible), I also hope to be able to "ghost" through missions on a fairly regular basis.
  • Agreed about light/sound-based stealth. Faster you move, the more noise you make.
  • Most importantly, I do NOT want to be "detected" for no reason. I enter a room and nobody sees me, yet everyone instantly knows where I am because... games. Fortunately, they've confirmed that enemies "won't automatically" know where you are... So, we'll see.
  • I want non-lethal weapons of various types. Hand-to-hand knockouts, cyberblackjacks, futuristic stun guns, some sort of sleep dart, etc. I don't care what form they come in, so long as they exist.
  • Multiple ways to distract enemies in a decently-believable manner. So, maybe an enemy stops falling for my thrown rock after a few times and starts getting jumpy -- not enough to sound the alarm, but maybe enough for him to grab a buddy and start patrolling.
  • Ability to drag or move bodies (confirmed, based on demo prompts).
  • Multiple routes into a building. Not a stupid amount like Deus Ex or Dishonored, and it doesn't need to be for every single building in the game, but a decent amount. The All Foods Plant seemed sadly restrictive in this regard -- there was an open gate to the left that perhaps could have led to a stealthier entrance, but it seemed like CDPR REALLY wanted you to go through the front door to do a deal. There was no option to tell Jackie "we're going to sneak in and swipe the bot."
  • Definitely want non-lethal takedowns to stay in the game and have an impact on the story or character interactions in some way; whether positive or negative.
  • Stealth-focused cyberware. Whether it's noise dampening, the spiderbot implant so you can use it to sneak around on ceilings and cause distractions or simply scout rooms, anything is fine with me.
  • Ability to add suppressors. By 2077, I'm sure suppressors are advanced enough to nearly mute the sound of gunfire, so "but muh realism" shouldn't be a terribly big concern.
  • It'd be cool if your clothing had an impact on your stealth; I.E. the darker it is in a dark corner, the harder you are to see. But I don't expect this.
 
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Some additional bits I'd love to see are locations where one could, quite certainly go in pew pewing away, but, there's much more incentive for going in quiet.

I've been a little partial to the concept of a dynamic incentive reward system based on style of approach to certain missions.
You talk your way in and out, there's suddenly a Silver Tongue implant in the Ripper Doc store that gives even more bonuses to doing a Lando Calrissian all the way across Night City.
You blast and burn your way through a mission, leaving nothing but ashes in your wake, then special armor, weapon, or an implant related to that style might suddenly become available for purchase.
Stealth your way through, Netrunner your way in and out, and rewards helping those approaches may either be found specifically for and only by using those styles, and/or become available for sale at places.

We've seen static and dynamic loot as well as you can choose one out of this selection in quests for (insert any game name here), but, I can't think of a system that rewards you per style of approach per mission that really encourages you for that style of play.
There's certainly some soft encouragements for certain play styles with post-mission report cards with some games, and some scavenger hunt items scattered around maps to encourage exploration, but, I can't think of any instances that specifically, dynamically reward per play-style beyond the report card screen in games like Hitman, Dishonored, etc.

Sure, there's points you get to invest in skill trees or some other system for your favorite play styles, but, that's more generic advancement than specific specialized incentive for completing a specific specialized approach to a challenge.

Something else I'd love to see:
Most quest missions are structured such that you get the quest and you go in and do the thing, however you're going to do the thing, but, regarding stealth, it'd be nice if there were the option to recon locations, to go in, plant bugs, mines, disable alarm and surveillance systems, set traps, and generally do the sneaky thing, and from all that, go back to your people, and execute a plan based on that recon and preparation.
We usually go in semi-blind and just do the thing, and the thing is done, but, I think it'd be nice were there incentive or chance to collect that extra information, maybe even cause a distraction kerfluffle at some associated location to pull bad guys away from the quest area.
I think I seem to want to recall a little bit of something like this on rare instance with one or two main quest objectives in a game or two, but, it's not a common thing.

Alternative solutions to missions would be nice too, like, one could, for instance, like with the scav mission, scout the location, sneak in, get the princess that needs rescuing to start transmitting again, and leave the Med Tech crew to do all the dirty work. By extension, one could, potentially, do the same thing at other locations, and purposely kidnap someone, drop them in a bad guy location, and trigger their medical contract while you sit back and watch the fireworks then sort through the mess afterwards.
 
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I believe I read something about stealth, that you arent forced to fight, you can play as pacifist.
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Pretty much everything Snow said. Metal Gear Solid V or Deus Ex Human Revolution is probably the best overall implementation of stealth tactics IMO.

Nice, they have started to hype next Metal Gear, just couple month ago. I want to see better graphics at least, fingers crossed they upgraded the engine.
 
I like all of this thread.

I am looking forward to team stealth. Can you imagine a team of people who are pretty good at not getting caught? Where everyone brings some good gear together, it all compliments each other, they know how to communicate, and work well together. If done correctly, I can see it turning into one of the strongest mechanics for the game.

I've always wanted a strong camouflage option as well. The option on the "spiderbot" still gives a rainbow sheen with miniscule outlines. Don't get me wrong, that is completely cool and has to be rendered as "something".

But I am really hoping for a type of camo that can make you blend into your surroundings...like a cuttlefish or octopus.
It's the idea that you are out in the open to be seen, but your entire outline and movements are masked by real time colors, stripes, lines, shapes, luster, ectect.
If you were to stay more still, the camo would adapt easier and make it seem like true invisibility. People could still bump into you, but for the most part you would look like a "glitch" in reality. How this plays into any optics that can show heat or outline is another story, but I have always wanted a more real-time futuristic-style based camo that could be tight fitting clothes or skin itself. It would be like +10stealth for every article of clothing taken off.
With "exotic fashion" being a subject in 2077, how will some fashion-esque choices help out tactical functionality?

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Yo, dis is me an my frens bustin up ina corpo office on a Wednesday. Gettin loot.
 

Guest 4149880

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I like all of this thread.

I am looking forward to team stealth. Can you imagine a team of people who are pretty good at not getting caught? Where everyone brings some good gear together, it all compliments each other, they know how to communicate, and work well together. If done correctly, I can see it turning into one of the strongest mechanics for the game.

I've always wanted a strong camouflage option as well. The option on the "spiderbot" still gives a rainbow sheen with miniscule outlines. Don't get me wrong, that is completely cool and has to be rendered as "something".

But I am really hoping for a type of camo that can make you blend into your surroundings...like a cuttlefish or octopus.
It's the idea that you are out in the open to be seen, but your entire outline and movements are masked by real time colors, stripes, lines, shapes, luster, ectect.
If you were to stay more still, the camo would adapt easier and make it seem like true invisibility. People could still bump into you, but for the most part you would look like a "glitch" in reality. How this plays into any optics that can show heat or outline is another story, but I have always wanted a more real-time futuristic-style based camo that could be tight fitting clothes or skin itself. It would be like +10stealth for every article of clothing taken off.
With "exotic fashion" being a subject in 2077, how will some fashion-esque choices help out tactical functionality?

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Yo, dis is me an my frens bustin up ina corpo office on a Wednesday. Gettin loot.

Get this man a copy of Metal Gear Solid 4!

If you haven't played that, shame on you, but what your describing sounds like the form of Octo-Camo technology used by Snake and the enemies in that game. Similar to the camouflage techniques of an octopus & cuttlefish. I agree, its awesome type of camo and I'd like to see this tech in 2077 as well for sure.

I'm just not sure how well this would be representing in a FPP game to really enjoy it as MGS4 was TPP. Maybe some kind of arm mounted display showing what your suit is camouflaging into?

octo camo .jpg
 
Get this man a copy of Metal Gear Solid 4!

If you haven't played that, shame on you, but what your describing sounds like the form of Octo-Camo technology used by Snake and the enemies in that game. Similar to the camouflage techniques of an octopus & cuttlefish. I agree, its awesome type of camo and I'd like to see this tech in 2077 as well for sure.

I'm just not sure how well this would be representing in a FPP game to really enjoy it as MGS4 was TPP. Maybe some kind of arm mounted display showing what your suit is camouflaging into?

Yeah, that is pretty much what I am referring to, but instead of it being a highly tactical item it is a "style/clothing option", or it could be a really expensive(?) add-on to your skin? Almost as if it the tech has been played out as battle gear and is only used by people who can really use it. This could include an illegal "black out" option where it has to be modded by a techie to be true stealth to any cyberoptics.

It would be good for disappearing from places or perhaps if you had to sit somewhere for a bit and had to do some netrunning stuff since you would want a buddy/lookout/spotter. Since it is single player I can see myself wanting to get into some places alone, but needing to sit unseen for a few minutes. Or it is just a trippy skin for the club.

And yes shame on me, I haven't played MGS4. Sorry if I mentioned it spot on. I knew of the ability in the game, but haven't played out the mechanics of it. Since joining the forum has been the only time I've been in front of my own computer with the ability to play anything for years. MGS4 sounds amazing and I was following it when it came out (that artwork!). I just never had the ability to play it. Boo.

I like the sort of old school stealth best. There is line of sight, sound and distance, whose potency the stealth skill determines.
This is what I am hoping on as well with a more "reliance on your gear" and what you have on you type of feel.
Buuut if you happen to have trippy skin...
 

Guest 4149880

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Yeah, that is pretty much what I am referring to, but instead of it being a highly tactical item it is a "style/clothing option", or it could be a really expensive(?) add-on to your skin? Almost as if it the tech has been played out as battle gear and is only used by people who can really use it. This could include an illegal "black out" option where it has to be modded by a techie to be true stealth to any cyberoptics.

It would be good for disappearing from places or perhaps if you had to sit somewhere for a bit and had to do some netrunning stuff since you would want a buddy/lookout/spotter. Since it is single player I can see myself wanting to get into some places alone, but needing to sit unseen for a few minutes. Or it is just a trippy skin for the club.

And yes shame on me, I haven't played MGS4. Sorry if I mentioned it spot on. I knew of the ability in the game, but haven't played out the mechanics of it. Since joining the forum has been the only time I've been in front of my own computer with the ability to play anything for years. MGS4 sounds amazing and I was following it when it came out (that artwork!). I just never had the ability to play it. Boo.


This is what I am hoping on as well with a more "reliance on your gear" and what you have on you type of feel.
Buuut if you happen to have trippy skin...


I agree with you on how the octo-camo should be implemented, I like it. And yes play MGS4 at some point, its amazing.

Yes, the reliance of stealth gear is the direction I'm hoping for over stats or skills.

When it comes to advanced tactics against technology but also old school stealth against more rudimentary situations. So for example. The player uses an EMP to blackout all tech(lights, power, enemy gear) in a large area so using old school stealth would pay off, where as breaking into a maximum security facility might require some advanced stealth gear depending on the technology they have to detect you.

I hope there's possibilities to where if the player can recon and gather information on the mission beforehand that way you can control how you would ultimately handle the major aspects of the mission. Given that each mission has a determined outcome but give the player the tools and complete it how they want.

End result is getting the gold, how you get it is your choice.
 
Just hope trying to be a pacifist doesn't mean being punished for it like in the demo.

Really hoping that certain things happen on time and you can sync to some events happening in the environment. It would give some "pacifist" options to something like netrunning and could give you the ability to use the environment as a weapon.

Imagine if you had to throw off the rapid transit for a mission just to stir up the NPCs and cause confusion. Maybe so that something else could fall into place. What are the consequences?

The more complex the interactions with things the more options for strategic combos and/or failures of electronic stuff. Not shooting for "Watch Dogs hacking" by any means, but I would love to be able to pull off "combo-like" destruction in certain places instead of "melee my way out".
 
Just hope trying to be a pacifist doesn't mean being punished for it like in the demo.

Well there was a way through that mission that is fully pacifist, FYI. You warn the gang about the chip's origin, and they put it in a sandbox environment and remove the virus.

Although, you should be punished sometimes for trying to go the non-lethal route. But not all the time.

And fully pacifist won't be possible, Cyberway is mistaken. You will have to fight at some points.
 

Guest 4149880

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I wonder how they will implement stealth in terms of gameplay.

For example if the player uses a partial or full body invisible stealth suit, will your weapons still be visible, leaving the player to have to rely on small concealable weapons or none at all to remain mostly unseen based on a total % based concealment.

Or will they use a much more streamlined system where its more or less a toggle-able mode like Crysis where its basically creates an invisibility field around the player and weapons as a total concealment. Rather hope its not that simple. Hope they consider other options.
 
I am keeping my hopes in check regarding stealth. I am not sure if it will even be a thing at all, or if it will be only in scripted sections.

Of course I'd love for many of the suggestions in this thread to be true, but CP2077 is already an extremely ambitious game, and to add stealth on top of character creation, driving combat, first person dialogue etc. seems to me too good to be true. Given how hard it is to program stealth well, I am mentally ready to be disappointed if they announce that stealth gameplay won't be viable.
 

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I am keeping my hopes in check regarding stealth. I am not sure if it will even be a thing at all, or if it will be only in scripted sections.

Of course I'd love for many of the suggestions in this thread to be true, but CP2077 is already an extremely ambitious game, and to add stealth on top of character creation, driving combat, first person dialogue etc. seems to me too good to be true. Given how hard it is to program stealth well, I am mentally ready to be disappointed if they announce that stealth gameplay won't be viable.

I really think stealth is a staple in the genre, especially if Pondsmith takes inspiration from GiTS. Plus they have already shown evidence of it within the demo. Obviously things will change from the demo but I'd expect some form of stealth. Time will tell, but I agree... expectations in check.
 
It should be like Spiderman or Assassin's creed where it's very acrobatic. You on the side of building.

Crawling on the ceiling. Using the environment around you to you're advantage.
 
I am keeping my hopes in check regarding stealth. I am not sure if it will even be a thing at all, or if it will be only in scripted sections.
In one interview Miles Tost (a level designer at CDPR) said that netrunners are more of a "geeky" and "sneaky" type of character who "want to hack things". The sneaky seems to imply some sort of stealth was being considered at that time. It could have changed since then of course, but in the interview he says they're designing levels to accommodate that archetype ... so changing it would seem a rather large deviation. The discussion on archetypes starts at 0:20 into the interview and the specific line about netrunners is like 1:30 into the interview -

 
In one interview Miles Tost (a level designer at CDPR) said that netrunners are more of a "geeky" and "sneaky" type of character who "want to hack things". The sneaky seems to imply some sort of stealth was being considered at that time. It could have changed since then of course, but in the interview he says they're designing levels to accommodate that archetype ... so changing it would seem a rather large deviation. The discussion on archetypes starts at 0:20 into the interview and the specific line about netrunners is like 1:30 into the interview -

I will say, if there's not a decent stealth system, my interest is going to drop sharply. Not enough that I won't buy and enjoy the game, but I really have very limited interest in another shoot-em-up with dialogue options.

But I'm not concerned. I don't expecting amazing, all the time stealth, but I expect it to be viable, challenging, and entertaining enough to be a solid path through a large selection of the game's missions.

It would be nice if it was a bit Deus Ex like in the sense that you have multiple entry points and all that, but by not expecting that I'm hopefully keeping my hype in check.
 
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