[- SUGGESTION | OPEN LETTER -] I got a slap in the face

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ya1

Forum regular
@Eagle707 this is solid feedback work. CDPR should hear from different types of consumers. However, and it is not in any way an insult, it is obvious from your feedback that despite your extreme attention to detail and organized mind you are a casual gamer with limited understanding of how games work in depth. I believe that CDPR in its very commercial approach to game development already overemphasized this segment of the market. If to overlook the bugs and glitches, the game is already close a masterpiece of different aspects of storytelling and environment design as well as the music and the visuals - the qualities anyone enjoys. Following the storyline with little attention to the details of game mechanics, character progression and the metagame - as long as you're lucky to own a platform that does not bug it to unplayability - this brings about a very fine experience already.

It is from the point of view of more "dedicated" gamers, especially those with background in different forms of rpg, that this game simply cannot be described as anything else but trash. The game uses make-believe mechanics and false information to create an illusion of rpg depth. This is unbecoming of a game developer. There are character statistics and character progression elements that simply do not have any effect on the game by design.

What's more, the game system is unbalanced to the point of unplayability. Unless you make optimization errors in core aspects of character development or gimp your char on purpose, you get so massively overpowered between levels 20 and 30 that further progress loses all meaning. But this is not only due to the inability to balance the math, it is BY DESIGN. Operating Systems are core elements of the game which dictate gameplay. And 2 out of 3 of them - Sandevistans and Cyberdecks - are beyond the scope of what any serious game maker would consider a functional game element. They are overpowered by their very design. They are like making every default shot in Asteroid (the retro arcade game) be the nuke killing everyone on screen. There is no combat where you "play the game" anymore, there is only "observing" what happens when player damage can exceed enemy health up to 100 times, and most game mechanics strip the AI of the ability to even react. Many long time fans of action games agree that the game is nonsensically trivial. To me, it is braindead even with a mod that increases enemy health tenfold.

And then there is the AI... Let's not get there at this point.

So please excuse me when I stick my nose in a thread about something else. But I can't help but point out that there are other areas that deserve, no, demand dev attention than making the game more pretty and cohesive. The latter might bring them more money, though.
 
@Eagle707 this is solid feedback work. CDPR should hear from different types of consumers. However, and it is not in any way an insult, it is obvious from your feedback that despite your extreme attention to detail and organized mind you are a casual gamer with limited understanding of how games work in depth. I believe that CDPR in its very commercial approach to game development already overemphasized this segment of the market. If to overlook the bugs and glitches, the game is already close a masterpiece of different aspects of storytelling and environment design as well as the music and the visuals - the qualities anyone enjoys. Following the storyline with little attention to the details of game mechanics, character progression and the metagame - as long as you're lucky to own a platform that does not bug it to unplayability - this brings about a very fine experience already.

It is from the point of view of more "dedicated" gamers, especially those with background in different forms of rpg, that this game simply cannot be described as anything else but trash. The game uses make-believe mechanics and false information to create an illusion of rpg depth. This is unbecoming of a game developer. There are character statistics and character progression elements that simply do not have any effect on the game by design.

What's more, the game system is unbalanced to the point of unplayability. Unless you make optimization errors in core aspects of character development or gimp your char on purpose, you get so massively overpowered between levels 20 and 30 that further progress loses all meaning. But this is not only due to the inability to balance the math, it is BY DESIGN. Operating Systems are core elements of the game which dictate gameplay. And 2 out of 3 of them - Sandevistans and Cyberdecks - are beyond the scope of what any serious game maker would consider a functional game element. They are overpowered by their very design. They are like making every default shot in Asteroid (the retro arcade game) be the nuke killing everyone on screen. There is no combat where you "play the game" anymore, there is only "observing" what happens when player damage can exceed enemy health up to 100 times, and most game mechanics strip the AI of the ability to even react. Many long time fans of action games agree that the game is nonsensically trivial. To me, it is braindead even with a mod that increases enemy health tenfold.

And then there is the AI... Let's not get there at this point.

So please excuse me when I stick my nose in a thread about something else. But I can't help but point out that there are other areas that deserve, no, demand dev attention than making the game more pretty and cohesive. The latter might bring them more money, though.

Thank you ya1. You are fully entitled to give your point of view and suggestions to improve it on this topic and to participate. To answer you without being off topic, I've been playing video games since the 90s. Of course I play today less nowadays for professional reasons, but that doesn't prevent me from having a solid knowledge. I played countless RPGs and many other styles of games.

Your comment is relevant about the gameplay. I don't know if I was clear enough about it when I saw your message. No, my message is not only to make the game pretty and consistent. Do not over-interpret my writings. I don't even think I mention the graphics. By the way, the illustration screenshots speak for themselves.

When a game is in this vein, it is a whole: Gameplay, mechanics, Immersion, coherence etc...

First of all, the question I asked myself before writing it: "The game is release, it's in this condition. How do we make it better now?" Know that my basic message was written with a general point of view and is not there to express what "Game" I would like me but to try to satisfy the maximum of players by synthesizing to avoid undrinkable blocks.

I could spend hours writing about everything that's wrong with the current game. However, we all know that already, what's the point of writing it? So my approach is prospective. That's what my Thread is for.


The gameplay and game mechanics are wobbly or even broken. We can of course only suggest that they be repaired (Which seems logical to me with the arrival of new content, at least that's what I implied in my first post), that there is a balance and that the content of the game is deep enough to be fully used.

However be careful not to confuse balancing and artificial balancing. Going from one extreme to the other. Because as in artificial mechanics, there is an artificial balance. Once a certain level is reached, it is normal that the player should feel a rise in the power of his character after spending hours improving it.
 
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Excellent and highly detailed critique with detailed solutions.

My main observation, given the veritable deluge of post launch observation we have all seen online, ranging from articulate balanced review to raging vitriolic resentment and anger following the launch of this game is:

Why would any creative global company aiming to realise a huge ambitious multi faceted, hugely hyped and massively anticipated 'ground breaking' multi platform game NOT include experienced game players, users, and modders in its creative team?

Given that within days, let alone a couple of months now, literally hundreds if not thousands of users and reviewers were able to come up with 'mile-long' lists of deficiencies, omissions, lost expectations, missing features, imaginative improvements and simply 'better' ways of realising the huge dream of a cyberpunk world.

And yet, were any of these voices, intellects and imagineers in any way utilised as consultants, focus groups, creative contributors or 'reality-check' sources.. err.. no don't think so!

I've read far better ideas and suggestions here from the playing audience, and from modders and mod users and feature requests on nexus and on social media than even the sum total of what CDPR's developers did over YEARS !

Ok it's still in many ways a superb achievement and a great vision in a game that many have loved despite its flaws, BUT how come almost the entire audience is able to see easily where it all was lacking and where it all 'went wrong' when the supposed 'experts' with market leading games under their belt and a world of technical wizardry could not?

If the idea truly was to create ' a world of cyberpunk in a visionary game the likes of which we have never seen before' and beat every game that had come before to create a stunning visual and technical and gameplay masterpiece, ..blah blah... what exactly were they all doing over those years, given how many flaws and missed opportunities the world at large can now list which they somehow just didn't see or failed to imagine or deliver and which were in many cases done better by games a decade ago? Did internal politics and commercial greed rule over integrity and creativity? Many think so.

Next time I think a game provider company should tap the brains of its paying audience a lot more before releasing their product and involve testers, not just shove out demos and PR - we would all benefit.
 
Excellent and highly detailed critique with detailed solutions.

My main observation, given the veritable deluge of post launch observation we have all seen online, ranging from articulate balanced review to raging vitriolic resentment and anger following the launch of this game is:

Why would any creative global company aiming to realise a huge ambitious multi faceted, hugely hyped and massively anticipated 'ground breaking' multi platform game NOT include experienced game players, users, and modders in its creative team?

Given that within days, let alone a couple of months now, literally hundreds if not thousands of users and reviewers were able to come up with 'mile-long' lists of deficiencies, omissions, lost expectations, missing features, imaginative improvements and simply 'better' ways of realising the huge dream of a cyberpunk world.

And yet, were any of these voices, intellects and imagineers in any way utilised as consultants, focus groups, creative contributors or 'reality-check' sources.. err.. no don't think so!

I've read far better ideas and suggestions here from the playing audience, and from modders and mod users and feature requests on nexus and on social media than even the sum total of what CDPR's developers did over YEARS !

Ok it's still in many ways a superb achievement and a great vision in a game that many have loved despite its flaws, BUT how come almost the entire audience is able to see easily where it all was lacking and where it all 'went wrong' when the supposed 'experts' with market leading games under their belt and a world of technical wizardry could not?

If the idea truly was to create ' a world of cyberpunk in a visionary game the likes of which we have never seen before' and beat every game that had come before to create a stunning visual and technical and gameplay masterpiece, ..blah blah... what exactly were they all doing over those years, given how many flaws and missed opportunities the world at large can now list which they somehow just didn't see or failed to imagine or deliver and which were in many cases done better by games a decade ago? Did internal politics and commercial greed rule over integrity and creativity? Many think so.

Next time I think a game provider company should tap the brains of its paying audience a lot more before releasing their product and involve testers, not just shove out demos and PR - we would all benefit.

Hello Choomba ! Thank you for your participation which also makes it possible to point out in a very relevant way the external problems of the game.

Perfectly agree with you. I've seen, like you, for weeks now, people full of spirit and talent who think about the game in an incredible way. Whether they are players or modders.

"BUT how come almost the entire audience is able to see easily where it all was lacking and where it all 'went wrong' when the supposed 'experts' with market leading games under their belt and a world of technical wizardry could not?"

You express a recurring problem in many companies. From the smallest to the largest.

For me the main reasons :

- Does not wish to break the established paradigms in the sector (video game industry in this case). You can see it very clearly, it's not coming out of the woodwork (They can tell what they want in their communication, there has been some progress, but it is obvious). I can also say that I'm very ambitious, I want to make the best game in the world that's my goal blah blah blah blah.... I still believe actions rather than words :)

- CP2077 is not seen only as a product in itself by shareholders and managers. It is simply a tool in their profitability planning. They're not really concerned with your gaming experience, they'll limit themselves to just reaching the goal without making too much effort.

- Development impacted by the internal management.

- The short termism and contentment within the management units. They are in a search for immediacy, instantaneity. I hope that this experience will make them understand to get back on track.

- To have ambition without giving themselves the means to do so and to rest on their laurels.


So yes, when you see it from the outside it's surreal.
 
Thank you for eloquently writing up what a lot of users are hoping for.
I would like to chip in an idea:
NPC Quests:
While walking around Night City I have overheard a lot of conversations between NPCs about one problem or another, but am not able to meaningfully engage with them. It would be great to be able to strike up a conversation with them and offer your your services leading to a gig. These could be quite simple, like helping the food vendor with the punks touching his bike, or lead to a multi-gig quest like the Vending Machine. these could also be used to introduce new Characters into Vs life.
It would increase the replayabilty and give you an incentive to explore more.
 
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Thank you for eloquently writing up what a lot of users are hoping for.
I would like to chip in an idea:
NPC Quests:
While walking around Night City I have overheard a lot of conversations between NPCs about one problem or another. It would be great to be able to strike up a conversation with them and offer your your services leading to a gig. These could be quite simple, like helping the food vendor with the punks touching his bike, or lead to a multi-gig quest like the Vending Machine. these could also be used to introduce new Characters into Vs life.
It would increase the replayabilty and give you an incentive to explore more.


Thank you for your participation and for enriching the Thread. The suggestion is excellent.

Just like the Higwayman that I discovered by chance, it would be very brave to integrate more quests without markers (Secondary or Main) or to be able to solve the problems of night city residents or in extensions/DLCs. To force us to be more careful with the environment while exploring it.
 
CDPR had those types of Quests in the Witcher 3, so I see no reason that they wouldn't be able to implement it in CP2077. They should receive a marker, and journal entry, if you get it - like when you get a telephone call from a Fixer.
They just wouldn't be on the Map until you discover them. It could be a DLC/Expansion which would be optional for those who like that sort of thing.
 
CDPR had those types of Quests in the Witcher 3, so I see no reason that they wouldn't be able to implement it in CP2077. They should receive a marker, and journal entry, if you get it - like when you get a telephone call from a Fixer.
They just wouldn't be on the Map until you discover them. It could be a DLC/Expansion which would be optional for those who like that sort of thing.

Yes, perfectly all right, it doesn't seem complicated. I find that on CP2077, it's quite shy.

I'll agree with that. Its not underutilized imo, it's cluttered and messy, no order to it and no reason for half of it. What is the point of using the message system on the phone if it just takes you to journal section of the pause screen? so dumb. GTA 4 had a better phone system.

Thank you for participating. I maintain the term "Underutilized" in the way in a world like cyberpunk, even with the implants, the phone could have had a greater importance in the game: Whether in quests, having a greater usefulness in solving plots, interacting with characters and learning more about the background of the game, being used as a tool during hacking etc...
 

ya1

Forum regular
To answer you without being off topic, I've been playing video games since the 90s.

Well I might have come across a bit too strong with calling you a casual gamer. I apologize. What I meant is this. From the point of view of game system design, genre compatibility* and other stuff that seems obvious to "well versed" rpg gamers, CP is just horrible. The game - not as in "immersive environment and cool cutscenes" but as in "activity involving skill and following a designed set of rules" - is beyond bad. So hardly a mention of this in such a long and detailed feedback smells a little bit like too much emphasis on casual gamer experience.

* I mean it's supposed be a looter-shooter but 1) it has no endgame to grind and 2) game mechanics - weapon stats, how they interact with builds, how the char interacts with the environment (the godmode thing), etc. - are totally incompatible with the genre, extremely shallow and look like they're designed by total amateurs (100+% crit chance on items, errors and inconsistencies in descriptions, etc.) and/or game design conmen (fake stats to create an illusion of depth).

I mean craft a golden weapon with a max lvl char and tech perks, upgrade it once and this is it for the "looter" part. The system is designed so that no loot can get better than this. And what I described is accessible to anyone after two dozen hours in the game. So you get absolute BiS items in two dozen hours? This is an example of what I mean as genre incompatibility. But in fact the whole system is so shallow and erroneously designed that what I described isn't even relevant in the whole messed up picture.
 
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Well I might have come across a bit too strong with calling you a casual gamer. I apologize. What I meant is this. From the point of view of game system design, genre compatibility* and other stuff that seems obvious to "well versed" rpg gamers, CP is just horrible. The game - not as in "immersive environment and cool cutscenes" but as in "activity involving skill and following a designed set of rules" - is beyond bad. So hardly a mention of this in such a long and detailed feedback smells a little bit like too much emphasis on casual gamer experience.

* I mean it's supposed be a looter-shooter but 1) it has no endgame to grind and 2) game mechanics - weapon stats, how they interact with builds, how the char interacts with the environment (the godmode thing), etc. - are totally incompatible with the genre, extremely shallow and look like they're designed by total amateurs (100+% crit chance on items, errors and inconsistencies in descriptions, etc.) and/or game design conmen (fake stats to create an illusion of depth).

I mean craft a golden weapon with a max lvl char and tech perks, upgrade it once and this is it for the "looter" part. The system is designed so that no loot can get better than this. And what I described is accessible to anyone after two dozen hours in the game. So you get absolute BiS items in two dozen hours? This is an example of what I mean as genre incompatibility. But in fact the whole system is so shallow and erroneously designed that what I described isn't even relevant in the whole messed up picture.

No problem, no offense.

I agree with your point of view and maybe I didn't suggest enough because for me it's still obvious that it's useless to add content if this part is not corrected. To write this message, I based myself on its current stateus and tried to write a general point of view. As the game is currently quite "casu" without being pejorative, it is normal that my message reflects this. It's good that you're here to underline this part.

I've been doing paper role-playing for a long time, cyberpunk is supposed to be based on it and the mechanics of the genre are far from being respected.

The example you are taking also points to an important aspect of the game, it clearly lacks content and substance. This is why I insist on this point. Because without content, there is no mechanism to fully exploit.

If I had to express the game I would like, it would be similar to yours and it would be based on a paper role-playing system. With the same difficulties when trying to leveling a character and specialize or optimize it with different builds. Once you've worked the sweat and blood, you'd feel the results of your efforts while playing. Today, even with perfect mechanics, we couldn't even exploit 5 to 10% of the system because of the lack of content.
 
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Well if nothing else CDPR created a very solid launch platform for future content.

They invested a lot in creating Night City and it shows, it wouldn't make sense to me for them just to drop it completely.

I believe, especially with plans for multiplayer, that there's a chance for them to completely overhaul the whole game systematically with new content for years, new stories, new activities etc.

The backbone is there they just need to fix the inconsistencies in the gameplay and the way they approach gameplay loops, there needs to be more to this open world.

the game is completely unbalanced, it will take a lot of work to make this work with multiplayer.
maybe in 2025 (I'm not joking) a great single player and decent multiplayer could be available, but in the state the game is in right now, I cannot even imagine a multiplayer.

some games are the epitome of development mess and incompetent management, this one is on the top now along with Anthem.
 
the game is completely unbalanced, it will take a lot of work to make this work with multiplayer.
maybe in 2025 (I'm not joking) a great single player and decent multiplayer could be available, but in the state the game is in right now, I cannot even imagine a multiplayer.

some games are the epitome of development mess and incompetent management, this one is on the top now along with Anthem.

Thank you for participating in the Thread, if you have any suggestions to add don't hesitate. It is always a pleasure to see the Thread become richer after each intervention.

Like you, I can't imagine a multiplayer with the current game. What style of multiplayer will be chosen ?

The only thing I can imagine is that they're playing it safe and choosing to develop a model that actually works. But it wouldn't make sense. It would be with the sole purpose of releasing a multiplayer version. No consistency.
 
If we're talking about suggestions, you know what I want to see?

Common craftable daggers. I can make rare daggers(I think blue is rare) I forget.

For early game, throwing daggers is costly when the daggers cant be easily mass produced. Or at the very least. Let us reclaim daggers or make a common throwing dagger.

Another thing. A constant companion. Look at dog meat from fallout 4. Dog meat is a dog. Dogs typically don't make plans or have prior engagements. It would be neat if V could have a canine or robot companion. Maybe not a canine since most animals don't exist in the cyberpunk world, but a companion that can help you out whenever you want and for however long you need them. The flathead could have been a tool for V to use or maybe one of the robots that you fight throughout the game could be reskinned. Possibly a modified version so you can tell instantly this robot is YOUR companion. Thoughts?

Another thing I'd like. Being able to jump no matter where you are. I had a level 42 character that was stuck on the roof of a building that he cannot jump off of because the rails are too high for him to walk over and the game will not let him jump. He also has no autosave or save of him prior to being on the roof. I had to start over because the game wont let me jump off a roof. I'm doing fine now. I have a level 34 character, but this was an incredibly horrible setback.
 
@OP

All critique I have read is founded. Critique is good. Without critique nothing improves. If this product would be as promised and finished there would be far less critique.
 
@OP

All critique I have read is founded. Critique is good. Without critique nothing improves. If this product would be as promised and finished there would be far less critique.

I do not share this opinion, not all the criticisms I have read are well-founded.

We have been developing suggestions and constructive criticism since the beginning of this Thread. Criticism alone is useless. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to do so by bringing your suggestions / constructive criticism.

Regarding marketing, communication and management, I have already answered.
 
From my POV this is not as much a short-termism and shortcoming in decision-making education but more of aiming too high, making too many promises, biased perception, and yes, lack of large-scale experience. Please mind: obviously all of those can overlap.

- REDS promised to deliver the game that would work on the old generation of consoles. They already took money from people with pre-orders. So when next-gen gone live their deadline for delivery got solid. They could not have really worked for 1-2 more years. I mean: perhaps they should, but this would already make significant number of their potential clients gone mad, and their image would suffer all the same. They had to go for release, and they had to release fast.

- REDS promised to deliver branching stories... And they did. The thing is that the branching is pretty limited and insignificant.
Like the choice between killing Royce up front, and getting his Chaos gun; or letting him live, and potentially getting Dum Dum gun later. Or like keeping Skippy just for it to get angry at You vs. giving it back to Regina and losing it vs. lying that You are going to give it back, but actually keeping it. Or like letting Takemura die and being forced to suffer Hellman by the end.
Some of the branches are not exclusive - which is exactly the case with the endings.
You can go for Arasaka/Hanako ending without ever getting close to Panam or without investing into Johny's line of quests. Doing additional questlines truly opens new options to You, but the thing is that You can do all the questlines, and then select from all the endings within the same game.
And we can easily see that REDS had originally intended to offer even more in the main part of the game. There are so many undeveloped paths, dialogues, places, and items that this is quite obvious to me that they had *planned* for player's choices to be real. Why this has not been delivered? Let's be serious, we can't say that this is because people who developed a single game for c. 7 years were aiming for a quick cash grab. This is because at first they started with *an ambitious vision*, then they were adding new ideas to make this vision even better, and then... Then at certain point they have understood that they wanted too much, and that in order to go with their initial plans they would need at least 7 more years - or something like 7 times that many programmers. And at that time they were probably already aware that premiere of PS5 was approaching pretty soon. So they had to decide: what should be cut off, what should be reduced in scope, what should be saved for later. Consequences of decisions made by player were an instant choice. At least some of the dropped ideas will probably return in DLCs.

- In a similar way, this is still possible for them to significantly improve some of the game mechanics and options. Police is acting awkward? Yes, it is - but this is RPG rather than GTA. You can play through the whole game without provoking NCPD once, and this will not make Your experience inadequate. So REDS decided to focus on shooting, or on brawling, or maybe just on PS4 optimization instead of making police encounters better. And guess what, they can still easily fix that with patches or DLCs in the future. Just like they can easily add a subway/train that is explicitly promised in-game with NCART webpages. And this is the same cut off functionality as with crowds of pedestrians and cars that are travelling back and forth or appearing and disappearing randomly as V is turning around. So this was the REDS *decision*: if this was relatively *minor* for RPG game, and if there was still an option to easily add/fix it afterwards... Then let's deliver the game *on time*, even though "incomplete". And then make it complete afterwards. Was it the right decision? Well, I don't know, but this was a tough one for sure. Either way *some* of the promises would be broken, and they probably genuinely believed that they are choosing the "lesser" wrong.

- Now, about the initial issue with old-gen consoles... That was pretty bad. But even so... Personally, I don't think this was out of malice. Deliberately cheating on promises, hiding broken product from reviewers, expecting that people would be buying well-advertised game despite poor opinion of their peers? Possible, but I just *don't think so*. I believe that they were so high on their own legend that they believed that they were able to deliver. That they had neglected warnings from the bottom-tier programmers taking them for naysayers. With their wishful thinking decision-makers were prone to believe to medium-level and top-level managers that were much more neutral, and much more ambiguous in their communication. I am almost sure that shortly prior to the release they had relatively stable version of the game for PS4 and XB1. But they wanted to deliver on their promises, so they asked their employees to try harder and to make the game look *better*. And the programmers tried. They were improving the game until Hour 0, which resulted in poor testing and thus complete disaster immediately after the release. Please note, they have then published patch 1.04 in such a short time that this means one of two things: either they have reverted to the previous/stable version of the game; or they have already had those fixes *almost* ready, and just missed a couple of days to include them in the core code. Probably a mix of both. Does it make it right? No, this means that they got disconnected with reality, and were unable to identify and accept their problems on time. Human thing. And they are paying for this dearly ever since.
 
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