[STORY SPOILERS] The Gripes and Problems with the Story

[Restlessdingo32]

Alt explicitly tells says "your consciousness, your neural engrams, will be recorded as data. Everything else will cease to exist." You very clearly lose something from this digitization process. My point is that it seems pretty clear that Soulkiller has always only ever made copies and killed the original.

And what exactly is "everything else"? That's pretty vague. It could mean any number of things. Obviously, the biological aspects go poof. You could say the "soul" goes poof. I don't get the impression people in 2077 are any more certain this is a real thing than people in 2021 though. You can believe it exists, sure. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs. Those views should be respected. It doesn't make them "right". Belief and reality don't always line up.

Right, the engram Johnny isn't the same Johnny Silverhand that died in that chair in that memory we saw. Chip Johnny is a copy of Johnny's everything, so of course he's going to think he's Johnny and he's going to act like Johnny. He still isn't, though, not on a fundamental level.

Maybe not. The question I asked isn't whether the previous version of the individual cares about this though. It's whether the end result cares about it. Going back to Soulkiller, "everything else" ceases to exist. Consciousness and neural engrams are still part of the individual. Those continue to exist. It has to count for something.

It's kind of a different play on the human vs the artificial. You replace an arm with a cybernetic one and, well, it's not your arm anymore. You still have a functioning arm.

It just strikes me as a convenient way to say V dies no matter what. Technically, the V you're playing all game after Dex shoots them in the head died too. Does the remaining V still cling to life? Yep. You could easily say biochipped, post bullet in the head V isn't the same V anymore.

Ironically, V's perspective is actually the only one where it isn't the same thing at all. If it just makes a copy and kills the original, there is no "from V's perspective", there's the character you've been playing the whole game dead in the water and some new consciousness that thinks its V.

This is the point. Old V doesn't matter anymore. Not if they're gone and replaced by new V. New V matters.

This is ostensibly an RPG. My perspective and the characters perspective should be nearly aligned.

They should be if you're "in character", yes. But this complaint strikes me as being "in character" with previous V and the new V. You can't be both from the character perspective. The player can because the player is outside the game. Even if you wish to say these two versions of V are not the same, so what? You played one character, they died, part of them was put into another character. Or placed back into the original biological vessel. Is it really a dealbreaker for this to happen?

Me, I'd rather look toward the future. Even if it's not the same V, meh. My V tried, failed, died and was replaced with a different version. As far as the rest of the game world is concerned it's still V. V knows it's not quite this simple. They'll have to grapple with that for whatever time they have left. That, to me, is perfectly okay. It can be interesting in it's own right, really.

I can be critical all day of certain areas of this game. This one, not so much. It's not perfect everywhere. It may not even be desired. It could be argued it was a little rushed and there are weak points to be found. I don't think it was horribly conceived and executed though. There are more pressing and glaring weaknesses to the game.

 

[Buckadoz]

And what exactly is "everything else"? That's pretty vague. It could mean any number of things. Obviously, the biological aspects go poof. You could say the "soul" goes poof. I don't get the impression people in 2077 are any more certain this is a real thing than people in 2021 though. You can believe it exists, sure. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs. Those views should be respected. It doesn't make them "right". Belief and reality don't always line up.

Everything else is everything that isn't the copy. The biological aspect goes "poof" and that's all there is; anything on Mikoshi at that point can only be a copy. I've never made the argument that the "soul" in Soulkiller was referring to some kind of actual spiritual soul. Mysticism in this game is always an allegory for humanity vs machine.

Maybe not. The question I asked isn't whether the previous version of the individual cares about this though. It's whether the end result cares about it. Going back to Soulkiller, "everything else" ceases to exist. Consciousness and neural engrams are still part of the individual. Those continue to exist. It has to count for something.

I'm not really sure why I should care what the end result thinks. The consciousness and neural engrams count insofar as they are used to create a new living thing that thinks it's the dead thing.

It just strikes me as a convenient way to say V dies no matter what. Technically, the V you're playing all game after Dex shoots them in the head died too. Does the remaining V still cling to life? Yep. You could easily say biochipped, post bullet in the head V isn't the same V anymore.

You could make that argument, but I don't think it's nearly as strong as the Soulkiller one. There is a continuation there, a kind of "reboot" that is fundamentally different to the copy-and-wipe of Soulkiller, plus Soulkiller is actually suggested to be the death of the person it's used on.

This is the point. Old V doesn't matter anymore. Not if they're gone and replaced by new V. New V matters.

New V does not matter. The character I cared about is dead at that point.

Even if you wish to say these two versions of V are not the same, so what? You played one character, they died, part of them was put into another character. Or placed back into the original biological vessel. Is it really a dealbreaker for this to happen?

Yeah. Absolutely, unequivocally, yeah. It means the game ends in failure and some created cybernetic abomination gets to live out the rest of V's life. It's almost as bad as letting Johnny have the body. If Soulkiller kills V, it's the only thing about the Sun and the Star endings that do matter.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

Everything else is everything that isn't the copy. The biological aspect goes "poof" and that's all there is; anything on Mikoshi at that point can only be a copy. I've never made the argument that the "soul" in Soulkiller was referring to some kind of actual spiritual soul. Mysticism in this game is always an allegory for humanity vs machine.

Fair enough.

I'm not really sure why I should care what the end result thinks. The consciousness and neural engrams count insofar as they are used to create a new living thing that thinks it's the dead thing.

Also fair enough .

You could make that argument, but I don't think it's nearly as strong as the Soulkiller one. There is a continuation there, a kind of "reboot" that is fundamentally different to the copy-and-wipe of Soulkiller, plus Soulkiller is actually suggested to be the death of the person it's used on.

Alright, this is a reasonable point to make. I can agree with it too.

New V does not matter. The character I cared about is dead at that point.

Full disclosure, I didn't find this narrative particularly interesting on a personal level. For several reasons.

One is they placed it into an open world game. I don't think it fits there. The time pressures clash with the rest of the concept they had going. They arguably made a similar mistake in TW3. Neither story was "bad". They just didn't fit well with the other aspects of the game at a conceptual level. I'm pretty sure they could have found a way to tell a decent story without these conflicts.

The ending certainly didn't leave me satisfied. You spend all this time in game looking for a solution and when it's all said and done it throws failure in your face. As noted, it could be interpreted as V survives. Maybe not complete V but at least in some capacity. It did feel like failure though. And.... I found this difficult to believe. All this tech, the capacity to get even the Johnny experiment to sorta work, and there is no fix in sight? If this is where the disappoint lies we're on the same page.

Yeah. Absolutely, unequivocally, yeah. It means the game ends in failure and some created cybernetic abomination gets to live out the rest of V's life. It's almost as bad as letting Johnny have the body. If Soulkiller kills V, it's the only thing about the Sun and the Star endings that do matter.

If it got anything right it's this part. The result left over of V, in whatever form they took, left me intrigued. As a complete picture it was all disappointing. At least we got this part though.

 

[ravynwolvf]

I've got to totally agree with the OP's post. I hated the certain death in Red Dead, and I hate it here. For me, the way the story is designed removes any desire to play it again. To start with, I have to go through about 5 hours of predetermined gameplay to really open up the game. And then I have this main story that really should be the only thing I concentrate on. Why would I go get some shmuck's eye back for him or do ANY side missions when I have a chip in my head that is soon going to kill me if I don't do something about it, and soon? And the ironic thing is, it doesn't even matter, since I have no way to survive, anyway? Video games have been used to tell stories for a long time now, but for some reason, the players are having less and less say in where those stories end up.
Honestly, I'd rather play a game with a bunch of different quest story lines involving different characters that I can send careening in whatever direction I want, without the baggage of "Do this or you/and or everyone you know will die". Why can't I just start the game as a nobody in Night City, and set my own goals? There was an old game called Pirate's Gold where you just sailed around and plundered ships and towns, and depending on how often you were injured and such, your abilities would start to go down and eventually you'd have to retire. Then you'd get a ranking of how legendary you were. I'd rather do that in Night City and try different tactics than this restrictive play and die, rinse and repeat.

 

[Pote1]

Well said! I'm the type of player that enjoys spending time building a character. I feel I was led to hope for some sort of positive resolution - but perhaps this is my psyche projecting onto V.

As a result, I can't return to try an alternate ending from a new character or revisit any of existing saves - given I know there's no possibility for a truly alternate ending. That would be no different than being V living in a 'copy'.

What is truly upsetting is that I surely won't be investing in any DLCs given this experience. RIP V... onto RDRII.

[PS: I played on Stadia and did not have any of the major bugs experienced on other platforms; so there is no negativity weighing on my opinion of the game - it was of good quality, even though there were a few side-gig bugs.]

Post automatically merged: Jan 26, 2021

I've got to totally agree with the OP's post. I hated the certain death in Red Dead, and I hate it here. For me, the way the story is designed removes any desire to play it again. To start with, I have to go through about 5 hours of predetermined gameplay to really open up the game. And then I have this main story that really should be the only thing I concentrate on. Why would I go get some shmuck's eye back for him or do ANY side missions when I have a chip in my head that is soon going to kill me if I don't do something about it, and soon? And the ironic thing is, it doesn't even matter, since I have no way to survive, anyway? Video games have been used to tell stories for a long time now, but for some reason, the players are having less and less say in where those stories end up.
Honestly, I'd rather play a game with a bunch of different quest story lines involving different characters that I can send careening in whatever direction I want, without the baggage of "Do this or you/and or everyone you know will die". Why can't I just start the game as a nobody in Night City, and set my own goals? There was an old game called Pirate's Gold where you just sailed around and plundered ships and towns, and depending on how often you were injured and such, your abilities would start to go down and eventually you'd have to retire. Then you'd get a ranking of how legendary you were. I'd rather do that in Night City and try different tactics than this restrictive play and die, rinse and repeat.

Oh jeeze, I was just about to start Red Dead and was hopeful for a more positive ending that CP. I echo your feelings and know Pirate's Gold. Guess I'll wait for Skyrim in another decade! LOL

 

[ravynwolvf]

Well said! I'm the type of player that enjoys spending time building a character. I feel I was led to hope for some sort of positive resolution - but perhaps this is my psyche projecting onto V.

As a result, I can't return to try an alternate ending from a new character or revisit any of existing saves - given I know there's no possibility for a truly alternate ending. That would be no different than being V living in a 'copy'.

What is truly upsetting is that I surely won't be investing in any DLCs given this experience. RIP V... onto RDRII.

[PS: I played on Stadia and did not have any of the major bugs experienced on other platforms; so there is no negativity weighing on my opinion of the game - it was of good quality, even though there were a few side-gig bugs.]

Post automatically merged: Jan 26, 2021

Edit Sorry, quoted wrong post

Post automatically merged: Jan 26, 2021

Well said! I'm the type of player that enjoys spending time building a character. I feel I was led to hope for some sort of positive resolution - but perhaps this is my psyche projecting onto V.

As a result, I can't return to try an alternate ending from a new character or revisit any of existing saves - given I know there's no possibility for a truly alternate ending. That would be no different than being V living in a 'copy'.

What is truly upsetting is that I surely won't be investing in any DLCs given this experience. RIP V... onto RDRII.

[PS: I played on Stadia and did not have any of the major bugs experienced on other platforms; so there is no negativity weighing on my opinion of the game - it was of good quality, even though there were a few side-gig bugs.]

Post automatically merged: Jan 26, 2021

Oh jeeze, I was just about to start Red Dead and was hopeful for a more positive ending that CP. I echo your feelings and know Pirate's Gold. Guess I'll wait for Skyrim in another decade! LOL

Didn't mean to spoil Red Dead for anyone, but yeah, similar, but totally different, situation (Redemption, anyway). It's at least useful to know what happens so you can plan side missions and exploration according to how you want to approach it before you put 60 hours into it.

 

[xOmaeka]

I think an option to keep things as they are would of been interesting. A way for V to of kept his body and mind, no terminal illness, and Johnny in his head. GTA 5 style character switching with the pills, and both of them being happy with the whole situation. I would of LOVED to interact with the characters in this game as Johnny, him and Panam would of had the funniest dialogue.

Panam: "Hey there, V!"
Johnny: "Nah, not V, he's taking a nap right now"
Panam: "Do you want me to slap him awake!? Get him out here now."
Johnny: "Nah, he's all tuckered out like a little puppy"
Panam: "Johnny!"

We got glimpses of it with Rogue, as underused as she was.

 

[sullyman83]

IRL our memories are memories of memories, we wake up as copies of our former selves every morning so from my point of view there is no distinction between soulkiller and any other temporary loss of consciousness.
There is however a huge distinction between Alt and the engrams, Johnny and engram V are still human or at least Johnny will be once he's spent more time with V.
Alt has a habit of leaving the body out of the equation which is why she is wrong about the soul being lost, it wasn't (IMO) soulkiller that rendered Alt inhuman but her lack of an external world, her human experiance came to end so she stopped being human.
For me, the soul is the whole, the marriage of the body and mind, the internal and the external, not some ghost in the drivers seat of meat suit.
Alt is dead and Saboro said the dead don't lie but that doesn't mean they can't be mistaken, when Misty said as long as you're alive there's hope, i chose to believe her and that's where the choice and agency is, in your perspective.

Post automatically merged: Jan 26, 2021

I think an option to keep things as they are would of been interesting. A way for V to of kept his body and mind, no terminal illness, and Johnny in his head. GTA 5 style character switching with the pills, and both of them being happy with the whole situation. I would of LOVED to interact with the characters in this game as Johnny, him and Panam would of had the funniest dialogue.

Panam: "Hey there, V!"
Johnny: "Nah, not V, he's taking a nap right now"
Panam: "Do you want me to slap him awake!? Get him out here now."
Johnny: "Nah, he's all tuckered out like a little puppy"
Panam: "Johnny!"

We got glimpses of it with Rogue, as underused as she was.

I think this is in the game, it's just very well hidden from players and script scrapers alike and can only be achieved when we fully understand the game, completing the tarot collection and understanding what they mean, realising there's a bit of Jackie in Johnny even though there minds only touched briefly, unlocking the missing attribute, the missing piece, playing with a full deck.
Or cut content.

 

[Hammerstein]

Already said it in other threads - but this here is when the wheels fly off the story vehicle and where it becomes unsalvageable.

So I gotta die? You gonna zap me with Soulkiller in Mikoshi?

Great plan. LET'S DO IT!!!

 

[Yllana_Ardais]

Already said it in other threads - but this here is when the wheels fly off the story vehicle and where it becomes unsalvageable.

So I gotta die? You gonna zap me with Soulkiller in Mikoshi?

Great plan. LET'S DO IT!!!

View attachment 11157473

Well, I mean, if you treat Soulkiller as just a way to digitalize your psyche and assume that after 5 minutes in Cyberspace you can safely reupload your psyche into your brain, then it makes perfect sense for V to react that way. Of course if you believe in some kind of soul that exists independently from your psyche, then you are fucked. Maybe they should have given V a way to express these two different views.
It's all moot anyway with the 11th hour plot cancer.

 

[Hammerstein]

Well, I mean, if you treat Soulkiller as just a way to digitalize your psyche and assume that after 5 minutes in Cyberspace you can safely reupload your psyche into your brain, then it makes perfect sense for V to react that way. Of course if you believe in some kind of soul that exists independently from your psyche, then you are fucked. Maybe they should have given V a way to express these two different views.
It's all moot anyway with the 11th hour plot cancer.

Hanako lies to you, when she promises to save your sorry ass. Takemura also lies (or does not know any better cause he had been drinking the Arasaka Kool-Aid for too long) when he implies the same in the diner scene - Takemura can't even work his own phone, what does he know about tech.

AI Alt lies to you - the super powerful AI, that can bring down satellites and take over Arasaka tower within seconds, somehow didn't make the right calculations? Really?

Also, no one ever came out of Mikoshi or had their engram placed in a body. V is the first one. So none of the characters who make all these promises to you, can be any sure. Yet our character is forced to believe them, cause the game offers no alternatives and does not let us call them out for their bullshit.

There is no reason to believe a lying, cheating, stealing, killing megacorp like Arasaka anything. Especially when it comes to outlandish promises like being able to make a perfect copy of your consciousness.

If I have the choice between the real thing, namely original V. And a computer generated copy of said V, then I will always prefer the original.

Also it's obvious that the process is borked: in the glory ending your love interest tells you that "you have changed".

And if you give your body to Johnny he suddenly no longer cares about Arasaka, his love for Rogue or his passion for Samurai. He just gets on a bus and leaves town.

 

[nadsh]

Also it's obvious that the process is borked: in the glory ending your love interest tells you that "you have changed".

And if you give your body to Johnny he suddenly no longer cares about Arasaka, his love for Rogue or his passion for Samurai. He just gets on a bus and leaves town.

Depends on how you played V before the ending. My V was always a mid asshole, in the Sun she just seemed more depressed.
Rogue doesn't want to see Johnny anymore if he gets V's body and he seems to feel guilty about getting the body in the first place. Seemed like an evolution of his previous character development, Kerry doesn't need him and he has no friends left.

 

[Hammerstein]

In that ending Arasaka is damaged from the attack on Mikoshi and Johnny could hurt them even further if he really wanted to bring down the corp that killed Alt, V and (in one of the endings) Rogue.

Instead he runs...

 

[Rensarvik]

Hanako lies to you, when she promises to save your sorry ass. Takemura also lies (or does not know any better cause he had been drinking the Arasaka Kool-Aid for too long) when he implies the same in the diner scene - Takemura can't even work his own phone, what does he know about tech.

I wouldn't say Takemura lies in diner. Obviously he knows nothing about chip's technical side, but his argument that Arasaka know the most about the chip, and therefore have the best ability to help V, is a very reasonable assumption to make.

 

[nadsh]

He was already an engram after Mikoshi though, why should being hit by SK again change him?

He's definitely more passive than I expected but it can be depression/survivor's guilt, he didn't seem completely out of character to me. With V it's different but I chalk it up to the epilogues being rushed, you don't get to choose anything after the rooftop decision. Mine was in character in the Sun and completely ooc in the Star.

 

[Guest 4412420]

Also it's obvious that the process is borked: in the glory ending your love interest tells you that "you have changed".

I don't think this has anything to do with the process being borked because (correct me if I'm wrong) no one says anything of sort in the Star ending. So, why should it be different if the process V goes through is the same?

You could argue that V letting Johnny take the wheel in the Sun ending somehow contributes to it but if you do the secret ending and V is in control throughout the whole thing, LIs say the exact same thing as in the regular Sun ending.

 

[Hammerstein]

Well, the thing is that no one ever had an engram created with Soulkiller transferred into a body. V is the first and Saburo is the second.

Yet at the same time AI Alt tells us that it's no problem. But then AI Alt screws up and the resulting V Engram only has 6 months to live, if we decide to keep our body.

So the only "successful" example would be Saburo taking over Yorinobu's body and Johnny. We only see Saburo on tv and cannot tell if he really functions like the original Saburo. And Johnny is definitely changed.

 

[Mushashi7]

What can I add? I haven't proceeded beyond 'The Point Of No Return' because I found out V couldn't be saved. My game is locked because I don't like the endings provided.

I only hope CDPR swallows some of their pride, so to speak, and implements new option somehow. Be it in a DLC or a few minor changes to the existing endings.

I'm also as many others left back with the feeling the game has no point for me. I had never expected the endings to be so entirely negative and dark. With six (7) endings at least one or two should have given the option for a good ending.

Now, what I hope is that some of the many suggestions for other endings will be taken seriously by CDPR.
Someone suggested V could be saved by new technology made by Biotech. It could also be a good one.

Personally I was thinking about something more tricky already provided in the game material already:

I was thinking about the chip she inserted. The chip containing Johnny.
If the chip is able to implement an engram it must be a very sophisticated piece of high-tech, right? A chip like that has to have a lot of software for use in the process. It is able to invade and change a human brain. It is told that it was ment to invade a dead/empty brain. But in V's case Johnny was able to revive her. How is that possible unless the chip has software enabling Johnny to do so. I can hardly believe Johnny studied as a brain surgeon or something like that. So, it must be the chip that enables him to revive V.
The chip is able to change the human brain. But does it matter what is changed? Why couldn't the software be used to restore V instead? Meaning she has to live with the chip perhaps, but still.
Johnny could simply be persuaded to leave the chip and V's brain again? That could be an option. Or maybe Arasaka could remove Johnny. They build it after all.

 

[ViNN_NNiV6]

I remembered about the end I've got (Hanako's path) then I searched about the necklace that V removes in the very end, then I found this about the endings.... and I found this thread.

I've only got one ending, but I've found about the others and they don't look much better for me...

Personally, I factored into the story (unlike the game) that my V was an ex Corpo, so I decided to make choices that would allign to what he was, or tried to, so This ending, I guess I interpreted differently than others, and it's a bad ending for me for other reasons.


It starts to go downhill when V meets the last time with Johnny, then I've got a dialogue with a pissed Johnny and he said that what matter is the principles and how I picked a wrong choice when DeShawn asked V before hiring him for the (soon to fail) heist.

Like....

The entire story, as others have noted, is clearly about V wanting to survive, and then in the end, all of a sudden apparently, V wanted to be the Legend of Night City and choosing to side with Arasaka betrayed not Johnny, who "wanted" to burn them, but V himself (who was a Corpo, I've kept that). The entire story up to that point was to prevent V from losing his "soul" then *turns 180°* "you botched the takeover for Glory and you backstabbed the memory of your friend!", V also hallucinates with Jackies body, just indicating me that what he *actually* wanted was to become the superstar in the name of his fallen friend, not remove the relic and remain as V, and maybe honor jackie by living a second better life.

That's how I see this ending, it's bad because it "fullfils" the story and yet it betrays the character, of V.... somehow. It's what V wanted, with apparently no side effects (it seems this Soulkiller that I may know about (used in johnny and, possibly, Alt before) but don't remember, is not used in this ending, after all, if Saburo was made into an engram that would mean that they know how to *not* kill someone during "virtualization" or they did kill him before bringing him back, which was what may have happened with V too, but it's got complicated now, idk).

About the six month to live.... I have a "headcannonical"explanation, so to say, for that, sort of....

After V wakes up in space, he's put into many tests, one of it was this "say whatever is in your mind the moment you hear these words". In basically every prompt, "Johnny" and "Arasaka" would come up, and the words were like "Ire", "Death", "Betrayal", and such.

I believed that it wasn't to make sure that he was recovering, but whether or not Johnny was still there, like, if they managed to keep V in there or if johnny was in the hiding, or whether V was corrupted by Johnny, and ultimately would become a threat to them, and repeat the attack that johnny did but much worse.


They dealt with Johnny before, they would deal with V if necessary.

But because V was in the good... "good" side with them, he earned some goodwill with Hanako and helped put Saburo "back" in the corporation even, they decided to say that he has only 6 months to live. A ruse. To nudge V into being ..."virtualized" (what is the verb for becoming an Engram??), or let him loose in the world, but making him ...mindful about his "short" life. Hanako even offers him some job, maybe to tighten the leash a bit more (also he was a Corpo, I'm compounding that too)


It may be a spotty conjecture, but that's just my interpretation. Considering that everything happening onscreen is As Is.

It's still bad, I was going to make another playthrough as Streetkid and, maybe side more with Johnny, but after all that I played and learned, I'm leaving it to accumulate virtual dust on my disk for now.

I also expected to continue *after" the ending.

 

[lyin321]

[/QUOTE]

New V does not matter. The character I cared about is dead at that point.

...so you create the character and then immediately quit the game?

To me, we are all constantly (or maybe not quite constantly) leaving our 'original' selves behind and continue as a copy of it with new memories and everything else that comes from them. As after all (imo ofcourse) that is what makes a human human. Although I also agree with an earlier post that Alt stopped being human, not because she became an engram (or not mainly at least), but because she was forced to exist in an entirely different environment.

With the Arasaka/devil ending, I am not sure Hanako lied. V is just too useful a tool (dying V did kill/beat Adam Smasher) to let go. I am sure in few years (or earlier)/expansion they will make V a new body (with a lot of strings attached)