Suggestion: Mill archetipe

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I'm sure we all know very well how obnoxious mill can be. I don't want mill to completly disappear, but in it's current state, i would rather see it dead than viable in casual.
So this is my idea how to "fix" mill archetipe.

What is wrong with mill?
Simply put: it's poorly implemented and overall under-developed, which leads to unhealthy interactions with other play-styles.
Mill in Gwent is implemented in the same way as in any other card game = mill the top (random) card. The problem is that Gwent is fundamentally different from those games. Gwent deck has less cards and every card is more important, on top of that Gwent has provisions instead of mana. So the idea, to do it the same way MTG (and other games) does it, makes no sense.
How to fix it?
I think the best way to improve mill in Gwent is to connect it to the provision system.
Currently mill cards are balanced around their low tempo, which creates an unhealthy play-style - if mill gets access to some legit R1 tempo, it becomes a nightmare to play against; and now that Kolgrim is a thing, going for 2:0 is not that easy. Also low prov mill cards can provide (often randomly) insane carryover by removing some important high prov card.
So 1.: Kolgrim should only work if you have less cards in deck than your opponent.
2.: Milling should not be random.
3.: Mill cards should not be able to hit something lot more expensive then they are.
and 4.: Mill archetipe should have more "non-mill" support and higher tempo.

In adition to Kolgrim, here are the reworks that IMO could make mill less toxic and more viable.:

Keyword: Mill
Move a card from a deck to it's owners graveyard.

Kingslayer
Prov.: 5
Power: 5
Deploy: Reveal the top cards from your opponent's deck until you reveal 3 bronze cards or a gold cards with provision cost 6 or less, than choose a bronze card or a gold card with provision cost 6 or less and Mill it.
Note: Kingslayer's purpose is to Mill for the sake of Milling, not to randomly remove opponent's best card. You're choosing one out of 3 cards to compensate for not beeing able to mill a good card.

Traheaern
Prov.: 7
Power: 5
Deploy: Reveal the top cards from your opponent's deck until you reveal 3 gold cards with provision cost 9 or less, than choose a card with provision cost 9 or less and Mill it.
Note: Traheaern is supposed to hit something actually good, but, just like Kingslayer, not the best.

Warrit
Prov.: 12
Power: 7
Order: Reveal a random card from your opponent's deck with provision cost 11 or more, than choose to Mill that card or Mill the top 2 cards from your opponents deck with provision cost 10 or less.
Note: This is the big one, that can seriously mess up your opponents game plan. Even if your opponent gets lucky and has all his high prov golds in hand, Warrit won't brick. Order restriction gives the opponent a chance interact, but high base power requires an expensive answer.

Cantarella
Prov.: 7
Power: 1
Disloyal
Deploy: Reveal the top cards from your opponent's deck until you reveal a gold card with provision cost 8 or less, than choose a card with provision cost 8 or less, Mill it, than spawn and and play a copy of it.

Isbel
Prov.: 9
Power: 5
Order (Ranged): Look at the top card of your deck and reveal the top card from your opponents deck with provision cost 10 or less, put one in your hand and the other one in your opponent's hand.

Stregobor
Prov.: 7
Power: 6
After 2 allied turns, both player will draw the top unit from their decks and damage it by 6 (or set its power to 1 if the unit's power is 6 or less).
Note: Stregobor is not as oppressive as other mill cards, so small buff to his survivability doesn't hurt, as long as he's not turning Speartip into 1p play.

Ofiri Merchant
Prov.: 4
Power: 4
Whenever the amount of cards in either deck changes during your turn, boost self by 1.
Note: Random swapping is just as toxic as random milling. Plus i think this change would make for an interesting engine.

Operator
Prov.: 7
Power: 4
Armor: 2
Whenever the amount of cards in either deck changes during your turn, boost self by 2.
Note: I'm not sure about reworking Operator, he's very unique and i like that, but the interaction with Kingslayer could be pretty toxic.

Viper Witcher Alchemist
Prov.: 5
Power: 5
Deploy: Look at the top 3 cards of your deck, choose one and put it on top of your opponent's deck, than spawn a copy of the top card from your opponents deck, that is from their starting deck, on top of your deck.
Note: Better support for Brick archetipe instead of mill.

Courier
Prov.: 4
Power: 4
Deploy (Melee): Look at the top 5 cards from your opponent's deck and put them back in any order.
Deploy (Ranged): Look at the top 5 cards of your deck and put them back in any order.

Combat Engineer
Prov.: 5
Power: 5
Deploy: Booset self by 1 for every card you Milled this game.
Melee: Whenever you Mill a card, damage a random enemy unit by 1.
Ranged: Whenever you Mill a card, boost self by 1.

Spotter
Prov.: 5
Power: 1
Deploy: Boost self by the provision cost of the last card you Milled.

Cadaverine
Prov.: 7
Order: Destroy self and play a copy of a card you milled this game with provision cost lower or equal to Cadaverine's charge count.
Every allied turn, on turn start, and whenever you mill a card gain a charge.
Deploy: Gain a charge for every card you milled this game.
 
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That said. The strategies against mill are already said, like doing a 2-0. If you always struggle with this kind of decks, maybe yours are lacking of some cards. For example, it could be you didn't have enough removals or other type of control cards; or maybe you have to focuse on gain more points rhan the adversary; or add some tutors.
My advice is analyze the weakness of your deck and try to suply it. I'm pretty sure if you always have problems with mill you also struggle with others strategies too, which means you should adjust something.
What I said doesn't mean I always win against them; not at all, but it doesn't seems to me that is such a strong archetype. I find vy much more complicate to deal with it.
 
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Mill is very effective only against decks that extensively thin — and as such is not only balanced, but is an essential part of maintaining balance. No single strategy (such a maximal thinning) should be universally good in a balanced and diverse game.
 
Mmmm when we speak about mill are we including reverse mill too? I do because they are quite similar and in this case tutors are really useful :shrug:😅
 
Well, it's difficult to reply to such a comment because you simply deny the truth to people who doesn't think as you do. Which is a lovely way to abort an interesting discussion.
That said. The strategies against mill are already said, like doing a 2-0. If you always struggle with this kind of decks, maybe yours are lacking of some cards. For example, it could be you didn't have enough removals or other type of control cards; or maybe you have to focuse on gain more points rhan the adversary; or add some tutors.
My advice is analyze the weakness of your deck and try to suply it. I'm pretty sure if you always have problems with mill you also struggle with others strategies too, which means you should adjust something.
What I said doesn't mean I always win against them; not at all, but it doesn't seems to me that is such a strong archetype. I find vy much more complicate to deal with it.
I dunno where i said i always have problem with mill decks.

Can you show me in my post? Thank you

Also The strategy against mill everyone knows it, its only goes to 2:0.

But for now The mill archthetype with kolgrim has more consistent and its not that easy wins 2:0, specialy If you have to use all your cards in round One and your tall counter (korathi or geralt or other cards) have milled in round One.

So its The binary or you have a tall counter to beats kolgrim in round 2 or you lose The game
 
I dunno where i said i always have problem with mill decks.

Can you show me in my post? Thank you

Also The strategy against mill everyone knows it, its only goes to 2:0.

But for now The mill archthetype with kolgrim has more consistent and its not that easy wins 2:0, specialy If you have to use all your cards in round One and your tall counter (korathi or geralt or other cards) have milled in round One.

So its The binary or you have a tall counter to beats kolgrim in round 2 or you lose The game
100% agree. Before Kolgrim, mill was easy to deal with, but now you just have to get lucky to stand a chance, or not thin at all.
 
100% agree. Before Kolgrim, mill was easy to deal with, but now you just have to get lucky to stand a chance, or not thin at all.
This means that it is a working archetype, finally.
Previously it was a niche, something fun, but rarely effective. things got definitely better with consistency, which means the deck slowly advanced from being a semi-meme deck to become a Tier3-4 option.
Absolutely fine in my opinion.
 
This means that it is a working archetype, finally.
Previously it was a niche, something fun, but rarely effective. things got definitely better with consistency, which means the deck slowly advanced from being a semi-meme deck to become a Tier3-4 option.
Absolutely fine in my opinion.
Absolutely not fine.
As i said, in it's current state i would rather see mill dead than casualy viable. The fact that it is working is not a good thing at all. Mill in its current form is as toxic as it gets. Mill is basicaly removal and the only way of protecting yourself from it is getting lucky and drawing the right cards in R1, so the core design is absolutely awful.
 
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The only part of my post which specific refers to you was the first parragraph. The rest was an answer to the general complain.
That said, if you have no problems with, why you wajt you change them? If this archetype now it's viable and there is people who like it that's good news because it means there is a NEW option to play this game. Just because you find it annoying it's not reason to obliterate something most of the people it's fine with. :beer:
 
Absolutely not fine.
As i said, in it's current state i would rather see mill dead than casualy viable. The fact that it is working is not a good thing at all. Mill in its current form is as toxic as it gets. Mill is basicaly removal and the only way of protecting yourself from it is getting lucky and drawing the right cards in R1, so the core design is absolutely awful.
You are entitled to have your opinion on the deck, but with all due respect, that does not make it "not good at all".

Seriously, if people would stop playing decks others called toxic/<insert random trendy rant>, we would be left with next to nothing to play with/against. You don't like it, which is fine. I for example find it an interesting alternative compared to many cookie-cutter buff/swarm/damage decks. It requires different playstyle from both players, which already is a good thing in my book.
As long as a decktype doesn't become overly dominant in a given meta (from which Mill is ages away), it simply adds to the diversity of decks available for players to compete with. Variety is always good in games like this.
 
You are entitled to have your opinion on the deck, but with all due respect, that does not make it "not good at all".

Seriously, if people would stop playing decks others called toxic/<insert random trendy rant>, we would be left with next to nothing to play with/against. You don't like it, which is fine. I for example find it an interesting alternative compared to many cookie-cutter buff/swarm/damage decks. It requires different playstyle from both players, which already is a good thing in my book.
As long as a decktype doesn't become overly dominant in a given meta (from which Mill is ages away), it simply adds to the diversity of decks available for players to compete with. Variety is always good in games like this.
I agree with you that mill is unique, interesting and shouldn't just disappear. But in it's current form, mill is far from OK. The fact that it's not meta, doesn't mean, it should stay the way it is.
One day i would love to see mill as a legit, meta, non-toxic archetipe. The mill archetipe we have now is none of those things.
 
What its really important its The OP gives a lot of suggetion to change The mill archetetype, including buffying some cards and transform it less toxic and unfair.

Its unfair a 6 provision card can mill your Best card and there is nothing you can do, i know there is some cards with 6 provision wich kill, reset or other things The Best cards, but thoses case are "inside" The game and you can try to do things to avoid that.

But in mill there is nothing you can do, its total Lucky dependence.

So, The OP doesnt whant to kill The archetetype, Just give some ideias to change The cards and not be so toxic as it is now
 
What its really important its The OP gives a lot of suggetion to change The mill archetetype, including buffying some cards and transform it less toxic and unfair.

Its unfair a 6 provision card can mill your Best card and there is nothing you can do, i know there is some cards with 6 provision wich kill, reset or other things The Best cards, but thoses case are "inside" The game and you can try to do things to avoid that.

But in mill there is nothing you can do, its total Lucky dependence.

So, The OP doesnt whant to kill The archetetype, Just give some ideias to change The cards and not be so toxic as it is now
Right, so let us see the suggestions in a bit more detail.

First, we cannot have an effect that says "xyz after you Milled a card". Mill in itself is not an effect in Gwent, it is used by the community to describe the situation of losing a card from your deck one way or another. This includes Discard, Draw, and Played by the opponent as well - all very different scenarios.
If you would change these cards as you propose, the biggest effect would be to seriously buff card draw engines all around, all decks involved - hardly something you want to achieve.

Second, there is zero use changing 5-6 existing cards to support "Mill" as an archetype directly if you do not add new options to actually Mill, only cards that benefit from said effects. By changing Operator for example you literally removed at least 2-3 mills per round from the Mill deck. Hardly an improvement. Without the actual "milling" all those cards could have a reasonable chance to brick.

Third:

Note: Kingslayer's purpose is to Mill for the sake of Milling, not to randomly remove opponent's best card.
This I'd say is absolutely subjective and not true at all. Mill is and always was about trying to hit that sweet spot and burn the best cards from your opponent - that is one of it's original win condition. By removing this you would seriously cripple it's chances for winning.
If a Mill deck can only target and remove your weaker cards, it is technically a super-effective thinning tool - literally burns all your trash so you can draw all your best cards without having to deal with 4-5 provision bronzes.

No, still don't buy.
 
Mill is and always was about trying to hit that sweet spot and burn the best cards from your opponent
That is literary the reason why Mill is so toxic and why it just can't work in Gwent as it is. To mill a good card you should use a good card and to mill a cheap card you should use a cheap card. You can't have a card that can randomly remove opponent's win condition, thus winning the game after one turn.
 
Hmm, well by that logic we could make it so that bronze lock cards can only lock cards that cost 9 provision or less (or they could lock more expensive cards but you'd need to stack 2 bronze locks), while you'd need a gold lock to lock any card or maybe bronze damage cards would do reduced damage vs cards that are 10+ provisions. And to balance it up make bronze boosts do less boost to your 10+ provision cards!
Not saying that I would mind this revolutionary change though lol, would actually be cool.
 
Sorry, but I think the main problem of your point is that you are forgetting the weakness of mill decks. Yes, with Kingslayer you can be really lucky and vanish one of the best oppnent's card, but if not, if it's a bronze, you will finish your turn having a weak 4 card and thinning the opponents deck for his profit. And this is more probable as there are more bronze cards than gold cards, specially after the mulligan.
It's true that it's a gambling deck, and just because of that you cannot base all your arguments looking only at the worst situation possible. And also, there aren't so much decks having their winning condition in 1 card, so even if you loose your best, you have all others to react.
 
Sorry, but I think the main problem of your point is that you are forgetting the weakness of mill decks. Yes, with Kingslayer you can be really lucky and vanish one of the best oppnent's card, but if not, if it's a bronze, you will finish your turn having a weak 4 card and thinning the opponents deck for his profit. And this is more probable as there are more bronze cards than gold cards, specially after the mulligan.
It's true that it's a gambling deck, and just because of that you cannot base all your arguments looking only at the worst situation possible. And also, there aren't so much decks having their winning condition in 1 card, so even if you loose your best, you have all others to react.
RNG effects like this are never good for the game.
If you're lucky, you can significantly reduce opponent's power in future rounds, forcing him to rely more on his oppening hand. If he drew poorly, you have higher chance of hitting something good - so if your opponent got screwed over by RNG, he's more likely to get screwed even more and there is nothing he can do about it.
If you're unlucky, you're helping your opponent, improving his future draws. So if your opponent got good opening hand, you are the one who is getting screwed over - your cards are unlikely to generate value and any attempt to improve your chances or generate points might get countered, because your opponent drew well and there is nothing you can do about it.
So mill is nothing but pure RNG, no skill, no interactivity. That's why i think that mill cards should provide more predictable value and more interactivity for both players.
 
RNG effects like this are never good for the game.
If you're lucky, you can significantly reduce opponent's power in future rounds, forcing him to rely more on his oppening hand. If he drew poorly, you have higher chance of hitting something good - so if your opponent got screwed over by RNG, he's more likely to get screwed even more and there is nothing he can do about it.
If you're unlucky, you're helping your opponent, improving his future draws. So if your opponent got good opening hand, you are the one who is getting screwed over - your cards are unlikely to generate value and any attempt to improve your chances or generate points might get countered, because your opponent drew well and there is nothing you can do about it.
So mill is nothing but pure RNG, no skill, no interactivity. That's why i think that mill cards should provide more predictable value and more interactivity for both players.
I don’t find the RNG in mill cards to be of a generally bad kind.

First, without other set up, the odds are sufficiently against hitting an extremely high value card that mill cards alone are a fairly consistent losing proposition.

With set up, mill cards obtain competitive value, but the set up can be contested — often in unique and interesting ways. For instance, if the set up is to deplete the opponents deck by round three, it can be countered by changing strategy to 2-0 or to avoid use of thinning cards. If the set up is to steal good cards via currier or Warrior, one can counter with cards that play top card, or cards that shuffle the deck, or cards like ofiri merchant that trade cards back.

My point is that the randomness of mill decks does not win games — strategies to control that randomness win games and those strategies (and their counters) lead to interesting games.
 
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