[Suggestion] Sixth Attribute – Empathy

[DLFin]

As many people here, I enjoy playing Cyberpunk 2077, but still think there are areas of the game in need of improvement. One of them is rather fundamental – its attribute system. I think that CP2077 and any future installment of the game series would greatly benefit from reintroduction of one of the core stats from its PnP RPG source – Empathy.

Let’s quickly review what the current attributes affect in-game:

• Body (BODY): physical toughness and close-quarters combat;
• Reflexes (REF): agility, ranged weapons, blades and critical chance;
• Technical Ability (TECH): crafting, tech weapons and armor;
• Cool (COOL): stealth, resistances and critical damage;
• Intelligence (INT): netrunning/quickhacking.

Empathy (EMP) would add two more aspects to player character builds, dealing with cyberware and NPC companions.

Per each attribute point invested (starting from level 3), Empathy could, for example, affect the base amount of cyberware slots available, reduce cyberware cooldowns and give some combat bonuses to your companion.

Empathy would govern two new skills: Humanity and Sociability.

Humanity

Humanity mechanics from PnP Cyberpunk can be adapted similarly to how Alchemy and Toxicity interact in the Witcher series. Humanity and Sociability skills and their perks would counteract most maluses from cyberware abuse and instead give you bonuses. However, “overdosing” on your implants, becoming a cyberpsycho and losing full control of your character (or even getting a game over) is not that fun gameplay-wise and probably shouldn’t happen in-game. Ripperdocs won’t let player character cross that threshold (and the biochip would probably prevent V from going full psycho, in any case).

Humanity Cost can be implemented as an additive “Cyberpsychosis” scale that would be shown in the Cyberware screen. Each piece of cyberware installed would cost varying amount of points (like back in the 2018 gameplay demo). Starting from about 25% of the scale, the player character should get a malus, related to Empathy (for example, a penalty to attribute checks in dialogues or to companion combat ability).

Perk ideas:

• Lowers Humanity Cost of cyberware;
• Increases Cyberpsychosis safety threshold to 50%;
• Lowers attribute requirements for cyberware;
• Lowers cyberware cooldowns;
• Increases cyberware effect duration;
• High-cyberpsychosis characters under 25% health get a temporary offensive bonus (dealing more damage, with increased reload and melee attack speeds, reduced quickhack and cyberware cooldowns).

Thoughts on cyberware overall:

Hard attribute requirements should be changed into soft requirements: any cyberware can be installed, but each missing required attribute point would make it less effective (this can be compared to the Body requirement for many guns), as well as increasing its Humanity Cost points.

Obviously, it would be great to have some of the existing implants in Legendary and Iconic variants, as well as completely new cyberware. (Here’s a good idea for two new Operating Systems tied to Technical Ability and Cool, that can change up playstyle similarly to Sandevistan and Berserk.)

Sociability

Sociability is derived from PnP RPG skills (Social, Leadership, Human Perception and Persuasion/Fast Talk). This is a social skill that would incentivize more interaction with other characters and utilize currently underused companion system.

V could hire somebody from one of the local gangs, using their hard-earned eddies and street cred. Of course, some of V’s friends would make even better partners-in-crime. (And, hopefully, CDPR will add more opportunities to spend time with our friends and love interests.)

Perk ideas:

• You can overcome dialogue checks of other attributes, using 2x Empathy (you persuade/lie, basically);
• Dialogue attribute checks are 25% easier;
• Increases rewards from gigs;
• Improves companion combat ability (several perks);
• Unlocks a unique companion ability (only for your friends).

As far as I can see, attribute checks in dialogues are mostly optional at the moment, but perhaps they can become more meaningful in future DLCs, opening up new paths in missions.


And that's the rough idea I've had in my head for past couple weeks. I don't think it'll ever be implemented, but I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

 

[CS554]

Humanity cost in tabletop is for the sake of game balance to prevent it being just one viable class game. Further, humanity cost was in game universe fluff reason to sell the idea to players.

What comes to this game, there's no game balancing reason as this is a single player game. Further, we learn from in game material that cyberpsychosis doesn't really exist but is something authorities, corps and media cooked up to mask real underlying issues in society. So this would go against in game lore.

In addition. Back in the day tabletop game got in trouble as some players couldn't tell the difference between fluff and real life and started thinking that people with prosthesis, limbs of war veterans for example, had somehow less humanity than the rest of population. Because of this controversy workaround was implemented by different classification for medical cyberware and other enhancements to maintain game balance.

There is no such cost in real world in ICD (international statistical classification of diseases and related health problems) and there's no reason to have it in Cyberpunk 2077. I'm not a fan of suggested mechanics either.

 

[DLFin]

I'm not suggesting adding in Empathy as a balancing restrictive measure, though?
It would instead give more flexibility to character builds, while expanding on cyberware and companion mechanics.
You can now have a build focused on Revolvers, Blades, Quickhacks, etc, etc, so why not a Cyberware build?
Besides that, I think that the game series would benefit from having a social stat, making it more of a RPG.

As for cyberpsychosis being real or not in CP2077 - that's rather debatable. I don't think we should dismiss a big part of Cyberpunk PnP lore just like that, as non-existing. We meet some people clearly under the effects of cyberpsychosis (for example, Melissa Rory and Lizzy Wizzy). True, the active cyberpsychos we find in-game have snapped from external factors. But does existance of a trigger make all of them not cyberpsychos? Isn't cyberpsychosis a gradual process that culminates in that triggering event?

If your problem is with terminology, then it can be changed to "Empathy Cost" (since that's what Humanity Cost does, it doesn't make characters less human in a wider sense, just less empathetic).

Anyway, real-world comparisons are weird, especially when talking about a fictional world set in "the dark future".
I wonder, does ICD say anything about the effects of being Soulkilled, or how to deal with a prototype biochip stuck in V's head?

 

[CS554]

Like I explained, your lore is fluff created for game balance reasons. It has no deeper meaning in game.

Humanity, empathy, you really aren't getting it. Why the heck it would cost anyone empathy or anything really? We have angioplasty, artificial hip joints, all kinds of prosthesis, there's been some progress in restoring sight by artificial means and none of that stuff makes people less capable of empathy, ICD also covers that, it's not there, it doesn't exist.

Cyberpunk is subgenre of science fiction, genre where most of it is actually magical crap to begin with, I'll give you that, but I don't see this feature would improve my experience.

 

[Fuse_00]

As many people here, I enjoy playing Cyberpunk 2077, but still think there are areas of the game in need of improvement. One of them is rather fundamental – its attribute system. I think that CP2077 and any future installment of the game series would greatly benefit from reintroduction of one of the core stats from its PnP RPG source – Empathy.

Let’s quickly review what the current attributes affect in-game:

• Body (BODY): physical toughness and close-quarters combat;
• Reflexes (REF): agility, ranged weapons, blades and critical chance;
• Technical Ability (TECH): crafting, tech weapons and armor;
• Cool (COOL): stealth, resistances and critical damage;
• Intelligence (INT): netrunning/quickhacking.

Empathy (EMP) would add two more aspects to player character builds, dealing with cyberware and NPC companions.

Per each attribute point invested (starting from level 3), Empathy could, for example, affect the base amount of cyberware slots available, reduce cyberware cooldowns and give some combat bonuses to your companion.

Empathy would govern two new skills: Humanity and Sociability.

Humanity

Humanity mechanics from PnP Cyberpunk can be adapted similarly to how Alchemy and Toxicity interact in the Witcher series. Humanity and Sociability skills and their perks would counteract most maluses from cyberware abuse and instead give you bonuses. However, “overdosing” on your implants, becoming a cyberpsycho and losing full control of your character (or even getting a game over) is not that fun gameplay-wise and probably shouldn’t happen in-game. Ripperdocs won’t let player character cross that threshold (and the biochip would probably prevent V from going full psycho, in any case).

Humanity Cost can be implemented as an additive “Cyberpsychosis” scale that would be shown in the Cyberware screen. Each piece of cyberware installed would cost varying amount of points (like back in the 2018 gameplay demo). Starting from about 25% of the scale, the player character should get a malus, related to Empathy (for example, a penalty to attribute checks in dialogues or to companion combat ability).

Perk ideas:

• Lowers Humanity Cost of cyberware;
• Increases Cyberpsychosis safety threshold to 50%;
• Lowers attribute requirements for cyberware;
• Lowers cyberware cooldowns;
• Increases cyberware effect duration;
• High-cyberpsychosis characters under 25% health get a temporary offensive bonus (dealing more damage, with increased reload and melee attack speeds, reduced quickhack and cyberware cooldowns).

Thoughts on cyberware overall:

Hard attribute requirements should be changed into soft requirements: any cyberware can be installed, but each missing required attribute point would make it less effective (this can be compared to the Body requirement for many guns), as well as increasing its Humanity Cost points.

Obviously, it would be great to have some of the existing implants in Legendary and Iconic variants, as well as completely new cyberware. (Here’s a good idea for two new Operating Systems tied to Technical Ability and Cool, that can change up playstyle similarly to Sandevistan and Berserk.)

Sociability

Sociability is derived from PnP RPG skills (Social, Leadership, Human Perception and Persuasion/Fast Talk). This is a social skill that would incentivize more interaction with other characters and utilize currently underused companion system.

V could hire somebody from one of the local gangs, using their hard-earned eddies and street cred. Of course, some of V’s friends would make even better partners-in-crime. (And, hopefully, CDPR will add more opportunities to spend time with our friends and love interests.)

Perk ideas:

• You can overcome dialogue checks of other attributes, using 2x Empathy (you persuade/lie, basically);
• Dialogue attribute checks are 25% easier;
• Increases rewards from gigs;
• Improves companion combat ability (several perks);
• Unlocks a unique companion ability (only for your friends).

As far as I can see, attribute checks in dialogues are mostly optional at the moment, but perhaps they can become more meaningful in future DLCs, opening up new paths in missions.


And that's the rough idea I've had in my head for past couple weeks. I don't think it'll ever be implemented, but I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

In other words, you want this game to be an RPG We all do my friend, but sadly it is story driven looter-shooter.

 

[DLFin]

Like I explained, your lore is fluff created for game balance reasons. It has no deeper meaning in game.

Humanity, empathy, you really aren't getting it. Why the heck it would cost anyone empathy or anything really? We have angioplasty, artificial hip joints, all kinds of prosthesis, there's been some progress in restoring sight by artificial means and none of that stuff makes people less capable of empathy, ICD also covers that, it's not there, it doesn't exist.

Cyberpunk is subgenre of science fiction, genre where most of it is actually magical crap to begin with, I'll give you that, but I don't see this feature would improve my experience.

Immersion into any fictional world requires some suspension of disbelief. Yes, Humanity and Cyberpsychosis don't fit well with our reality. But that just one of those quirks making the Cyberpunk world interesting and special.
(And, to be honest, almost all lore can be reduced to just fluff.)

Anyway, I don't see how giving more options to the player is a bad thing. You don't have to enjoy every single possible playstyle to have fun in the game. (If, for example, your favorite way to play is to be a "Speed Demon" and slash everything you see with a trusty katana, would expansion of the much slower Netrunning mechanics make the game less fun for you?)

In the end, it's okay that you don't like this suggestion. Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 

[EdAbra]

Talking about the social side of attribute "Streetwise" could be a tab inside the Empathy attribute as well, for a streetkid type (more thug/ Fancy looking)! along with let's say "Negociation" for the corpo type (more strategic/scammer oriented) and a perhaps a third more Nomad based like (Misfits/wildspace oriented), could be called "Freeman"

I came up with this idea too, and I have to say, too bad the game lacks a social attribute !

 

[DLFin]

Yeah, I think your idea works better as a skill tree. Also, adding lifepath-unique skill trees like that can be justified as some kind of replacement for Special Abilities that Cyberpunk PnP has for its Roles.

I'm all for making lifepaths more unique and impactful.
And if they ever decide to expand in-game RPG system, it would be cool to have even more skills.

 

[EdAbra]

I'm wondering if cyberware threshold could mix with "lifepaths", in some ways your system from PnP Cyberpunk could be a passive effect of having or not having points in empathy or all three branches of lifepaths social branches could be in one tab with one just for cyberwares, with edgy things like built in daemons for netrunner, or stealth specific mod tweaks, or extra slots.

Or in one tab cyberware overclocking, one for global interaction with people (see my other post above), and a third for social blending/interaction with environement ( screens, ads, special event, overall feel for people that meets you in cities or Wild spaces) for stealth, wealth, glory or terror.

 

[DLFin]

Hmm, I'm not sure.
Yes, some playstyles can be linked to certain lifepaths, and it would make them actually impactful, but too much of that and it begins to conflict with the current design philosophy of CP2077, i.e. one of total player freedom. (Some people won't be keen on a change like that.) My current idea is just to expand that freedom to a couple new fields - cyberware, companions and social interaction.

However, if we're talking about the future chapters of this game series, then some radical changes would make more sense.

About your idea specifically: different mechanics could be fit in one skill tab, if those mechanics deal with the same general topic (in your case, the character's lifepath). Some skill trees in-game are like that, e.g. Engineering has perks dealing mostly with Tech weapons, but also grenades.

Expanding a bit more on your idea, we could have all the Roles from PnP Cyberpunk adapted as lifepaths (the ten from the latest PnP edition, I guess). Then, someone who was a "Netrunner" in the past could have bonus perks related to Netrunning, someone who was a "Medtech" could have cyberware-related perks, etc, etc.

And here comes the problem of quantity vs. quality. I would honestly rather prefer to have three distinct lifepaths than nine or ten basic ones. Sadly, we have the worst of both worlds at the moment, just three shallow lifepaths, but that can, hopefully, be changed in future DLCs.

 

[EdAbra]

Let's not be mistaken here, I wasn't on the terrain of PnP Orthodoxy, but rather on how lifepaths could mix with RPG and Gameplay mecanics to have a better feel overall. I thought that your Idea of Empathy overall, not talking about the cyberware thing just on social skills, could eventually have an impact on different things, such as make enemy yield without a shot, have price reduction or special black market items with traders or being able to suggest a behavior.
I don't think my idea focus on quantity over quality since, it focuses on what the game doesn't explain well as well as on what could be operated better with a slightly better IA, crowd panic, stealth in general, enemy behaviour, even non IA related things like trader price or gears.

This could overall make the class kind of approach integrate better into the game world as a social status rather than a generic "I'm the Hero" (Or "I'm the guy") ...

The cyberware tab would have been light on Cyberware tweaks and overclocking and more on social enhancement and thus IA and NPC behavior influence which in my mind was probably what the game lacks the most. All of this through the already existing roleplay paths. My intent was to include mecanics your were talking about.

I fear that having an influence only on companions could feel superficial and contrast even more with everything you cannot influence, and feel really generic.
Aside, Ideas like Cyberware thresold while feeling like last deus ex (which probably took the idea from Cyberpunk 2020 anyway ^^) would make a lot of sense even though it would be a medical information and therefore be really hard to get, in therms of lore, I guess, for everybody else than you.
The humanity / Hearthless dilema is interesting in therm of story telling too, it's already there with all those corpo war veterans going psycho and stuff.

[Edit]

 

[DLFin]

Sure, anything to make the game more of a RPG is good in my books.