Story and themes: What does it mean to be human?

[irreality]

Story and themes: What does it mean to be human?

One reason I am extremely excited about this game (and why I am posting here) is that the world of Cyberpunk creates a perfect backdrop to explore some extremely interesting philosophical questions, which often is lacking in videogames.

One such question is familiar from Ghost in the Shell movies (not so much from the animated series, in my opinion), which is what it actually means to be human? When we are becoming more and more augmented with technology, and eventually able to create real artificial intelligence, what separates human beings from the intelligence that we create? If you read a bit of evolutionary biology it becomes quite apparent that in a sense we, as human beings, are particular kinds of machines that have evolved for the purpose of helping our genes to survive. But what would be such a purpose for an AI?

In that world the main characters are cyborgs, humans only in a sense of their thought processes and behavior, but not a single organ is biological. They have completely mechanical bodies. So are they still human? And what then of an AI that has a similar body? It would basically be identical to a cyborg except for the origin of its thoughts, which presumably would not be a copy of the human brain - and thus something that has grown organically, as a result of a biological process - but instead something that was created consciously by a human being. A fine distinction that is not even necessarily evident from the outside. Like the androids from Blade Runner who looked and behaved like humans, except that in that movie the implications of all this were not really explored in depth.

Now imagine a world where humans are augmented by technology, AI, implants, or even completely cybernetic bodies. A world where androids are also commonplace and walk among the humans on the streets. And you would have no way knowing which is which. What would that be like? Would you be paranoid about the "people" around you? Would the value of being a human change somehow? How isolated or lonely might it feel? What role would the human emotions play? It has been studied that we readily give human aspects to machines whose behavior we cannot understand; saying things like "why does it do that" and "what is it thinking" when wondering about some behavior of even a vacuum robot, which doesn't even bear a resemblance to any living organism!

What makes this even more interesting, at least to me, is that we are not very farm from a world like that. We are already externalizing our thinking, memory and decision-making to electronic tools, and in laboratories living tissue has been connected to mechanical body parts. We are still the ones who make these decisions, but what happens when machines like the Watson computer by IBM, which helps doctors diagnose patients and recommends treatment, become commonplace? It seems already now that Watson is doing much better job than many trained physicians. In that kind of scenario when a machine tells you that out of A, B, and C options B is the best one, would you question it? We would be very close to delegating also the decision-making power to an AI at that point. For good or bad.


Another interesting viewpoint is the one explored in the Mass Effect series about organics creating an AI to solve a problem, but eventually the solution involves getting rid of organics. I remember reading a speculation somewhere, that the reason we have not yet been contacted by any extraterrestrial intelligence is that when civilizations start to become advanced enough for space travel, they also become advanced enough to create artificial intelligence, and it is that intelligence that eventually destroys these civilizations before they have a chance to contact us. I think this is an interesting thought, and from the perspective of the Cyberpunk game, it would be fascinating to explore the idea of a world where this process of destruction by artificial intelligence is just starting to happen. How would it play itself out? Why would an AI become the downfall of human civilization?



I hope someone will get something out of reading my ramblings and take these ideas further. Someone smarter than I am. What I just wanted to convey is that I think Cyberpunk could be much more than a normal videogame, an object of entertainment, and actually become something that makes us really think about our identity, who we are, and what makes us human.


Cheers

 

[immortalrites]

When the folks at CDPR said this would be a story-heavy game, this is exactly what i thought. I think sci-fi and cyberpunk in specific has the potential to explore these questions. I would really like to see the concepts of auto-theism and trans-humanism explored in this game. (similar to what we saw in Deus Ex: Human Revolution)

 

[Aditya]

Ghost in the Shell and Deus Ex: Human Revolution explored the same question in some ways, and I'm very excited to see CDP's take on this!
good post fellow punker

 

[Chewin3]

There's a lot of room for philosophical, ethical and political discussion when it comes to transhumanism and its values. It's certainly an area I'm interested in delving myself into when it comes to Cyberpunk 2077. But an important aspect to take into consideration, which I'm sure CDPR will, is to give it a multifaceted execution.

If Cyberpunk executes it in a bipolar representation, whether ideological or factional, it will be fundamentally flawed and very simplistic. There is no ideological conflict or issue when it comes to transhumanism and the impact on society, that can be summarized in dichotomies. Deus Ex: Human Revolution managed this quite well, when it didn't simply measure it with Security vs Freedom. Rather, it took that conflict and put it in a setting of other conflicting ideas and issues: human condition, progress, human morality, etc.

If CDPR manages to give a layer of complexity that delves into several causes and aspects, I'm certain it'll turn great.

 

[StunDamage]

Human Revolution really made me think about this, now CD Projekt have the chance to further develop these concepts and, judginh by their backlog, I strongly believe they will. I also think they are smart enough not to present only their viewpoint on the subject and put it in your face because this is something very childish. But again, they have never done this before and I have no reasons to worry. The important thing here is for them to write a story which is centered on such things, and presents every viewpoint possible. And then the players should have the right to judge for themselves, if their possibility of irrational, emotional based decision making is the thing that makes them human, or it is the biological origin and the body. And will they become less human if they get cyber psychosis? These are questions that don't have one simple answer and everyone should think of based on his/her own perception of reality and find his own personal truth. And every ot these 'truths' should be represented well enough in the story, whoch is the writer's biggest challenge.

 

[lostkauz]

It's the same answer always. The quest for both immortality and power. Do I give up just my body or is my soul part of the deal also?

 

[username_3641051]

"What is humanity" is a theme that is extremely prevalent in cyberpunk media. Blade Runner, Armitage III... pretty much anything that involves an android or heavily modded cyborgs touches on it. So while I'm always down for it, I hope they also introduce new themes.

 

[PHYKUR]

Make it simillar to Blade Runner, "the Nexus 6 question" Was Deckard a human or a replicant? Your character could be somenthing you don't know.. And from your actions on the game you could decide in a "balance" if he was or not, a Human, those are questions that aren't really solved easily, but they could be a great add to the game noir.

 

[gregski]

The whole braindancing concept is giving them one of the most powerful storytelling vehicles ever. Also it's a possibility to ask questions about our current forms of escapism, especially gaming. What if living someone else's lives becomes so addictive that you stop caring about your own?

 

[username_3499456]

There's a lot of room for philosophical, ethical and political discussion when it comes to transhumanism and its values. It's certainly an area I'm interested in delving myself into when it comes to Cyberpunk 2077. But an important aspect to take into consideration, which I'm sure CDPR will, is to give it a multifaceted execution.

If Cyberpunk executes it in a bipolar representation, whether ideological or factional, it will be fundamentally flawed and very simplistic. There is no ideological conflict or issue when it comes to transhumanism and the impact on society, that can be summarized in dichotomies. Deus Ex: Human Revolution managed this quite well, when it didn't simply measure it with Security vs Freedom. Rather, it took that conflict and put it in a setting of other conflicting ideas and issues: human condition, progress, human morality, etc.

If CDPR manages to give a layer of complexity that delves into several causes and aspects, I'm certain it'll turn great.

I so agree on this! Really, with todays media when it comes to games, books and movies, everything is so simplified. I frikkin hate it! I was sooo glad (and surprised) to see that Deus Ex: HR managed to achieve to tell a convoluted story that actually told it from different perspectives when it came to cybernetics and implants. And considering CD Projekt Red's complexity in morality and political story telling, I'm certain they will give us a game to be truly proud over.

 

[blarty]

Also the concept of 'human or not' is too brutal, too black and white a question, the questions that really should be explored is 'how human am I?', 'Am I still human enough?' These kind of ideas are explored through cyber psychosis where humanity is slipping away or through the use of AI or the SoulKiller program, and alternate net identities....

And there's plenty of these varying shades questions in the Cyberpunk genre - which is why a morality system that's good or evil wouldn't really fit, morality is highly dependent upon circumstance and the various people and factor in the situation at the time

 

[irreality]

As I was reading through your comments, one thing that started to take form inside my head was the idea of identity. In the world of Cyberpunk where technology is replacing biology I would imagine people struggling with the question of who they really are. I would imagine it to be much more difficult to connect to and have deep, meaningful relationships with other people when you have no idea about how much of them is really "them" and how much is fake; their bodies, their behavior, their thought processes? The result: alienation and feeling disconnected from the rest of the humanity (whatever that means in a world where pretty much everyone feels equally disconnected...). Perhaps even misanthropy?

However, this issue is not present only when it comes to connections with other people. I see it strongly present also in the "quest for identity" that everyone has inside their own heads. Who am I really? This question becomes even more challenging when, as I said, technology is starting to replace your biological parts. How can you tell what is real, authentic you and what is machine? How do the two aspects influence each other? Can you really even claim to be in control of your own thoughts? Especially if technology can enhance the work capacity of conscious mind.

*** As a side note to the one comment about rational/emotional decision-making, it's not that black & white either. Brain research has shown that people who are not able to experience emotions (those who have undergone a lobotomy), yet are perfectly rational, are completely unable to make decisions. So clearly emotions are very important in decision-making, even when it comes to rational decisions

What I find very interesting in the concept of "know thyself" is that my generation (us in late 20s and early 30s) seems to be largely struggling with that question. Almost everyone I talk with has made some drastic changes in where their lives are headed, or have otherwise "awaken" to the fact that they have not found what their calling or purpose is, and are now trying to figure that out. And by this I don't mean anything transcendental, but people seem to be really struggling to find what they are naturally interested in or passionate about, and also where they could make best use of their talents and abilities. This is something that could be meaningfully explored in the Cyberpunk world, while also being easy to relate to by today's young adults (and apparently the next generation is asking these same questions already at an even younger age).

Also the topic of fake vs. real is more and more evident in our lives today. Corrective / plastic surgery is commonplace. Women wear make-up, high heels, and push-up bras which all distort the image they project of themselves when considered from the point of view of the fake-real axis. Similarly we send messages about ourselves by the cars we drive and clothes we wear. They tell something about us, but it's difficult to assess the "truthfulness" of those messages without knowing the real person.

The quest for identity is strongly linked to the age-old question of what is the purpose of life? Why do we exist? When talking from strictly biological perspective our purpose is to preserve our genes. However, if we would develop an AI that becomes conscious of its own existence, how would that intelligence assess its own purpose? Would it be able to create its own answer to that question, or would its purpose need to be determined by its creators? And what would be the consequences of either option?


Thanks for the commenters. Was interesting to read your thoughts over my morning coffee

 

[Sardukhar]

Oh, this is easy. Empathy/Humanity rating 0 = not human. See? Job done. Yay game systems!

Trans/nonhumanis is a part of the cyberpunk genre and I suspect, as evidenced by the trailer, it will be a part of the game. Artificial intelligence is prsent in the setting as well, although not typically delved heavily into in the PnP. Gibson's Neuromancer series goes pretty seriously into this and throws in "what is real" as well. If you haven't had a chance to read it, everyone, you should do so.

For me, though, technologicaly amplified or reduced humanity isn't the central theme of cyberpunk. Instead, it is the question, "At what point does technology change us and our society into something less, something not worth having?" IN other words, at what point do we realise that not only can our machines not fix all our problems, they may make them worse?

And at what point is it necessary to fight back against these forces of "progress", these groups and entities that use tech and information systems to control and exploit us?

When do we realise that in return for prettier toys and sleeker bodies, we've given up or allowed them to take from us things like fulfilling lives, freedom of choice beyond what flavour of kibble or what shade of eyes we like and the abiity to go safely where we want, with who we want and do what work we can do?

That is the punk part of cyberpunk, and it is fully the other half of this setting. it is where the fight part comes in.

A cyberPUNK will put it all on the line, not just for honor or rep or money or a girl/boy/both, but because if the punk doesn't, they lose a little more of what matters to the people that try to tell us all where we can eat, sleep, what we can buy and what we should look like.

So you try to make a difference when you can, because you can and you should. And because screw the pretty people way up there.

To quote my favourite author, "The only thing you can't give up for your heart's desire, is your heart." Not even for a Pacemaker 2000.

 

[dymond]

Also the concept of 'human or not' is too brutal, too black and white a question, the questions that really should be explored is 'how human am I?', 'Am I still human enough?' These kind of ideas are explored through cyber psychosis where humanity is slipping away or through the use of AI or the SoulKiller program, and alternate net identities....

Indeed. This isn't a Bioware game, we don't need to go to the extremes with questions or answers.

And great post, irreality.

What I find very interesting in the concept of "know thyself" is that my generation (us in late 20s and early 30s) seems to be largely struggling with that question. Almost everyone I talk with has made some drastic changes in where their lives are headed, or have otherwise "awaken" to the fact that they have not found what their calling or purpose is, and are now trying to figure that out. And by this I don't mean anything transcendental, but people seem to be really struggling to find what they are naturally interested in or passionate about, and also where they could make best use of their talents and abilities.

Yes, I believe this is a feeling we know all too well.

 

[Sirnaq]

I take liberty of quoting someone from quite interesting discussion from somewhere else.

But it does. It actually does, right here in the real world. Talk to any well-adjusted amputee, and there is a huge-arse well of simmering what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-me below the surface. And those are the ones who have dealt with their demons for years and come out largely victorious.

Many lose. The suicide rate among amputees is incredibly high. And it's not a binary situation, either. Depressive symptoms are so common in those who have had amputations that more serious amputees are on the borderline of a diagnosis of depression that are not. In those who lost a limb in violent circumstances, there is a drastic incidence of PTSD, higher than that in returned soldiers from actual high-contact combat deployments. And this drastic increase in incidence is common to every subgroup tested so far.

It's not just trauma. Amputees are often suffering other problems, either induced or exacerbated by their loss of limb. Anger issues are common, An inability to interact socially is common.

Almost none of these issues are rectified by the provision of an artificial limb. When the user is sufficiently proficient that they can start to take part in something like their normal lifestyle, they tend to be less likely to develop severe psychological problems, but this does little to change the likelihood of developing the minor problems that characterise their life. Even in people who have been fitted with the absolute top-of-the-range equipment, that matches or exceeds human performance in every tested field, end up suffering for having lost a limb in the first place.

This isn't an 'on average' either. Governments spend shitloads on tracking the recovery of people they spend hundred of thousands of dollars of leg to, to see whether it's worth it. And while it's much better psychologically than having low-quality product that seriously inhibits your life, there are no cases, literally none, in the data I've been able to see of individuals who have been assessed as being as mentally stable and healthy as before their limb loss.

Now what's REALLY interesting is that this does not just apply to serious amputations, like hands, feet, arms, and legs. Any amputation of an entire body part has similar consequences. Yes, more drastic amputations carry larger effects, and yes, amputations that impair activity carry the secondary packages of life-fucking that losing your lifestyle brings. But even losing toes or parts of fingers to frostbite or diabetes, something only you will ever see and that a prosthetic can cover functionally identically and visually indistinguishably, carries some of these same psychological issues. The suicide rate in those who have lost toes is lower than those who have lost legs, yes, but still significantly higher than the population as a whole.

And then there's amputation of sexual features, which compounds all of these effects drastically and adds the third layer of sexual identity to the mix of serious issues.

Now what that tells me is that there's a fundamental component of the whole and complete human body that we need to feel whole as a person. Identity is at the crux of so much of our psychological health. A strong and well-rounded sense of self makes for an extremely robust person. An ill-founded self-identity, an overly-focused one, or one that balances itself on factors that person can't control, is not. But I would suggests that individuals also draw a far greater amount of their indenity from their humanity. Their physical form and its limits. This we never acknowledge because, hell, when do we need to? We KNOW we're human. But because this is such a fundamental concept to our sense of self, and because it is so very robust, when it IS challenged and it DOES crack, then there can be horrendous personal consequences.

And this is in people we see now, where deliberate amputation is a serious mental illness, and prosthetics are not so powerful as to dehumanise.

Imagine a world where a man can strip away every part of himself and become more than anyone else around him, or indeed EVERYONE else around him.

One man goes to work in a mine, and does the labour of three other men, feeling greater than any other their and praised for his efforts. But then he gets home, and spends a half-hour in the shower, just staring at the cold metal myoelectric interface pinning the metal to himself.

Imagine the prostitute, now that aesthetic augmentation is easy. She is better-treated than all the others, and has survived where many others either die, or lose their edge and are sold to darker purpose. She will never have to worry about STDs, which have killed and disfigured many of her friends. But even though none of them own their own bodies, at least some day the others may have their back. Her body has been sold long ago, piece by piece on the surgeon's table. It is difficult enough to convince former sex slaves that they are more than a pretty toy to be fucked. How much harder to persuade someone for whom this is physiologically true?

Then there's the super-merc, augmented to the bleeding edge of human capacity, and more dangerous than an entire district police force. He's better at his job than anyone else, and has survived what nobody else has, with the vast fortune to go along with it. He has felt the terror of seeing his first augged combatant as a normal man, felt the satisfaction of finally turning the tables with wetware of his own, and finally the sense of power that comes with full augmentation and being a modern day God of War. He is more physically powerful than any human in history; so much so that he has to retard his reflexes and strength by orders of magnitude just to keep those around him safe on the streets. But for all that power, it's a different story as he wakes up in the morning, in that slow semi-dream state. As systems come online and lockdowns lift, but before they rule it safe to respond. Memories of his early life, of childhood sports and fighting with brothers, but before the memory of so many white, clinical hallways and 'now count backwards from ten, please.' When for a second nerve triggers fire down all the old pathways, but before the myoelectric interfaces are able to respond. For those brief seconds there is the terrifying awareness that, for all his miraculous technology, he is a severed head lying on a bed, without the lungs to scream.

Systems detect full consciousness and un-safe themselves, and he bolts upright, chemical dispensers releasing mild sedatives in response to the stress. He's made it through, again. Like so many other days. And he'll make it through tomorrow, and the next, and the next. Until one day, when the thought of waking up like this every day for the rest of his life is too much, and he makes sure he never has to wake up again.

 

[hismastersvoice]

I take liberty of quoting someone from quite interesting discussion from somewhere else.

Hmmm. I can see where the author is coming from.

However.

What the post seems to be omitting is that homo sapiens are generally very bad a dealing with loss. And there's no greater loss that the loss of a body part, because our body equates us. We are what we look look like. What happens to our body happens to us. The unwilling loss of a limb is an unwilling loss of part of ourselves that we will never be able to replace.

Now, this is obviously natural. We only recently came to think that maybe we're not as tied to our fleshy bits as we thought, or rather felt, for millions of years. At the same time, we also started augmenting our bodies in various ways, as much as our technology level allowed us. Tattoos and body piercings? Augmentation. Makeup? Augmentation. Cosmetics? Augmentation. Body building and fitness? Augmentation. Implants? Augmentation. Botox? Augmentation. We're doing it every day without thinking about it. We do not rejects piercings or additional body mass after a weightlifting session, because we willed ourselves to obtain those "modifications". We intended it.

Which brings me to believe that, in-line with technological advancement, the line where socially acceptable, intentional augmentation ends will shift in a drastic manner. Today we may be conducting simple implant procedures, tomorrow we might be doing it for eyes, lungs or hearts. Tech is no longer a cold metal box and wires sticking out of your brain. It's hidden and it's nano. And it's getting disturbingly close to being more effective than the real thing. Once that happens, the willingness to replace even functional parts with tech will increase markedly. And I don't see people looking in the mirror with loathing, thinking of ripping that new heart out of their chest, just like they don't rip out their breast implants or don't carve off tattoos.

 

[username_3641692]

This is a very STRONG topic to go on, but still, Is very natural to humans and more in the scientist and their methods to became real controllable over populations, people etc...It always became from a single drop of knowledge and the wisdom of exploring. The exploration is the beginning of something that can dooms the humanity or free the humanity, as I read the post of hmv he said something really true about how people experiment first with little and then it consume them to ask for more.

That happen with this cybernetic implants. People and their need of ignorance to have better things and not know that can be their doom. This is very a dangerous because in the right hand you have the technology that really helps and in the other one you have the one of control and destroy humanity. And this is basically shown in every aspect of media, but people are so blind to see that they think that's can't happen.

People used to think that touch cellphones only exist in the sci-fi movies. Now look at us now. And so will go on.That's the meaning of wanting more and more. Soon we will be consume by it. And the feeling of being God and trying to help people that is not a bad thing at all. But when is enough, that people want to keep making technology artifacts to "help" in a way to keep making people addictive by it. And no care about consequences.

 

[queenslayer]

Well many have already stated quite well already how it could be implemented into Cyberpunk, and going to repeat that just as long as it is complicated and we actually get to the delve into transhumanism, I'm good.

 

[Cyber_Death]

The whole braindancing concept is giving them one of the most powerful storytelling vehicles ever. Also it's a possibility to ask questions about our current forms of escapism, especially gaming. What if living someone else's lives becomes so addictive that you stop caring about your own?

I have to agree with this. The whole "what is it to be human" concept has been done to death.

 

[braindancer12]

I really liked this in Ghost in the Shell i hope CD will use this topic too