Suggestion: Remove the cheap "The First Card You Play Will Be Killed" cards

[rrc]

There is nothing more frustrating than to have the first card you play getting killed by a cheap bronze card. Blue Coin (Going first) has its own disadvantage in terms of card advantage and who gets the last play in R3. On top of these things, the cards which can kill the first card you play is a huge pain in the rear. Why do we even need such cards in the game? And why are there some cards which are super cheap and can kill guaranteed your first card you play? The two cards which are the most annoying are The Marauder and Predatory Dive. They are both 4P and 5P respectively and can kill the first card you play (Marauder 99% of the time). Strangely these two cards come from the most beloved factions by CDPR, SK and MO. No other faction has such cheap cards which can just kill the first card you play even if it is an immune card. I wouldn't mind if it gets killed by Scorch or even Epidemic (Bronze, but still 9 provisions). But to be killed by 4P or 5P card and there is no way you can play around them is just unfair.

I know, SK and MO players will say "Play around it", "It is an interesting Mechanics", "Different abilities are cool". But is it? Blue Mountain Elite was a such a card and she couldn't survive in the first two updates. It was too oppressive to kill a 4 power body put on the board and getting wiped immediately. At least BME couldn't target immune cards. If a card can kill unconditionally the first card you play, it should have a much higher provisions, say at least 7. Would Predatory Dive become useless if it is priced at 7? May be Yes, but it is where it belongs. Marauder should also have some conditions, Range 1 and if you control a Warrior, Range 2. Would it kill that card? Yes, of course, like how BME was killed and that is where kind of ability belong to.

This kind of blatant favorism showed by CDPR towards SK and MO are the only off putting thing about Gwent for me. The rest of the three factions could never have such a card. Even if it somehow survives and comes to the game, it will be killed in the next couple of updated. But for SK and MO, CDPR always gives a blind eye and treats them like the favorite child.

Lets say you play against SK and get blue coin. If you use TA, the card may get Cleaver-ed (or Geralt-ed). If you don't, it will be Maraudered. So, what can anyone do? Start with an Artifact? Throw away your first card?

You go against MO, blue coin, it is the case thing. The card you play may be killed, no matter how big or even immune it is. And the worst part is, it will be done by a stupid 5P bronze card.

 

[Smradd]

As someone on the forum already mentioned, add the condition to predatory dive that you both need to have a unit on board for it to destroy, card solved.
I'm okay with marauder, but that's just me.

 

[tulamide]

That's over-simplified in my eyes.
Marauder is not a "the first card you play will be killed card". It is randomly doing 4 damage to either side of the board, when placed in the melee row. Since it doesn't target, it can damage immune cards as well, which is just fair, considering how unfair an immune team card (like the just 7p Milva) would be. Marauder is only good for 2 situations: opponent starts a round, no cards are on the board; or opponent has more cards on the board and there's an immune card. So, starting R1 just use a card higher than 4 str, or play a combo. Problem solved.

And just for fun, a list of cards with similar abilities as Marauder (no manual targeting but dmg)

SKELLIGE
Harald's pals (2dmg) 9p, doesn't work on blue coin first card
Holger Blackhand (1dmg) 8p, doesn't work on blue coin first card
Blueboy Lugos (2dmg) 8p, doesn't work on blue coin first card
Delirium (split 6dmg) 7p
Longship (1dmg) 6p, range 2, doesn't work on blue coin first card
Marauder (split 4 dmg including own units) 4p, melee row

SCOIA'TAEL
Toruviel (2x 2dmg), 8p, melee row
Pitfall Trap (destroys card), 8p, doesn't work on blue coin first card
Vrihedd Brigade (2dmg) 6p
Waylay (destroys card) 6p, doesn't work on blue coin first card
Crushing Trap (2dmg) 6p, doesn't work on blue coin first card
Bol Blathanna Bomber (2dmg) 5p
Incinerating Trap (5dmg) 5p, zeal, doesn't work on blue coin first card
Pyrotechnician (2dmg) 4p, zeal, cooldown, needs artifact target, doesn't work on blue coin first card

Wow, seems like DSPR just loves ST, don't you think

 

[MeCosmos]

Not so sure about marauder, had quite a few games where it was negative 2 points for the guy who played it, was kinda hilarious

But predatory dive can be annoying. It should be something like - deal 3 (4?) dmg if there is no unit on your side of the board. If it is, destroy the lowest unit on both sides of the board instead.
Or something around those lines

 

[rrc]

That's over-simplified in my eyes.
Marauder is not a "the first card you play will be killed card". It is randomly doing 4 damage to either side of the board, when placed in the melee row. Since it doesn't target, it can damage immune cards as well, which is just fair, considering how unfair an immune team card (like the just 7p Milva) would be. Marauder is only good for 2 situations: opponent starts a round, no cards are on the board; or opponent has more cards on the board and there's an immune card. So, starting R1 just use a card higher than 4 str, or play a combo. Problem solved.

I promise, honestly I don't understand if you are agreeing or disagreeing to my point
You said "Marauder is not that card" and then said "Marauder is that card". The whole point of this thread was getting a 4 point body or even an immune card killed by cheap bronze card when going first. Going first is a problem in itself, and getting denied by cheap bronze cards is the problem. You start the round on blue coin, and your first card will be killed by a Marauder (unless you play Avallach in which case, they will have to something else, or if they are Crach, yes, even Marauder is enough to kill him). This is the most annoying part of that card. I will be perfectly fine if Cleaver does the job or a costlier unit does that, but a 4P bronze who can kill most of the units in the game (most of the units in the game are 4 power or less) is just oppressive. You may not about Blue Mountain Elite, an ST card. Which could do 4 damage to an enemy unit if there are no other units on the row. Basically, your first unit will be killed by it (4 power or less). It was immediately changed to have Range 1 basically killing that card, and it was not even able to target Immune unit. It was kind of the same thing about Marauder, but he stayed as he is. Unconditionally doing 4 damage by a 4 provision bronze is just too much.

SKELLIGE
Harald's pals (2dmg) 9p, doesn't work on blue coin first card
Holger Blackhand (1dmg) 8p, doesn't work on blue coin first card
Blueboy Lugos (2dmg) 8p, doesn't work on blue coin first card
Delirium (split 6dmg) 7p
Longship (1dmg) 6p, range 2, doesn't work on blue coin first card
Marauder (split 4 dmg including own units) 4p, melee row

SCOIA'TAEL
Toruviel (2x 2dmg), 8p, melee row
Pitfall Trap (destroys card), 8p, doesn't work on blue coin first card
Vrihedd Brigade (2dmg) 6p
Waylay (destroys card) 6p, doesn't work on blue coin first card
Crushing Trap (2dmg) 6p, doesn't work on blue coin first card
Bol Blathanna Bomber (2dmg) 5p
Incinerating Trap (5dmg) 5p, zeal, doesn't work on blue coin first card
Pyrotechnician (2dmg) 4p, zeal, cooldown, needs artifact target, doesn't work on blue coin first card

Wow, seems like DSPR just loves ST, don't you think

If you understood my first point, you can realise that this list makes no sense in this thread. If we are to list any card which can do at least 2 damage, then we will have to list more than 50% of the card

And yet, I promise, I honestly can't figure out if you are being sarcastic and is actually helping with my argument or you are against my argument. Because most of the cards you had listed is basically nothing to do with this post. It is about a 4P or 5P card which can simply kill the first card you play.

 

[DRK3]

I understand the frustration that these 2 cards bring (and yes, im a frequent user of both), but even though they're problematic, they're a good counter for an even bigger problem in Gwent right now - unitless/special decks.

Those decks usually rely on Immune units for the few points they put on board, and if there wasnt Predatory Dive and Marauder, those decks would be even safer to play, making them even more popular.

Predatory Dive and Marauder are the 'Lesser Evil'. After the unitless decks are dealt with, im totally ok if they go for some changes to these 2 cards, not before.

 

[tulamide]

And yet, I promise, I honestly can't figure out if you are being sarcastic and is actually helping with my argument or you are against my argument. Because most of the cards you had listed is basically nothing to do with this post. It is about a 4P or 5P card which can simply kill the first card you play.

I am against your argument in terms of Marauder (didn't mention Predatory Dive once, because it is a totally new story, being a special card with no restrictions whatsoever). As I pointed out, Marauder is not simply killing the first card you play! Try it. Play Weeping Willow and show me how Marauder kills it. Play a gold card with Roach and show me how Marauder kills them.
Play a trap and show me how Marauder kills it.

There's a difference between dealing 4x 1 dmg randomly distributed to all units on the board, and destroying lowest units on the board (like Predatory Dive). If you don't see that difference, you shouldn't bring it to the discussion.

The list wasn't just random cards that deal damage, but cards that do the same as Marauder: dealing damage randomly, without the need to manually select a target. Opponent plays immune card, you play, for example, Dol Blathanna Bomber. Exactly the same behavior. I don't understand, why you think it's ok for ST cards, but not for SK cards?

 

[rrc]

There's a difference between dealing 4x 1 dmg randomly distributed to all units on the board, and destroying lowest units on the board (like Predatory Dive). If you don't see that difference, you shouldn't bring it to the discussion.

The list wasn't just random cards that deal damage, but cards that do the same as Marauder: dealing damage randomly, without the need to manually select a target. Opponent plays immune card, you play, for example, Dol Blathanna Bomber. Exactly the same behavior. I don't understand, why you think it's ok for ST cards, but not for SK cards?

Ok, first of all, cards doing random damage without manually targeting was NOT the topic I wanted to discuss. There are probably plenty of more cards that we can list (for example, Botchling or Reinforced Trebutchet etc). It is about the cheap cards (as mentioned in the title) which can potentially kill more than 95% of the cards that you play when you go first. There is a huge difference and I sincerely wish you get the difference between the two topics.

How do you think a Dol Blathana Bomber can kill a 4 point card. She can't even kill your first 3 point card. They are just not comparable. How is she exactly the same as Marauder? Lets go through the initial list and see if any of the cards that you mentioned are relevant to this discussion. Please note that I said it is OK if they are gold or a costly card. So, with that in mind:

SKELLIGE
Harald's pals (2dmg) 9p, doesn't work on blue coin first card - irrelevant as yourself have mentioned
Holger Blackhand (1dmg) 8p, doesn't work on blue coin first card - irrelevant as yourself have mentioned
Blueboy Lugos (2dmg) 8p, doesn't work on blue coin first card - irrelevant as yourself have mentioned
Delirium (split 6dmg) 7p - This is relevant, but it is at least a 7 provision gold. So, this is kind of OK.
Longship (1dmg) 6p, range 2, doesn't work on blue coin first card - It was 7 provision as it should have been, but CDPR just can't let any card need more turns to break even while synergizing with other cards and hence made it 6 provisions. Still, it can't kill the first card that gets played. So, irrelevant
Marauder (split 4 dmg including own units) 4p, melee row - Yes, this bloody card can kill the first card I play on blue coin. If you say "What about using TA"?, that is universally known to be a bad idea and is most of the time responded with either "Stitches get stitches" or "Nor your lucky day" or "I don't work for free".

SCOIA'TAEL
Toruviel (2x 2dmg), 8p, melee row - Seriously? She is an 8 provision gold card who can at the max do 2 damage to the first card played, getting -4 p-to-p ration. So, irrelevant.
Pitfall Trap (destroys card), 8p, doesn't work on blue coin first card - irrelevant as yourself have mentioned
Vrihedd Brigade (2dmg) 6p - He can do 2 damage and with Brouver losing 33% of his charges kill the first unit the opponent play. He is kind of relevant, but only with Brouver using his charge. Otherwise, he can't kill even a 3 point body played by the enemy first.
Waylay (destroys card) 6p, doesn't work on blue coin first card - When did you last see this card getting played? You need to have an elf alive for this work. Even if that condition is removed, it is still 6 provision, +1 provision than Predatory Dive. This is a junk card that is no way comparable to the utility of the two cards in discussion. So, irrelevant as yourself have mentioned
Crushing Trap (2dmg) 6p, doesn't work on blue coin first card - irrelevant as yourself have mentioned.
Bol Blathanna Bomber (2dmg) 5p - Already discussed. She could do 2 damage which can't kill most of the valuable units and even then, she is incurring 2 provisions loss.
Incinerating Trap (5dmg) 5p, zeal, doesn't work on blue coin first card - This is a relevant example. It can be used to do 3 damage by using it Zeal. But still can't kill immune units or a 4 power unit.
Pyrotechnician (2dmg) 4p, zeal, cooldown, needs artifact target, doesn't work on blue coin first card - Yes, exactly. He doesn't work and is irrelevant.

I don't understand, why you think it's ok for ST cards, but not for SK cards?

None of the ST cards can do what Marauder can do. None of the cards from NR or even NG can do what SK and MO can do with those two cards with such efficiency in provisions.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

The list wasn't just random cards that deal damage, but cards that do the same as Marauder: dealing damage randomly, without the need to manually select a target. Opponent plays immune card, you play, for example, Dol Blathanna Bomber. Exactly the same behavior. I don't understand, why you think it's ok for ST cards, but not for SK cards?

DB Bomber needs two targets on each row to reach maximum value and it's unlikely to kill an uninjured card with 2 damage. Marauder needs 1 target on the board and is a guaranteed 4 damage to that target, plus a body, as a 4p bronze card. It cannot hit itself so playing it immediately when going second completely negates the downside. Put differently, the other cards are more situational, more expensive and/or gold cards. Marauder is basically +2 above cost as a 4p bronze with the only condition being to play it early while going second. None of the cards you listed are even used the way Marauder is used except for Incinerating Trap. Incinerating Trap isn't a very good card either .

It's not a huge problem because nobody plays anything they care about as their opening card vs SK. Otherwise it gets wrecked by, you guessed it, Marauder. It does get slightly annoying being forced to do this, however. The card could unquestionably be changed in a way where it doesn't do this but remains a reasonable choice to carry.

As someone on the forum already mentioned, add the condition to predatory dive that you both need to have a unit on board for it to destroy, card solved.

The above solves any issues surrounding Predatory Dive instantly. Granted, I'd much prefer they just scrap the card and all of it's derivatives to open up a spot for... anything else.

 

[tulamide]

which can potentially kill more than 95% of the cards that you play when you go first.

You're constantly changing the conditions. That's not a good discussion style.

1) cheap "The First Card You Play Will Be Killed" cards
That was the first you said. I pointed out, that Marauder isn't one of these cards. Unless you think there are no cards or combos you can play out at first, which have more than 4 strength combined. But that wouldn't be an issue of Marauder, but about the game strategy of one player.

2) Marauder 99% of the time [kills]
The second thing you said. I made pretty clear that this is simply not true.

3) super cheap and can kill guaranteed your first card you play
That was the third thing you said. I again pointed out that there is no guarantee regarding Marauder (see 1)

4) can just kill the first card you play even if it is an immune card
Your fourth point. No, Marauder can't just kill the first card. There are conditions to be met. It does 4x 1 dmg. It's up to the opponent to play a 4 strength card, although knowing this fact. It's not that hard to outsmart an SK deck when having blue coin. Play a trap for example, or an artifact, or a unit with more than 4 strength. And the only immune card from ST it would be able to kill is Milva. But who'd draw her as first card when playing against SK and having blue coin?

But I guess, that is what bugs you most? Milva being killed, although immune, before gaining strength? Don't play her as first card against SK when you have blue coin.

5) You start the round on blue coin, and your first card will be killed by a Marauder
I know, it's repetitive, but your argumentation was as well. There is no sure deal that Marauder kills the starting card. It depends how you play. Arguing that the opponent would just use something else if you don't play something that Marauder could kill is redundant. Of course he/she will! That's why it's a competitive card game!

6) Unconditionally doing 4 damage by a 4 provision bronze is just too much.
Debatable. I wouldn't mind making it more expensive. But that wouldn't stop you from complaining that it kills Milva, right? But for sure it is not unconditional (melee row, details matter not only for ST)

7) It is about a 4P or 5P card which can simply kill the first card you play
Yep, repetitive, I know. By that definition this topic is not about Marauder. It would need a card that can destroy any card you play. Like Predatory Dive.

8) How do you think a Dol Blathana Bomber can kill a 4 point card?
Aaaand suddenly we change the conditions. I never said Bomber can kill a 4 strength card. I said the behavior of the card is the same. Just like Marauder you can "unconditionally" kill even immune cards. All it needs is a card played out with 2 strength.

9) None of the ST cards can do what Marauder can do
Redundant. None of the SK cards can do, what Milva can do. Etc. There will always be card specifics. I don't mind you having such an advantage with Milva. Instead I work out a way to deal with it. This is of course just an example.

If by TA you mean Tainted Ale, I can't say anything about it, because I concentrated on cards specific to factions.

I was curious, so I used GwentUP, set to "ST", "All Provision", "Faction ST", "All Colors", "All Rarities", "Card Type Units"

I found 15 units that would not be killed by Marauder, and with Filavandrel's ability a total of 30 units that would not be killed. That's from a pool of 69 ST units.

Of course the number of "safe" cards would rise with faction-less units considered.

But that's not relevant, as you could do similar statistics for SK cards that would survive a red coin Blue Mountain Elite.


Last, but not least, I hope you know by now that I have huge respect for you! This all is just about the topic, nothing personal. I like your ST faith and hope you will respect my SK faith as well! But respecting each other doesn't mean we have to agree on everything. Sometimes the expectations regarding cards might be different. Which doesn't change my admiration

 

[OG.laloquaint]

Does Cleaver fall into this?

 

[tulamide]

Does Cleaver fall into this?

Why should it? It's a 9p card that does 9 damage max and needs a manually selected target. rrc made clear that it is about cheap cards in terms of provisions.

(But I sure hate it, when this card destroys my boosted first card ^^ )

 

[OG.laloquaint]

Why should it? It's a 9p card that does 9 damage max and needs a manually selected target. rrc made clear that it is about cheap cards in terms of provisions.

(But I sure hate it, when this card destroys my boosted first card ^^ )

Aaaah I thought he meant cheap like.... "Oh that's annoying."

 

[rrc]

You're constantly changing the conditions. That's not a good discussion style.

1) cheap "The First Card You Play Will Be Killed" cards
That was the first you said. I pointed out, that Marauder isn't one of these cards. Unless you think there are no cards or combos you can play out at first, which have more than 4 strength combined. But that wouldn't be an issue of Marauder, but about the game strategy of one player.

2) Marauder 99% of the time [kills]
The second thing you said. I made pretty clear that this is simply not true.

3) super cheap and can kill guaranteed your first card you play
That was the third thing you said. I again pointed out that there is no guarantee regarding Marauder (see 1)

4) can just kill the first card you play even if it is an immune card
Your fourth point. No, Marauder can't just kill the first card. There are conditions to be met. It does 4x 1 dmg. It's up to the opponent to play a 4 strength card, although knowing this fact. It's not that hard to outsmart an SK deck when having blue coin. Play a trap for example, or an artifact, or a unit with more than 4 strength. And the only immune card from ST it would be able to kill is Milva. But who'd draw her as first card when playing against SK and having blue coin?

But I guess, that is what bugs you most? Milva being killed, although immune, before gaining strength? Don't play her as first card against SK when you have blue coin.

5) You start the round on blue coin, and your first card will be killed by a Marauder
I know, it's repetitive, but your argumentation was as well. There is no sure deal that Marauder kills the starting card. It depends how you play. Arguing that the opponent would just use something else if you don't play something that Marauder could kill is redundant. Of course he/she will! That's why it's a competitive card game!

6) Unconditionally doing 4 damage by a 4 provision bronze is just too much.
Debatable. I wouldn't mind making it more expensive. But that wouldn't stop you from complaining that it kills Milva, right? But for sure it is not unconditional (melee row, details matter not only for ST)

7) It is about a 4P or 5P card which can simply kill the first card you play
Yep, repetitive, I know. By that definition this topic is not about Marauder. It would need a card that can destroy any card you play. Like Predatory Dive.

8) How do you think a Dol Blathana Bomber can kill a 4 point card?
Aaaand suddenly we change the conditions. I never said Bomber can kill a 4 strength card. I said the behavior of the card is the same. Just like Marauder you can "unconditionally" kill even immune cards. All it needs is a card played out with 2 strength.

9) None of the ST cards can do what Marauder can do
Redundant. None of the SK cards can do, what Milva can do. Etc. There will always be card specifics. I don't mind you having such an advantage with Milva. Instead I work out a way to deal with it. This is of course just an example.

If by TA you mean Tainted Ale, I can't say anything about it, because I concentrated on cards specific to factions.

I was curious, so I used GwentUP, set to "ST", "All Provision", "Faction ST", "All Colors", "All Rarities", "Card Type Units"

I found 15 units that would not be killed by Marauder, and with Filavandrel's ability a total of 30 units that would not be killed. That's from a pool of 69 ST units.

Of course the number of "safe" cards would rise with faction-less units considered.

But that's not relevant, as you could do similar statistics for SK cards that would survive a red coin Blue Mountain Elite.


Last, but not least, I hope you know by now that I have huge respect for you! This all is just about the topic, nothing personal. I like your ST faith and hope you will respect my SK faith as well! But respecting each other doesn't mean we have to agree on everything. Sometimes the expectations regarding cards might be different. Which doesn't change my admiration

I will try one last time to make my point clear, which is, mostly you are talking about something completely different than what I created this thread for (or) have misunderstood me.

1) I said it can kill most of the cards. Not like any card like a SpearTip. If I play a gold card and if I have Roach, of course, it can't kill both. I know that. It was not what I said. (or What I meant to say).
2) It can kill 99% of the time what I play first. Unless it is a big unit or the Roach gets pulled. It is true that it can kill most of what anyone plays first.
3) Same as my first point.
4) I am sure that, you think that I played Milva first and it got killed by Marauder and I rage created this thread. I am not dumb to play Milva first against SK. No reasonable player will play Milva first against SK or MO as the first card. I said about immune as an 'it can even do that when most of the deal damage cards can't do'. Milva or Werewolf was not remotely my concern as 1) I would never start with Milva against SK and 2) I don't play MO that much and even if I do, getting a Werewolf removed is a problem only to unitless deck and they deserve a Marauder treatement.
5) Nothing to add as it is repetitive as you have mentioned and I have answered before.
6) Again, please don't assume I created the thread for Milva. Making it costly is the easy solution given to most of the cards like Sihil or Spear etc. where they get buried. Changing to something else would be good. Even making him have 3 charges is fine as there are plenty of cheap 4 or 5 provision bronzes which can do 3 damage.
7) Yes, repetitive. Nothing new to add here as I have explained in the above points.
8) I mentioned Dol Blathana Archer because you mentioned her. I wouldn't mention her in this thread at all. I am not sure who is changing the topic of the discussion . Dol Blathana archer is no way comparable to Marauder. She couldn't kill the first card that gets played (unless it is an Agitator). As far as I know, there is not any other card which comes with 2 strength which is a valid opener. She can do random damage (without needing to manually target, yes, but that is not the point of this thread), but she is not oppressive or can't kill any engine or any worthy card.
9) Again, it is not about which faction can do what. All factions have unique mechanics. None of the faction can do what Shilard does. It is not the point. When I said none of the faction can do what SK and MO can do, it was in relevant to this topic, that is to kill the first card you play with 4 or 5P bronze.

By TA, I meant Tactical Advantage. Why would I mentioned Tainted Ale? It is a 10provision gold. Completely irrelevant to our discussion.

By 15 cards, you mean 5 power or more Gold cards (may of them are not proactive and is not generally a good idea to start with them). Yes, they can survive (if the opponent is not Crach). You have a point by saying, not 99% of the cards will die, the % is less, that I have exaggerated. I agree to your point. I have exaggerated if we count the cards literally.

Hehe.. yes, we are friends of course and I consider this as a healthy discussion. I can see that you are passionate about SK and even think that you are my version for SK (it is not a complement. At the best, it is a mild insult ).

Post automatically merged: May 19, 2019

Does Cleaver fall into this?

As @tulamide had mentioned, Cleaver is a costly gold card. As far as I am concerned, Cleaver can (and should) fall into a dry well.

Aaaah I thought he meant cheap like.... "Oh that's annoying."

DB Bomber needs two targets on each row to reach maximum value and it's unlikely to kill an uninjured card with 2 damage. Marauder needs 1 target on the board and is a guaranteed 4 damage to that target, plus a body, as a 4p bronze card. It cannot hit itself so playing it immediately when going second completely negates the downside. Put differently, the other cards are more situational, more expensive and/or gold cards. Marauder is basically +2 above cost as a 4p bronze with the only condition being to play it early while going second. None of the cards you listed are even used the way Marauder is used except for Incinerating Trap. Incinerating Trap isn't a very good card either .

It's not a huge problem because nobody plays anything they care about as their opening card vs SK. Otherwise it gets wrecked by, you guessed it, Marauder. It does get slightly annoying being forced to do this, however. The card could unquestionably be changed in a way where it doesn't do this but remains a reasonable choice to carry.



The above solves any issues surrounding Predatory Dive instantly. Granted, I'd much prefer they just scrap the card and all of it's derivatives to open up a spot for... anything else.

Thank You!!! Well articulated @Restlessdingo32!

 

[petr_klokan]

I understand the frustration that these 2 cards bring (and yes, im a frequent user of both), but even though they're problematic, they're a good counter for an even bigger problem in Gwent right now - unitless/special decks.

Those decks usually rely on Immune units for the few points they put on board, and if there wasnt Predatory Dive and Marauder, those decks would be even safer to play, making them even more popular.

Predatory Dive and Marauder are the 'Lesser Evil'. After the unitless decks are dealt with, im totally ok if they go for some changes to these 2 cards, not before.

Interestingly both discussed cards, especially predatory dive, are autoinclude in the ‘evil’ decks you mentioned.

 

[BoYoDes]

I am playing by a few games last couple of days and it made me thinking... in Beta Bronze cards were DESIGNED to have a cap on the damage they did. Other cards were designed to have the exact STR so they can be or they would not be removed by certain damage. Example:

Redanian Knight Elects had 7 STR and 2 AR (armor) - the only Bronze card that could have remove them was Alzur's Thunder. You could damage it with other Bronze cards to remove their AR or pull a combo with 2 (two) Bronze cards to kill it (NG Alchemist on a Scorpion for 2x5 DMG). Case in point - you needed a combo between two Bronzes to destroy another Bronze. Nowaday you just slam your Bronze card and it destroys the OP Bronze or even Gold card like a Thanos Snap.

Bronzes with bodies were allowed to do only so much damage for a reason. It made the Golds and Silvers in your deck more reliable, but it also made your Bronzes more reliable too, cause it meant your Engines could stick for a turn and get some value.

Speaking of this - maybe CDPR should rethink how Brozne DMG Dealers are working right now and switch them from dealing pure DMG to apply... Bleeding effects instead. For example, when I played the Seasonal mode the last couple of days it felt so much better to have cards that stick and on the board and do something all the time, instead of being removed in an instant all the time.

On a side note - implementing this will need to change how Orders on Engines are working too (looking at NR). This needs to be tweaked anyway, cause accumulating 10 pings on a unit (or couple of units) in one turn makes for some gruesome swings, that feel really cheap and leaves really bad taste in your mouth. It just forces you to play these DMG or Lock cards, stripping the game from any diversity. Maybe make Bronze Engines like you did with the Shield and Spear Artefacts - make them be able to do only one ping per round, as was the case in Beta (with exceptions like Mangonels and that SK Discard Ships, which did need special conditions to trigger obliteration).

 

[nedders]

Gwent is broke from the very core, because absolutely everything is about damaging/removing cards. As has been rightly said it makes absolutely no difference what card you play first, immune or not, it can and most likely will be killed.

What's the answer? This forum often has excellent suggestions, the bad news is CDPR have neither the time nor inclination to implement any of them. The next patch will just have "plus one prov" or "minus one str" across a bunch of cards, with NONE of the screwy mechanics revisited. They had two years of Beta and ignored it - pretty sure this forum is just background noise.

However, my mother always said don't offer problems without solutions, so here's my take:

- For the cointoss, the 5 points should either be set in stone/untouchable, or only apply when your opponent passes so an instant 5 point boost.
- Most cards should start with armor or a shield
- Most cards should NOT be able to damage on deployment; this should apply to ALL bronze cards
- Rows should matter FAR more, i.e. it should be a LOT harder to damage the ranged row than the melee, but the payoff at melee should be greater. I.e. restrict Marauder, Dive, etc., to destroying sometihing on the melee only.
- There should be a third row (which will never happen because IPHONE) which would make a lot more interest in the abilities of cards
- Most cards should have two effects to mirror the rows, based on damage (melee) or boost (ranged). This is simplified, but at the moment the only thing row effects seem to do is piss off new players who didn't read the small print on Avallach....

Until this game stops being "play card - remove card - repeat", nothing will improve. It will just get increasingly more 'buggy' as pro ladder players find increasingly annoying ways to break it, until it becomes an unplayable mess. CDPR either need to wake up and take it seriously, or stop putting money into it RIGHT NOW because it is absolutely destined to fail on present speed and course.

 

[mzeebra]

The two cards which are the most annoying are The Marauder and Predatory Dive..

Personally I'm not that bothered by Marauder. It's not a great card for the game, but it's not as bad as "cheap scorch" Predatory Dive.

Predatory dive is suppose to work with deathwish, but has become a cheap early round or no-units scorch card instead. The purpose of the card is not to scorch, but to destroy the lowest units of both you and the enemy. This works well with deathwish. My opinion is that they should change the condition of the card to ONLY work if you and the enemy have a card on the board.

Unless they change it, the card will be primarily a cheap scorch bronze card that can be used twice.

Everyone is aware of the Marauder, and it is a card that can somewhat be countered and/or brick. Despite my dislike for Skellige being overpowered, I think the Marauder is a good card for the game. But stop giving Skellige ALL the card abilities of ALL the other factions!

 

[tulamide]

Skellige fans thinking "I'll just play Blueboy when expecting Marauder", think twice. Although Marauder does 4x 1 dmg, it doesn't trigger Blueboys retaliation even once. I couldn't test it with Queensguard or Shieldmaiden yet, but it really starts turning Marauder into a swiss knife.

 

[Raziel_888]

Didn't have the courage to read everything but here are my 2 cents:
-Predatory dive: like offered before, a "destroy your lower unit, then destroy the opponent's lower unit would solve the problem I think. Arachas Queen could still use it but why not? It's just a good card with that leader then
-Marauder is annoying but not the worst... If you get him when you have units on board he is more or less useless. He could be just one point in power though. I mean he doesn't need that much of a tweak
-So I don't know if many people think like me, but for me the strategic advantage is more about keeping something alive than the 5 point boost. Why not add a shield to the boosted unit? I think 5 + shield would not even be broken, considering that going first is still a disadvantage even with that and the mulligan, but otherwise make it 4 and a shield or something like that.
Like that it cannot be killed in one damage shot, only with direct removal...?