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Suggestion: Balancing tutoring; the gold problem

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Archan6el

User
#1
Ever since silver cards disappeared, tutors like Fringilla Vigo, Keira Metz and even the leader Francesca Findabair can (re)play the most powerful gold legendary special cards or spells, like for example Korathi Heatwave, Royal Decree, Renew, and Hanmarvyn's Blue Dream. This seems not well balanced and was not possible before HC. Therefore my suggestion is to implement silver cards again, allowing for better balancing of card interactions and creation of more specific card interactions with future updates.
 

4RM3D

Moderator
#2
Therefore my suggestion is to implement silver cards again, allowing for better balancing of card interactions and creation of more specific card interactions with future updates.
Silver cards are no longer needed for that, now that we have provisions. Summon-related abilities can be limited based on the provision cost. For Francesca, the provision limit could be 12, for example.
 

Archan6el

User
#3
Silver cards are no longer needed for that, now that we have provisions. Summon-related abilities can be limited based on the provision cost. For Francesca, the provision limit could be 12, for example.
The best is a combination I think. The different colors are already there in the left top corner, indicating rarity. A clear colored border is easier to see and play with than a provision number. In addition using rarity/border color can allow for more sophisticated balancing of (faction-) specific card interactions/tutoring based on a combination of provision cost and color. But right now it's completely missing, so anything would be better.
 

4RM3D

Moderator
#4
But rarity is not a measurement of strength, which is most obvious by comparing Golden Froth, the most expensive bronze, even topping a lot of gold cards. So, even when you make epic cards silver again, you cannot use them to balance anything because rarity does not equal quality (strength).

You talk about more sophisticated balancing, but that's precisely the purpose of the provision system, even though it's underused now. I don't understand why you are so focused on silver cards. Gameplay-wise, there is no difference between legendary and epic cards. As such, making epic cards silver again, would only be confusing because it doesn't denote anything special, nor can it be as mentioned in the previous paragraph. As it stands now, gold cards are unique, while bronze cards aren't. And silver cards have become obsolete.
 

Archan6el

User
#5
Isn’t strength the number on the card for units? So perhaps it’s better to talk about overall value instead of strength. Rarity is a broader indication of overall value, while provision cost is a more specific indication. Almost all high provision cards are legendary or epic. It also makes sense for high value cards to be rare. With HC, the cards and mechanics have changed so much from beta that several cards that used to be lower value are now high value. Golden Froth is an example.

Taking Fringilla Vigo (an epic card) with a limitation to tutor cards of 12 provisions or lower as example, this means that she cannot tutor the bronze Golden Froth and the gold Renew and Korathi Heatwave (both 13 provisions), but she can still tutor all lower provision golds (Royal Decree, Hanmarvyn's Blue Dream, Muzzle, Yennefer's Invocation, Uma's Curse). This seems still too strong. More sophisticated would be a combination: Give her a silver limit and if needed also a provision limit and then this is solved. Then, with a provision limit of 11 for example, she can tutor the epic/silver Alzur's Double Cross (10 provisions), but not the legendary/gold Hanmarvyn's Blue Dream (10 provisions) and also not the epic/silver Dragon's Dream (12 provisions).
 

4RM3D

Moderator
#6
Isn’t strength the number on the card for units? So perhaps it’s better to talk about overall value instead of strength.
Overall value or points, yes.

It also makes sense for high value cards to be rare. With HC, the cards and mechanics have changed so much from beta that several cards that used to be lower value are now high value. Golden Froth is an example.
This only makes my argument stronger that rarity doesn't equal quality.

Rarity is a broader indication of overall value, while provision cost is a more specific indication. Almost all high provision cards are legendary or epic.
And here is were it all comes crumbling down. Like I have mentioned countless times now, rarity is not an indication of anything related to the gameplay and it shouldn't be, either. You've got legendary cards as cheap as 7 provisions. That most legendary cards are more expensive is still not a good indication, nor a tool for balancing.

Provisions is meant as a balancing tool. That means a bronze 10 provision card should be stronger than gold 9 provision card, so you don't need rarity to make a distinction. That some cards are too strong for their provision costs, is something that needs to be fixed by increasing their provisions (or decreasing their overall value), but not by abusing rarity for something it wasn't meant for. So, in the end, provision caps for tutors should balance everything out.

Closing note: Just let it got. While Silver cards made sense in beta, because of the deck limit, they no longer serves a purpose in Homecoming.
 

_Kili_

User
#7
On the matter of silver cards, they could reintroduce silvers as cards you can have 2 of in a deck, and give bronzes back the 3rd copy.
Boom, additional balancing tool created.
 

Archan6el

User
#8
This only makes my argument stronger that rarity doesn't equal quality.
Rarity used to give a broad indication of overall value and it still does. There is a strong positive correlation between rarity and overall value. And that makes sense. Otherwise, why would a card be legendary if it is low value/quality?

Provisions is meant as a balancing tool. That means a bronze 10 provision card should be stronger than gold 9 provision card, so you don't need rarity to make a distinction. That some cards are too strong for their provision costs, is something that needs to be fixed by increasing their provisions (or decreasing their overall value), but not by abusing rarity for something it wasn't meant for. So, in the end, provision caps for tutors should balance everything out.
So this requires all cards to be assessed and to be given the proper amount of provisions, taking into account and working on tutoring simultaneously. That would be really good, but that clearly hasn't been done yet. And that made me think about the silver cards and silver tutoring limitation from beta.

Provisions make perfect sense to me, but I'm not fully convinced that they are the complete solution. With a growing amount of cards, you may need to use an extra indication (rarity) to allow for more sophisticated balancing (as described above), or to increase (and complicate) the provision cost range in order to fit all cards in the range somewhere. To be seen I guess.
 

4RM3D

Moderator
#9
On the matter of silver cards, they could reintroduce silvers as cards you can have 2 of in a deck, and give bronzes back the 3rd copy.
If CDPR would do this, then the distinction between silver and gold would be relevant again.

Rarity used to give a broad indication of overall value and it still does. There is a strong positive correlation between rarity and overall value. And that makes sense. Otherwise, why would a card be legendary if it is low value/quality?
Oh, there is definitely a correlation, but just not one that works for all cards individually. Certain epic cards are stronger than legendary cards and plenty of common cards are stronger than rare cards.