Suggestion: Implement mulligan blacklisting again

[Archan6el]

Please bring mulligan blacklisting back. This means that when you mulligan a card in a mulligan phase, you cannot draw it or its copies again in that specific mulligan phase. This was shortly mentioned in the roadmap overview live stream of 12 December. It was mentioned that "blacklisting was more useful when you had 3 bronzes. With 2 bronzes, it might not be necessary to bring it back, but we'll see. If it actually turns into an issue or we feel like ... it is really needed or the community really wants it ... we'll definitely revisit".

Blacklisting may have been more useful with 3 bronzes, but it is also very useful with 2 bronzes to mulligan away low strength "filler cards" and/or to find that specific card. The absence of blacklisting introduces more RNG in mulligans. What was the motivation behind removing blacklisting?

Unless I am mistaken, it seems that with no blacklisting, the card that has just been mulliganed away can be drawn again in the next mulligan of the same round. I had this happen twice during 4 mulligans in round 3, with 6 cards still left in deck. End result: same hand after 4 mulligans. And there was only one copy of this card. This is not fun. It shouldn't be possible that the net result of 4 mulligans is nothing, should it?

So, I'm wondering how much support there is in the community to bring blacklisting back. What do you think?

Edit: Added a short explanation about mulligan blacklisting.

 

[devivre]

I think that blacklisting would do more good than harm

 

[M_Khan]

I fail to understand what the downside of blacklisting is. What does a lack of blacklisting add to the game? I mean its not like this is a new change that we are asking cdpr to add to the game, blacklisting was already there, it prevented people from having redraws wasted, it was a good mechanic cdpr thought were worthy of being in the game for over 2 years. So what is the issue with asking for it? Why does there need to be filtering process for us to prove that it is something good that needs to be part of Gwent? Its already been through the process and has been part of a game that it helped make better/fun/successful. Please re-add it. It would only help and not harm, it didnt make much sense to remove it and as far as I know there is no negative consequence to it. Please bring it back cdpr, it is very frustrating wasting 2 redraws to draw the same card again and feel like you've been cheated, it doesn't make people want to play a round where they have been screwed over by the redraw screen. Its something that will help you improve the game. Hope someone sees this and talks it over with the developers.

 

[sfruzz]

Bring back blacklisting and since we are at it, bring back the third bronze card!

 

[Archan6el]

Bring back blacklisting and since we are at it, bring back the third bronze card!

Two bronzes I don't mind so much, but just a bit more tutors would be nice. Right now it happens too often that your mulligans are worthless due to the absence of blacklisting. Just lost a few games again because of this. Three mulligans with 6 cards left in the deck and none of the three cards you want are drawn. This type of RNG is not fun for me.

 

[Guest 4322057]

Two bronzes I don't mind so much, but just a bit more tutors would be nice. Right now it happens too often that your mulligans are worthless due to the absence of blacklisting. Just lost a few games again because of this. Three mulligans with 6 cards left in the deck and none of the three cards you want are drawn. This type of RNG is not fun for me.

Having three bronzes to me is important for deck synergy. Blacklisting should also make a return, as do many times I feel like I’ve lost just by getting shafted so hard by bad draws.

Their is a reason almost all decks run the Witcher Trio and Roach, as it’s the only way to have some chance of getting better cards later on. A few more tutors would be nice, but it’s hard to find a balance between autopilot decks that benefit from excessive tutoring vs. bad opening hands that make you lose with no tutoring

 

[Archan6el]

Having three bronzes to me is important for deck synergy. Blacklisting should also make a return, as do many times I feel like I’ve lost just by getting shafted so hard by bad draws.

Their is a reason almost all decks run the Witcher Trio and Roach, as it’s the only way to have some chance of getting better cards later on. A few more tutors would be nice, but it’s hard to find a balance between autopilot decks that benefit from excessive tutoring vs. bad opening hands that make you lose with no tutoring

There are already quite some synergies and/or bronze engines. I think implementing blacklisting and a few tutors would be enough to do the trick (and not go to far to autopilot decks).

 

[Archan6el]

Bump. Please bring back blacklisting. Game mechanics should work to create fun and "feel-good" satisfaction. Drawing the same copy of the card you just mulliganed does exactly the opposite and is just annoying. I don't understand why this mechanic from beta was not continued in HC. Just shuffle the mulliganed card and the potential draw-skipped, black-listed copy of it back into the deck. As there are only two bronze copies, blacklisting will provide only limited additional deck consistency, but it will improve the overall feeling of game mechanics a lot, just like the mulligan update did early this year.

 

[Alexander_Volgin]

Cant believe that this thread doesent have more support. A mechanic that improves consistency of the draws and sets both you and the opponents at an equal spot during the last round (each of you draw exact what you need based on how well you managed the resources in prior rounds), and not on the mercy of RNG.

Just cant mention a single deck that wont benefit from it. Remember Freyas blessing and sigfridas rite ? Nothing more annoying than redrawing these cards in first round after mulligans.
Also opens up options on how well you can manage your resources, as mulligan a gold, might actually not be that bad, when it's only useful in later rounds.

A more skill-based game ? YES PLEASE.

Also. The reason why this thread doesent have so many viewers is because people dont know or forgot what blacklisting is. Renaming this thread will attract more attetion and more debate. Which ultimately may lead to a change.

Lets rename it Blacklisting and Prevalence of Net-decks or something like this.

Basically, you cannot play any wierd combo decks, because if you draw your combo round 1, its useless, and you either get bled or are forced to play out your winning condition. If you save them for later, you might actually surprise your opponent which will win you the game. Thus encouraging innovative thinking in deckbuilding. People just dont do this, because Net-decks are well optimised, consistent and less frustrating to play in the current mulligan system we have.

 

[MeCosmos]

I started playing like a month before HC came out, so i didnt really know much back then, but sometimes it feels like blaklisting could be usefull.

I had a match recently in which i have drawn 2 bronzes which had to be in the deck in order to pull of a combo, so naturally i had to mulligan them away. On round 2 start, i have drawn both of those cards again, so again mulligans wasted, r3 start the same... Guess what happened, i lost bcs i had no mulligans left to try to get my combo pieces. That doesnt happen often, but its incredibly infuriating to lose bcs of bad draws.

 

[Moors-]

I can see a comeback of blacklisting, if the draws between rounds will be changed to 2-2, 3-2 or 2-3 as well.

 

[MaxisZ]

Archan6el completely agree.
It seems only motivation behind removing blacklisting was give a chance to weak decks with extra RNG !
So this is an attempt to mask balance issues ...

 

[MysticJoey]

Maybe earlier this was reasonable. Now decks are actually too consistent. This whole idea of blacklisting would never work in non virtual card game (you would have to show to your opponent the card you were mulliganing and the one you got, which is stupid). I mean cmon, the card is in your deck, you draw it, deal with it.

 

[Alexander_Volgin]

Maybe earlier this was reasonable. Now decks are actually too consistent. This whole idea of blacklisting would never work in non virtual card game (you would have to show to your opponent the card you were mulliganing and the one you got, which is stupid). I mean cmon, the card is in your deck, you draw it, deal with it.

All of the decks that are consistent run tutors. Provisions 8-22 that potentially could be allocated to certain combos if the game actually was consistent, despite your claim. Some decks have a good portion of provisions allocated to certain combos, which arent event guaranteed to be drawn each game. Luck of the draw, that doesent sound like a competitive card game to me.

Now lets have some thoughts about what would happen if you filled your hand with the cards you wanted. Its hard to say, but we could atleast be given a beta patch to try out before making our final mind on the subject. One thing is certain. The game will be more competitive.

 

[Archan6el]

Maybe earlier this was reasonable. Now decks are actually too consistent. This whole idea of blacklisting would never work in non virtual card game (you would have to show to your opponent the card you were mulliganing and the one you got, which is stupid). I mean cmon, the card is in your deck, you draw it, deal with it.

I don't get your arguments. You write blacklisting "would never work in non virtual card game". That's clearly irrelevant for Gwent. With only two bronze copies, decks are not consistent at all: a lot depends on which cards you draw and, very importantly, in which round you draw them and in which combination with other cards. That's a lot of draw-RNG right there. Specific hyperthin decks can reduce draw-RNG, but they rely heavily on draw-RNG in the first place to draw the right cards for the thinning combo in round 1, introducing additional risk of bricking the hand. So even a hyperthin deck cannot be played consistently. On top of that, tutors are quite expensive and provide few points of their own.

Mechanically, drawing the same card that you just mulliganed simply feels really bad. Mulligan blacklisting is a great mechanic to improve overall feel and strategic aspect of the game by reducing draw-RNG a bit.

 

[SkiZophreniC]

Blacklisting is already implemented. You cannot draw a card you've just mulligan'. This topic is kinda pointless...

(Eventually you may draw it in a later round. I don't see any problem in that)

 

[Moors-]

Blacklisting is already implemented. You cannot draw a card you've just mulligan'. This topic is kinda pointless...

(Eventually you may draw it in a later round. I don't see any problem in that)

Blacklisting we are talking about in this tread means that you cannot draw the card you've just mulliganed and all copies of it.

 

[BoYoDes]

Slama explained this few months ago and pointed why the blacklisiting will not make its comeback - basically when they made the mechanic it introduced "the mulligan bug" into the game and it was an effect that they could not fix. I think with 2 Bronze copies and the more accessible ways to thin your deck lately, I don't miss it that much, while before Crimson Curse it was a hell to play sometimes.

 

[Archan6el]

Slama explained this few months ago and pointed why the blacklisiting will not make its comeback - basically when they made the mechanic it introduced "the mulligan bug" into the game and it was an effect that they could not fix. I think with 2 Bronze copies and the more accessible ways to thin your deck lately, I don't miss it that much, while before Crimson Curse it was a hell to play sometimes.

It's not a bug, but an effect (as you wrote) based on the mechanic. That also means that there's nothing to fix, so if it was communicated in the way you wrote above, I would find that misleading. The mechanic can be implemented in different ways (a nice read here). My preference would be to put the mulliganed and blacklisted card back in the deck at random positions.

 

[Weatherdragon21]

RNG is good for card games. The most strategic card games out there need it. It forces you to take risks, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Most importantly makes every game /different/. Gwent already has one of the least draw-RNGs out of all card games (access to half your entire deck from the get go). Ya it sucks sometimes but you make it work if you want a win. If you absolutely cannot win because of that RNG, the problem is your deck, or your mulligan choices, not RNG. Games like magic are very strategic without blacklisting, a much more punishing mulligan system, much greater reliance on types of cards you need to draw(even balance of lands and creatures) and far less access to your deck.