Suggestions for Rebalancing Nilfgaard

[Fargothwave]

Baiscally a place for everyone interested to suggest exact steps that need to be taken to balance NG, with numbers, reasoning and the like.

Please try not to devolve into ranting even though it's completely understandable and well-justified
Just don't or they will nuke this thread as well.
Most importantly, we have more chances to be heard if we stay civil. So please do.


It would be somewhat disrespectful to start such a threat without bringing anything to the table, so let me start with these points:

1) Assire var Anahid. She's the the only reason the infamous double ball is possilble, but her power isn't really limited to that. Today I've seen her used to replay Shupe and that was pretty ugly. Ball, after all, is what it is - 12 value and a chance to kill something for 14 provisions. It's (almost) fair - 14-provs are supposed to be the game changers, after all. But they shouldn't be allowed to be game changers twice. The solution is rather obvious - Assire shouldn't be able to target artifacts and spells. Especially considering she has a disproportionally good value on her own.

2) Poison as a mechanic. There're at least three good suggestions in the thread about poison, but my favorite is "purifying a unit grants it immunity against the statuses it had". This one makes a lot of sense - it would make purification a more meaningful mechanic, while adding some risk to using poison, which is exactly what it needs, as its main issue is how reliable it is. NG should be allowed to kill SOMETHING with poison (that's the point of the deck, after all), but not EVERYTHING.
The result would be an interesting mind game where both players try to guess what is worth poisoning/purifying and what isn't. I see a lot of potential for healthy mutual challenge here.

3) Vincent van Moorlehem, a.k.a. "try using that defender/delayed boost". This one is outright imbalanced, but isn't that hard to fix. Just limit him to NEGATIVE statuses and that will honestly suffice and make him a part of status-vs-purify mindgame. He would still be powerful, just not as lazy as he is right now.
upd: or, better yet, restrict him to bleeding specifically. That makes a lot of sense thematically (a big scary vampire!), but also adds an important dilemma to the use of Hunters.


4) Yennefer's Yoink could be a delayed (like, 2 turns) effect and a STATUS, like a time bomb. The reasoning is pretty much the same as before - she would still be very powerful, but actually interactible.

The general idea, again, is to make NG's killmoves actually counterable with tech, while making their opponents think really carefully what they want to save and what can be sacrificed. This dynamic has a noble chess-like feel to it, and honestly could be a lot of fun.


5) Damien. Can't continue doing what he's doing (replaying Enslave/Imposter is outright game-breaking), but I've no idea what he could be. Any proposals?

honorable mention:
Stefan Skellen. He's actually an okay guy, it's Bribery that is the problem. But this one is discussed elsewhere, I believe.

 

[4RM3D]

Baiscally a place for everyone interested to suggest exact steps that need to be taken to balance NG, with numbers, reasoning and the like.

Let's not [create another NG mega thread]. To quote the suggestions guidelines:
"In order to help the developers and the moderators better track individual suggestions in this sub-forum, please, try to avoid posting long lists of different ideas in a single topic. Separate topics for each idea are preferred."

I understand that when you have multiple ideas, you don't want to make a separate thread for every idea, especially when they are related. However, even then, I would keep this thread limited to discussing those ideas. Thus, for everyone else, if you have one or more new suggestions, please create a new thread in the suggestions forum.

PS. Thread moved to the suggestions forum and updated the topic.

 

[rrc]

1) Assire var Anahid. She's the the only reason the infamous double ball is possilble, but her power isn't really limited to that. Today I've seen her used to replay Shupe and that was pretty ugly.

Shupe card was Doomed and it was removed. The ONLY possible reason they removed the doomed status was to allow Assire to replay it. There was no other reason to remove the doomed status from that special card. Otherwise, NG players will have to spend a purify to remove the doomed status and reuse the same shupe. Now they can again re-roll and get the best for the given situation. I don't think this is going to go.

3) Vincent van Moorlehem, a.k.a. "try using that defender/delayed boost". This one is outright imbalanced, but isn't that hard to fix. Just limit him to NEGATIVE statuses and that will honestly suffice and make him a part of status-vs-purify mindgame. He would still be powerful, just not as lazy as he is right now.
upd: or, better yet, restrict him to bleeding specifically. That makes a lot of sense thematically (a big scary vampire!), but also adds an important dilemma to the use of Hunters.

That will simply kill that card. It is a powerful card and yet it is a costly one. I hate this card, but I don't think this card needs to be changed. I have seen Vincent played on a Scarab

4) Yennefer's Yoink could be a delayed (like, 2 turns) effect and a STATUS, like a time bomb. The reasoning is pretty much the same as before - she would still be very powerful, but actually interactible.

YenInvo is another annoying card. You can't/shouldn't play your powerful card in R1 or R2 for the fear of getting (theoritically) banished (and reused). But when this card is played, it puts 0 points on board. Some of the deploy cards that are stolen are low in power and hence it is a very low tempo. Again, I hate this card, but I think it is fine.

5) Damien. Can't continue doing what he's doing (replaying Enslave/Imposter is outright game-breaking), but I've no idea what he could be. Any proposals?

After Damien's row lock, I honestly think he is fine. With Enslave6 he can be 17 for 11 and with IF, he is 13 for 11, with Strategic Withdrawal he is very very conditional. As such, after row lock, this card is fine. Even in open beta NG had replay the leader ability.

 

[mazeebra]

I disagree with these things, NG need a rebalance, which is mostly that it needs a boost. Double ball need to go as it gives the wrong impression of the overall strength of Nilfgaard as a faction. All the abovementioned cards are fine or even need a boost (damien should not be rowlocked).

Alot of NG cards need a boost, in particular the sabotage ones, unless the developers plan to rebalance all currently deviating cards to the old balance.. in the current situation, alot of core NG types and cards are too weak to be usable or competitive, which is why these cards need a boost. Alot of them are bronzes.

Among the most urgent ones are lock, which value has been eroded greatly over time and need a boost in terms of tempo. The same goes for sabotage units, the drawback to the initial tempo is just too big with the current situation. Some soldiers also need improvements, most urgently slave infantry and darlean.

NG need a rebalance away from double ball back towards making sabotage and locks more viable again. The sad state of things is that Usurper/lockdown has now become a Shupe/Redeyah deck or double ball. All the old Usurper types are now too weak, and I personally want them back!

Any perceived problem is due to scenario, but this is not exclusive to NG. Scenario get a disproportionally huge value for 14 provisions, which has created the rather unfortunate scenario/bomb heaver situation.

 

[Guest 4395314]

At first people complained about Skellen and Damien, they got nerfed to the ground and it's quite easy to play around them these days, making them very often dead cards. That just completely killed off IF with soldiers only. Now people think it would be "fun" to also destroy the viability of poison ("rebalancing" is just very likely to nerf it, everyone knows that). Nilfgaard is okay, the only thing that MAYBE needs to be balanced is the ability to replay gold cards, whether or not it's ST, SK or NG.

 

[Fargothwave]

Shupe card was Doomed and it was removed. The ONLY possible reason they removed the doomed status was to allow Assire to replay it. There was no other reason to remove the doomed status from that special card. Otherwise, NG players will have to spend a purify to remove the doomed status and reuse the same shupe. Now they can again re-roll and get the best for the given situation. I don't think this is going to go.

The fact it's done doesn't mean it was a good decision. Shupe doesn't cost 13 for nothing - it's the ultimate multi-tool card, and that kind of versatility should come at a high price and be used at the right moment. Assire makes it possible to not think about the consequences of not using it at the best time - and she does it for cheap in terms of provision, which is especially jarring considering she has a body nearly matching her cost. The only comparable card in the game is Luiza, who works in a somewhat similar way, and she's got a nasty (not nasty enough if you ask me) nerf recently.

That will simply kill that card. It is a powerful card and yet it is a costly one. I hate this card, but I don't think this card needs to be changed. I have seen Vincent played on a Scarab

It's an instakill card with a body that also triggers aristocrat interactions. Its condition is basically always available with Imposter (and is especially nasty with it). Every other comparable card (say, Graden/Morelse) has a more difficult, specific and interactible condition while also boasting weaker bodies. And they're just 2 prov cheaper. Yet, I've seen both used to great effect after Cache got nerfed. I don't mind cost reduction on Vincent either, as long as his deploy is only triggered by bleeding. 9 seems fair. His current iteration is too lazy when compared to the examples above.
And if he gets bricked sometimes, it's only fair. After all, Yrdenss and Ignis (and countless other cards) do it all the time, so why make a special exception?

YenInvo is another annoying card. You can't/shouldn't play your powerful card in R1 or R2 for the fear of getting (theoritically) banished (and reused). But when this card is played, it puts 0 points on board. Some of the deploy cards that are stolen are low in power and hence it is a very low tempo. Again, I hate this card, but I think it is fine.

Don't you see the problem here?
You have to concede R1 for fear of getting your game-changer stolen. But you can't possible handle all the removal from NG without your better cards, so what you suggest is indeed giving up R1 most of the time which is a bit too much pressure from a single card - especially with all the pressure from different kinds of removal. All so that they can yoink your tallest unit as a last say (I find it highly unlikely for an experienced NG player to steal some low-power on-deploy thing).
And sure, it puts 0 points on board, but, incidentally, gives you a good shot at ruining you opponent's values. Either YI a tall engine, or YI a defender and then poison everything now that they're defenseless. That's not mentioning the fact that some of things you can steal with YI can work very well for you - defenders are self-explanatory, but there's also stuff like Malena, Cahir, Matrons and the like. Again, too much versatility for too little provision. At its weakest YI is an easy cheap(er) removal, at its strongest it ruins your opponent singlehandedly.

After Damien's row lock, I honestly think he is fine. With Enslave6 he can be 17 for 11 and with IF, he is 13 for 11, with Strategic Withdrawal he is very very conditional. As such, after row lock, this card is fine. Even in open beta NG had replay the leader ability.

There's nothing okay about Enslave 6 in general, and twice over in particular. I've had a game where I had exactly 0 value at the end, while my 'dear' emotion-spamming opponent had three of my (win-critical) units (and destroyed the rest of what I had with Helge and spells). Of course, it's not as effective against deploy-heavy decks and "wide" decks, but it's still 12 value shift in one go. And you can have two, if your Damien succeeds. 17 for 11 is okay in general, but is too generous with consideration of the fact that enslaving certain cards ruins certain strategies entirely.

Row lock doesn't change much for Damien - if you have row movement cards to remove him from melee row, there's always also a good chance they also pull out Letho...and if that doesn't work too, they just Bribe said movement cards out of your deck. Game over. Happened more than once, and Bribery seems to pull exactly what they need at any given moment (I am not the first person to notice that.)
All of the above goes for Skellen too, naturally, and yes, the triple Bribery feels like cheating, but at the very least he doesn't steal your units.
And again - just because it was in beta doesn't mean it's right for this ability to stick around. We'll see.

a small upd:
Besides, who even runs row movement in their decks? Some ST players, and an occasional Skelliger. It's a weakness of sorts, sure, but it's only relevant against few certain decks (most of which aren't even meta!). Apart from that, the only thing you can try is to kill Ffion and Damien as soon as they enter the field, but that, too, requires some extra-killy cards (especially if we're talking Greedy Formation here)

 

[Payus]

I have a suggestion to help balance poison while buffing spies, make poison be deployed by disloyal units, it even makes sense lore-wise, with units infiltrating your allies and poisoning them.

I would make fangs of the empire like a rot tosser, 1 str, disloyal, deploy poison a unit and boost an ally by 4.

Cobra king would be 2 str with 1 armor, deploy spawn a cobra(2 point unit) in the opposing row. Cobra doomed, token, deploy: poison adjacent units.

Of course rot tosser is too good, and should be 3-4 str with 1 armor maybe.

Those are the general idea, make poison a bit more interactable, but still strong and fun to play with it or vs it.

Making them spies would helo the aforementioned spy archetype, would still have great interactions with other spies like infiltrators copying poisons, disrupting opponnents row strategies and filling their row with spies that can be killed or used to enable regis, hen gaidth, gregoire, etc.

 

[mazeebra]

It's an instakill card with a body that also triggers aristocrat interactions. Its condition is basically always available with Imposter (and is especially nasty with it). Every other comparable card (say, Graden/Morelse) has a more difficult, specific and interactible condition while also boasting weaker bodies. And they're just 2 prov cheaper. Yet, I've seen both used to great effect after Cache got nerfed. I don't mind cost reduction on Vincent either, as long as his deploy is only triggered by bleeding. 9 seems fair. His current iteration is too lazy when compared to the examples above.

Vincent is quite fine as it is. It's an 11 provision card afterall.

With the annoying binary round win/loss condition of defender in the game, I think that a card like Vincent is more than justified.

 

[Payus]

Vincent is quite fine as it is. It's an 11 provision card afterall.

With the annoying binary round win/loss condition of defender in the game, I think that a card like Vincent is more than justified.

Then make Vincent neutral?

 

[mazeebra]

Then make Vincent neutral?

Nah.. He is NG. it's completely fine as it is.

Rather get rid of defenders and introduce some kind of new Geralt Quen instead. Defenders didn't work out well for this game.

 

[Fargothwave]

Nah.. He is NG. it's completely fine as it is.

Rather get rid of defenders and introduce some kind of new Geralt Quen instead. Defenders didn't work out well for this game.

Ummm, uhm with how things are right now, definitely not. If defenders weren't around, some cards wouldn't even be possible to play (everyone's packing a lot of 4p nukes, most SK and certain NG decks in particular). I do think they can be annoying and binary, but the thing is that this binarity isn't in their favor, as there're many ways to negate their presence. They also counter poison to a degree (in the sense they eat up two stacks to prevent more valuable units from getting them), which is something we need badly, but this just doesn't work against NG precisely because of Vincent (and YI, but that's another story). SY and ST don't have that kind of instant removal(and so many poisons), so when they do it, it's a lot less aggravating and way more healthy - as much as poison can be, anyway. I mean it's still an infuriating binary mechanic, but there is at least a decent chance of surviving them if you play your defended and purifications correctly. No such luck with NG, exactly because of their one-shot capacity.

But I disgress. Point is, defenders are a lesser (and necessary) evil right now, and they will be for as long as there're so many cheap removal options in the game. Vincent could be okay if everything else got toned down a bit. Right now his tendency to kill defenders makes every match against NG very one-sided, unless you're running one of the few boring decks that don't give much material for removal. Because there's no hope of keeping any decently tall units NG wants to kill.

 

[mazeebra]

Ummm, uhm with how things are right now, definitely not. If defenders weren't around, some cards wouldn't even be possible to play (everyone's packing a lot of 4p nukes, most SK and certain NG decks in particular). I do think they can be annoying and binary, but the thing is that this binarity isn't in their favor, as there're many ways to negate their presence. They also counter poison to a degree (in the sense they eat up two stacks to prevent more valuable units from getting them), which is something we need badly, but this just doesn't work against NG precisely because of Vincent (and YI, but that's another story). SY and ST don't have that kind of instant removal(and so many poisons), so when they do it, it's a lot less aggravating and way more healthy - as much as poison can be, anyway. I mean it's still an infuriating binary mechanic, but there is at least a decent chance of surviving them if you play your defended and purifications correctly. No such luck with NG, exactly because of their one-shot capacity.

But I disgress. Point is, defenders are a lesser (and necessary) evil right now, and they will be for as long as there're so many cheap removal options in the game. Vincent could be okay if everything else got toned down a bit. Right now his tendency to kill defenders makes every match against NG very one-sided, unless you're running one of the few boring decks that don't give much material for removal. Because there's no hope of keeping any decently tall units NG wants to kill.

You blame the problem on the wrong thing. It's scenario that allows poison spam. Without scenario poison is not that good. I'm all for removing scenarios as well. I think they were a major mistake alongside defenders and create huge imbalances in the rest of the game and very binary win/loss conditions.

There was an outcry when Skellen and Damien hid behind a defender like some cowards, but how do you really think it is like with other factions? It's just the bloody same thing, except everyone just hates on NG, while doing the exact annoying things themselves, just in a different way.

 

[Guest 4395314]

You blame the problem on the wrong thing. It's scenario that allows poison spam. Without scenario poison is not that good. I'm all for removing scenarios as well. I think they were a major mistake alongside defenders and create huge imbalances in the rest of the game and very binary win/loss conditions.

There was an outcry when Skellen and Damien hid behind a defender like some cowards, but how do you really think it is like with other factions? It's just the bloody same thing, except everyone just hates on NG, while doing the exact annoying things themselves, just in a different way.

Nothing to add.

 

[Qzman]

Damn, I wish Nilfgaard was as strong as this Nilfgaard-hating community makes it out to be... Shupe as well, that poor fu*ker hasn't seen tier 2 or above in a year. Double ball deck by latest estimates is tier 3, still the most salt inducing thing in existence, unbelievable...

 

[Gyg]

Damn, I wish Nilfgaard was as strong as this Nilfgaard-hating community makes it out to be... Shupe as well, that poor fu*ker hasn't seen tier 2 or above in a year. Double ball deck by latest estimates is tier 3, still the most salt inducing thing in existence, unbelievable...

According to TLG meta NG Formation is tier 1. Also in tournaments pretty much everybody take NG. And it has high amount of bans.

 

[Fargothwave]

You blame the problem on the wrong thing. It's scenario that allows poison spam. Without scenario poison is not that good. I'm all for removing scenarios as well. I think they were a major mistake alongside defenders and create huge imbalances in the rest of the game and very binary win/loss conditions.

There was an outcry when Skellen and Damien hid behind a defender like some cowards, but how do you really think it is like with other factions? It's just the bloody same thing, except everyone just hates on NG, while doing the exact annoying things themselves, just in a different way.

You missed the point, though. The poison spam is broken and will get nerfed soon enough, that much should be obvious.
But what of 4p specials? What of Helge/Ewald? Treachery/assassination? If we had no defenders, any attempts at using anything resembling an engine would be doomed by default - unless you're willing to run some kind of crutch in you deck, like two Thunderstorms or something like that. It isn't a healthy situation either. There should be a way to avoid having everything you try to play killed.
For now, Defenders are this way, like it or not.
The reason Damien and Skellen got so much hate in spite of doing "the same bloody thing" is rather obvious - things they can pull off can't really be even remotely compared even to the most potent engines. Also, you can get to said engines eventually and incapacitate them. Or even ignore them and try to outlast. Or Yrden them the turn before the end.

With these two, neither of the options is available. Double Bribery/Leader ability are a death sentence most of the time, so you can't really ignore them. And you only have two turns to stop them. So yes, while defenders have the same goal, the results are vastly different. With Skellen/Damien risk is much lower (because you don't have to actually keep them alive for more than 2 turns), while the reward is outstanding. No Igni/Yrden can ruin them afterwards, too.

If you want a fair comparison, look no further than any soldier-based NG build. Crossbowmen spam and Helge would be comparable to what non-NG people do with their defenders, yes, and contrary to what people say, it's not even a bad strategy.

 

[mazeebra]

You missed the point, though. The poison spam is broken and will get nerfed soon enough, that much should be obvious.
But what of 4p specials? What of Helge/Ewald? Treachery/assassination? If we had no defenders, any attempts at using anything resembling an engine would be doomed by default - unless you're willing to run some kind of crutch in you deck, like two Thunderstorms or something like that. It isn't a healthy situation either. There should be a way to avoid having everything you try to play killed.
For now, Defenders are this way, like it or not.
The reason Damien and Skellen got so much hate in spite of doing "the same bloody thing" is rather obvious - things they can pull off can't really be even remotely compared even to the most potent engines. Also, you can get to said engines eventually and incapacitate them. Or even ignore them and try to outlast. Or Yrden them the turn before the end.

With these two, neither of the options is available. Double Bribery/Leader ability are a death sentence most of the time, so you can't really ignore them. And you only have two turns to stop them. So yes, while defenders have the same goal, the results are vastly different. With Skellen/Damien risk is much lower (because you don't have to actually keep them alive for more than 2 turns), while the reward is outstanding. No Igni/Yrden can ruin them afterwards, too.

If you want a fair comparison, look no further than any soldier-based NG build. Crossbowmen spam and Helge would be comparable to what non-NG people do with their defenders, yes, and contrary to what people say, it's not even a bad strategy.

Well, I'm quite happy CDPR re-implemented armour and when they first (re)implemented shields. I think more could/should be done with this and the defender be removed from the game. One possible card to quickly move away from defender towards armour/shield is a new Geralt: Quen card. in the longer run, improving the armour and shield mechanic/interaction would be the better option.

Skellen and Damien can't be compared to engines? Really, alot of engines I know of get alot more value than Damien or Skellen, even in their old state. Even much lower provision engines get alot more value than Damien and Skellen.

 

[Qzman]

According to TLG meta NG Formation is tier 1. Also in tournaments pretty much everybody take NG. And it has high amount of bans.

Tournaments are not representative of game meta. Still, Imperial Formation is now strong but doesn't even use many cards deemed broken by the (vocal anti-Nilfgaard part of) community, who complained even while Nilfgaard was tier 3...

 

[Six-Sided-Prism]

I agree that Ffion var Gaernel, along with the rest of the Defender units, are rather unbalanced, but I don't think that they should be completely removed from the game. My suggestion would be to make the Defender ability only protect adjacent units/cards. That way, using them would actually require some strategy. Unrelated, but I don't really understand why Defender is a Status; it would make a lot more sense if it was just a keyword ability that could be locked.

About Damien de la Tour, I recall someone mentioning in another thread that his ability could be fixed by having it refresh the abilities of both players' leaders. That sounds like a good idea to me. If they did that, they could probably even lower his Provision cost and/or remove the Melee requirement.

About the initial suggestions made in the first post, I agree with the change to make Vincent van Moorlehem only destroy a unit with the Bleeding status and have his Provision cost lowered to something like 9. Also, I don't have a problem with the effects of Yennefer's Invocation and Bribery; they should just cost a couple of Provisions more than they currently do.

 

[Qzman]

Unrelated, but I don't really understand why Defender is a Status; it would make a lot more sense if it was just a keyword ability that could be locked.

Imagine the guilt Nilfgaard players would be expected to feel then, we'd never hear the end of it, there'd be riots with demands to delete the faction...