Suggestion: Summon mechanic. Please improve.

[Archan6el]

Thanks for the merge 4RM3D, I had forgotten about that previous thread.

In the last thread, I proposed to remove the summoning of opponent's units. This seems to be the easiest solution.

In the older thread, we were discussing to have the opponent draw a card in hand (like in beta), so that it can be played later. This seems the most interesting mechanic to me, but there are issues due to hand limit and an opponent who has passed not being able to play anymore. This could be solved by removing hand limit and a "Truce" whereby a player who has passed is "unpassed" and is then allowed to play or pass again.

 

[Archan6el]

Bump. I'm convinced the current "Summon" is a bad mechanic. Let's fix it by:
- Not allowing summoning of enemy units. This will prevent your good cards getting summoned to your side by the enemy and bricking. It makes no sense at all anyway that an enemy can summon a unit from your deck.
- Next step: Remove Summon altogether. Units that used to Summon your cards will now let you Play these cards.

Look at the new Portal card: "Summon a random unit with 4 provision cost from your deck on both sides of this card" for 13 provisions. The current Summon is limiting the use of this new card, as all 4 provision units with Deploy will be bricked.

 

[FG15-ISH7EG]

Isn't the point of summoning exactly to promote the use of engines?
While I agree that summoning enemy units is really frustrating, summoning your own units allows you to create your deck in a fitting way. If you want to use Portal you have to make sure that your only 4 provision cards are engines. The same for old reinforcements, which you could only use if you included enough bronze engines in your deck (and the problems that the card had could have easily been fixed in a different way).
Honestly I think the game needs more mechanics that promote engine play instead of point spam and not less of them.

 

[Archan6el]

Isn't the point of summoning exactly to promote the use of engines?
While I agree that summoning enemy units is really frustrating, summoning your own units allows you to create your deck in a fitting way. If you want to use Portal you have to make sure that your only 4 provision cards are engines. The same for old reinforcements, which you could only use if you included enough bronze engines in your deck (and the problems that the card had could have easily been fixed in a different way).
Honestly I think the game needs more mechanics that promote engine play instead of point spam and not less of them.

Summon enemy units is the worst part. Summon works for engine and Order cards, but bricks Deploy cards. Make it "Play" and it will make the game much more interesting, and it will still promote engines.

 

[Iuliandrei]

I like the idea of summon, it would be cool to support it with more units that have a negative deploy. I also don't understand how removing the ability to bypass deploy effects or the ability to disrupt opponent's combos makes the game "more interesting".

 

[SkiZophreniC]

Remove Summon altogether. Units that used to Summon your cards will now let you Play these cards.

Summon mechanics is ok, replacing summon by "play" is a nonsense as every summoning card should be reworked and balanced.

- Not allowing summoning of enemy units. This will prevent your good cards getting summoned to your side by the enemy and bricking. It makes no sense at all anyway that an enemy can summon a unit from your deck.

The possibility to summon ennemies is very interesting. The Tibor example shows that "playing" the ennemy card, enabling the deploy effect, would make the card unplayable.

Same for Vilgefortz, allowing various interesting situations with high risk/rewards dilemma.

I'm just taking a personnal example : yesterday I had Vilgefortz as last card, 25 points ahead my opponent. I saw my opponent preparing his last turn by putting his combo card at the top of his deck. I had two choices:
1) Vilgefortz on my 1 point unit and summon a card for points
2) Vilgefortz my opponent to break its combo.

Unfortunately I chose the option 1, I was afraid of Gregoire (even if he would not have won with Gregoire). Result: he draw Zoltan and used Vivienne for a 30 points slam and I lost.

This is just to underline how interesting the "summon ennemy" mechanic is and brings variety into the game. In my mind this example is exactly what the developers had intended to do with Vilgefortz, I should have recorded to send it to Burza so he would show the world how a great game Gwent is

 

[Archan6el]

I like the idea of summon, it would be cool to support it with more units that have a negative deploy. I also don't understand how removing the ability to bypass deploy effects or the ability to disrupt opponent's combos makes the game "more interesting".

Summoning enemy units makes no sense and is based on bad RNG. As it's RNG, you don't know if you will "disrupt opponent's combos". It's just a gamble, similar to Viper Witchers. Milling and removing cards from an opponent's deck like this is a crappy mechanic. If you think that is fun, then we have a different idea of a fun strategy game.

Summon mechanics is ok, replacing summon by "play" is a nonsense as every summoning card should be reworked and balanced.

It's nonsense because some work needs to be done? Wow, so what? It's not that many. It was already Play in beta Gwent.

The possibility to summon ennemies is very interesting. The Tibor example shows that "playing" the ennemy card, enabling the deploy effect, would make the card unplayable.

I don't find it interesting at all and it makes no sense to summon enemies. It's a battle remember? You don't summon enemies and mill the opponent's deck, especially not based on crappy RNG. So no summoning enemies and then Play is not applicable to Tibor. Tibor needs rework. Same for Vilgefortz.

 

[petr_klokan]

I am 100% sure that the intention of summoning an opponent's card is supposed to be a counterbalance for playing a 13 point Tibor, or in the case of Golyat, a counterbalance for consuming or reward for killing such a high point card. You write that you want to play a 13 point Tibor and on top of that also brick an opponent's card. The example of Tibor bricking an opponent's Zoltan is a horrible and completely OP mechanic. This needs rebalancing, Summon must allow a card to be played or put in hand (as it used to).

Sabrina is a spy, so she should be summoned to the opponent's row.

Mate, I am completely with you on this one.

 

[Iuliandrei]

Summoning enemy units makes no sense and is based on bad RNG. As it's RNG, you don't know if you will "disrupt opponent's combos". It's just a gamble, similar to Viper Witchers. Milling and removing cards from an opponent's deck like this is a crappy mechanic. If you think that is fun, then we have a different idea of a fun strategy game.

Chaos is order unrecognized by a lesser mind. It means it's not really RNG, every card that summons a unit has a preference and either gives you the ability to disrupt your opponent's strategy or gives you valuable information about their hand.

 

[Archan6el]

Chaos is order unrecognized by a lesser mind. It means it's not really RNG, every card that summons a unit has a preference and either gives you the ability to disrupt your opponent's strategy or gives you valuable information about their hand.

Fortunately I didn't use the word "chaos", otherwise I would take direct offense.

"it's not really RNG, every card that summons a unit has a preference" Sure, Tibor's preference is to summon the top unit from the opponent's deck to a random enemy row. That card is always the same, so that's not RNG right?

 

[Iuliandrei]

"it's not really RNG, every card that summons a unit has a preference" Sure, Tibor's preference is to summon the top unit from the opponent's deck to a random enemy row. That card is always the same, so that's not RNG right?

Nilfgaard has ways to manipulate the opponent's deck, by adding, removing or simply revealing cards from the top of their deck so you have a degree of control what you pull out with Tibor.

With that said, i'm not perfectly happy with how this works, i think Spotters should reveal the top unit aswell, instead of a random unit (Similar to how Alba Cavalry worked in beta), while Imperial Golem should could not shuffle the card after being revealed.
Both these changes, along other things that could be added, would make great additions to a style of play that feels appropriate for Nilfgaard and make cards like Tibor more tactical and reliable.

Also it would be cool to make Tibor summon the card on the opposite row (or always on the melee row), this would help setting up row effects or combo with cards like Slave Hunter.