Stop special card decks!!

[Guerreroymago]

Watch Freddybabes' recent YouTube video for an assessment of the arguments for and against.

I try to watch it, but he talk too speedy and I d´ont have time to read the translation in youtube, sorry (my english is limited)
He say is not fun for he. I think all arguments is based in that, not in a real problem for game.
When you play Gwent, what % of people you watch whit this decks? For me is maybe 2%? And normally lose. This is not a problem.
Anothers things is a problem (people helping another experienced people in matches, all experienced people whit same decks, whit same cards... boring... new people like me d´ont have temporally this posibility for buy all gold cards needed).
I like creative decks.

 

[nedders]

No/fewer units = massive removal = bad for game. Pretty simple, really.

 

[monkeypony]

Still more fun than playing against yet another brainless Bran or Woodland deck.

 

[nedders]

Still more fun than playing against yet another brainless Bran or Woodland deck.

You know what? You have a point!! Can we also add Dana/Bowl of Brok/Skaggs to that dull-as-crap deck list?!

 

[StrykerxS77x]

I respect Freddybabes’ achievements in Gwent but I see him as a young popular streamer and when it comes to ‘no unit’ decks I don’t share his view at all.
I played about 300 games on the ladder in past 3 seasons with my ‘no unit’ Ethiene deck. I managed to climb from R15 to R7 in the first, from R11 to R7 in the second and this season from R11 to R7 again. Than I used the meta Big Woodland pointslam to push to R6.
My ‘no unit’ deck plays 8-9 units, 8-9 spells and 8 artifacts. The notion that you can run 2-3 units and be competitive at higher ranks (R15 and brtter) is hard to believe. Also thinking that you need destroy artifact effects to beat it is a total misconception. To call this deck no skill or low skill play is a major misunderstanding. It’s super dificult to build properly and master and you have to think hard on the spot every single game. Same goes for your opponent. It is beatable with many types of decks. The ‘no unit’ is truly strong agains unit based heavy removal decks.
What is ‘fun’ to play with or against in a competitive TCG/CCG is very subjective. The easiest solution is to add a casual ‘fun’ mode where you can play only units, no spells no artifacts. That would make all the people calling for simplistic, purely unit basesed play happy, without the need to change the game and ban or remove cards and mechanics in general and preserve the much needed complexity, variety and freedom of choice.
Note, I was a Beta player and I played MTG a lot before Gwent on and off in past 3 decades.

The game should always have complete freedom of choice but mechanics still need to be changed. Artifacts are terrible design and only enhance the no unit style. I don't really agree that the normal way of playing is simplistic. No unit is just spamming removal spells while playing artifacts which likely can't be touched by the opponent. That's pretty simple and feels very counter to how Gwent was originally designed to be played.

 

[petr_klokan]

The game should always have complete freedom of choice but mechanics still need to be changed. Artifacts are terrible design and only enhance the no unit style. I don't really agree that the normal way of playing is simplistic. No unit is just spamming removal spells while playing artifacts which likely can't be touched by the opponent. That's pretty simple and feels very counter to how Gwent was originally designed to be played.

So if we remove artifacts (incl. artifact-traps) and row effects (same problem unless you want to kill the fog with damage), and immunity (almost indestructible) and probably half the spells (to remove spell based decks) and all the other other “binary” stuff we will be left with damage/reset vs buff/heal units, simpler, repetitive game. Even now vast majority of decks I have seen at R7 and R6 is thrive or harmony. Honestly, I’m not sure why people complain so much about artifacts. I hardly see an artifact played against me. Unfortunately, I don’t see weather or bleeding or vitality or shields, or combo decks or spell based control decks or even Nilfgard decks.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

So if we remove artifacts (incl. artifact-traps) and row effects (same problem unless you want to kill the fog with damage), and immunity (almost indestructible) and probably half the spells (to remove spell based decks) and all the other other “binary” stuff we will be left with damage/reset vs buff/heal units, simpler, repetitive game. Even now vast majority of decks I have seen at R7 and R6 is thrive or harmony. Honestly, I’m not sure why people complain so much about artifacts. I hardly see an artifact played against me. Unfortunately, I don’t see weather or bleeding or vitality or shields, or combo decks or spell based control decks or even Nilfgard decks.

Traps can remain in a different form without being artifacts. I didn't say weather needed to be removed. It's not even really a part of the game right now. Didn't say remove immunity either. A very small amount of immunity is probably alright. I said nothing about removing spell or spell based decks. I did say players should always have free choice of all cards in the ladder.

I see shields all the time. Vitality isn't that prevalent on cards right now. It's basically an engine and engines aren't super popular since removal is so strong.

 

[dwavenhobble]

The main problem at present and the reason we're seeing the decks we are is because removal might be a problem.

The entire point of no unit decks is they rely on a big unit and getting last turn.

At present having units on the field is worth less than having them in the hand and that's part of the problem.

Units in the hand are safe for the most part.

That's part of why hand buff is becoming played so much and a lot of the no unit variants rely on some form of hand buff too to full work.

 

[Guest 4339135]

You know what? You have a point!! Can we also add Dana/Bowl of Brok/Skaggs to that dull-as-crap deck list?!

Still more fun than playing against yet another brainless Bran or Woodland deck.

Yeah, I think we all should play only no unit decks. Seems to be a lot of fun and a good idea when every other deck gets cancelled

 

[petr_klokan]

... Units in the hand are safe for the most part.

That's part of why hand buff is becoming played so much...

Spot on!

Post automatically merged: Apr 26, 2019

Traps can remain in a different form without being artifacts. I didn't say weather needed to be removed. It's not even really a part of the game right now. Didn't say remove immunity either. A very small amount of immunity is probably alright. I said nothing about removing spell or spell based decks. I did say players should always have free choice of all cards in the ladder.

I see shields all the time. Vitality isn't that prevalent on cards right now. It's basically an engine and engines aren't super popular since removal is so strong.

Fair enough but then I don’t get why you are against artifacts. There is a small amount of playable artifacts and are more or same “touchable” as immunity or weather.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

Spot on!

Post automatically merged: Apr 26, 2019

Fair enough but then I don’t get why you are against artifacts. There is a small amount of playable artifacts and are more or same “touchable” as immunity or weather.

In regards to weather
-it's hardly used because its not very good in homecoming
-its not the same as artifacts which are more flexible in abilities

Current immunity cards basically just sit and hold points. I don't care much if they stay in the game or get taken out. I do care about artifacts. They are cards that sit there and save plays/points for later and there is basically nothing the opponent can do about it. That is just bad design.

 

[petr_klokan]

In regards to weather
-it's hardly used because its not very good in homecoming
-its not the same as artifacts which are more flexible in abilities

Current immunity cards basically just sit and hold points. I don't care much if they stay in the game or get taken out. I do care about artifacts. They are cards that sit there and save plays/points for later and there is basically nothing the opponent can do about it. That is just bad design.

But this ability to save points for later costs a lot of provisions and againts high tempo decks is almost useless. On the other hand it gives you different strategic angle, which is the beauty in my view (same with weather or artifact-traps) Players can destroy artifacts. Also, players can win (and it is not by luck or in some rare cases) against decks that run one or more artifacts without destroy artifact effects. I would like to see stronger artifacts, more artifacts and stronger weather. There is plenty of destroy artifact/clear weather cards available in the game.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

But this ability to save points for later costs a lot of provisions and againts high tempo decks is almost useless. On the other hand it gives you different strategic angle, which is the beauty in my view (same with weather or artifact-traps) Players can destroy artifacts. Also, players can win (and it is not by luck or in some rare cases) against decks that run one or more artifacts without destroy artifact effects. I would like to see stronger artifacts, more artifacts and stronger weather. There is plenty of destroy artifact/clear weather cards available in the game.

Needing specific counter cards to stop artifacts is bad design. Artifacts should be taken out of the game.

 

[lich7058]

I agreed artifacts is okay now
(or a little bit weak)

Destory artifacts cost is cheap
(usually i just put 1 artifact destoryer card in my deck, only 4 cost)

And dont forget the artifacts card 's is high cost card
(One artifact means give up 1 powerful unit)

 

[Archan6el]

I can't believe how many special cards and artifacts I see today. Not so much the "no-unit (1-2)" decks, but now also decks with a few units but mostly artifacts and specials, which gives the same result. Seems like the masses have "discovered" artifacts and specials. The game feels a bit broken.

 

[mzeebra]

Gee. I just met a woodland spirit with no units deck. It would have been ok were it not for the fact that he could boost a unit with immune on hand. If that wouldn't have been the case, I would have won.

The game was not very fun in general, but that was a bit over the top. Why should someone be able to boost an immune unit on hand when it cannot be targetted on the board? I should not be able to be targeted on hand either.

I don't really mind people playing those type of decks, but there have to be some reasonable limits to what they are allowed. Using woodland spirit and being able to boost an immune unit on hand, that's not really ok.

 

[Archan6el]

Gee. I just met a woodland spirit with no units deck. It would have been ok were it not for the fact that he could boost a unit with immune on hand. If that wouldn't have been the case, I would have won.

The game was not very fun in general, but that was a bit over the top. Why should someone be able to boost an immune unit on hand when it cannot be targetted on the board? I should not be able to be targeted on hand either.

I don't really mind people playing those type of decks, but there have to be some reasonable limits to what they are allowed. Using woodland spirit and being able to boost an immune unit on hand, that's not really ok.

I fully agree: https://forums.cdprojektred.com/ind...and-spirit-immune-units-interaction.11004004/

 

[petr_klokan]

I can't believe how many special cards and artifacts I see today. Not so much the "no-unit (1-2)" decks, but now also decks with a few units but mostly artifacts and specials, which gives the same result. Seems like the masses have "discovered" artifacts and specials. The game feels a bit broken.

Big Woodland, Big Gerni and ST hand buff is all very hard to control with special/arti control decks. All I see on the ladder at R6 is the above. I lost badly last night when trying to push from R6 to R5 with my “no unit”. I think I will need to come up with a different anti meta deck with a lot of resets and tall unit removal to fight this.

 

[Melavi]

What i'm thinking about this situation:
There is no strategy in special card decks, it's not interesting to play. There's no fun to play against it, it super annoying. And finally it's stupid cause Gwent was created (in W3) as game about tactics and fighting between 2 armies, not about just killing cards 1 by 1 on table.

Solution:
Restrict special cards by 4-8 in deck, anyway normal decks don't need such cards that much.

 

[mzeebra]

What i'm thinking about this situation:
There is no strategy in special card decks, it's not interesting to play. There's no fun to play against it, it super annoying. And finally it's stupid cause Gwent was created (in W3) as game about tactics and fighting between 2 armies, not about just killing cards 1 by 1 on table.

Solution:
Restrict special cards by 4-8 in deck, anyway normal decks don't need such cards that much.

It is super annoying, but I think your proposed solution would be a bit over the top. Just making "no-unit" decks less attractive, by adjusting some current issues (like woodland boosting immune unit on hand) would go a far way in discouraging people to use these kind of decks. I don't think banishing such decks is necessary. Just remove incentives and "glitches".