Sunset Wanderer needs a nerf

[Markus_Wirth]

So what do we have:

A card that can easily be a 10 + draw a card costing 11 provisions. Just compare him to Dandelion: Poet he is a guaranteed 4 body + draw a card costing 11 provisions.
Of course one argue that he has some costs as he incentives you to play left cards or forces you to pass in round 1 as you do not want to have him spawn already in roudn 1 with less body. But thats basically it.

So I suggest some creative reworks which might also be combined for a nerf:

1)

Sunset Wanderers
Witcher, Human, Beast
This card starts in the leftmost position of your hand.
At the beginning of your turn, while in hand, move self one position to the right. If you pass a human unit boost self by one. if you pass a beast deal one random damage to an opponent unit. If you pass a witcher spawn a witcher student in a random allied row and damage it by 1.
At the end of your turn, if you haven't passed and there are no cards to the right of this card, Summon self from your hand to a random allied row, then draw a card.

=> This would really encourage you to build specific beast, human or witcher decks. Especially in witcher decks he might be an awesome help for Leo. So this card wont be autoinclude in non-devotion decks.

2)
Sunset Wanderers
Witcher, Human, Beast
If your starting deck has no cards costing 4 provisions, this card starts in the leftmost position of your hand.
At the beginning of your turn, while in hand, move self one position to the right then boost self by 1.
At the end of your turn, if you haven't passed and there are no cards to the right of this card, Summon self from your hand to a random allied row, then draw a card.

=> Very strong different limitation in deck building. Keep in mind that Sunset wanderers already costs 11 provsions.

3)
Implement some counter cards. Currently we only have Shilard Fitz-Oesterlen which could be considered to be a counter.
One might for example add a special costing 8 provisions allowing to draw a unit from your opponent hand. Or a card having the order to create a copy in your opponents hand after you have drawn a card.

 

[radesign]

1 - Skellige has already too many strong archetypes, no need to boost Bear Witcher Mentor deck with free witcher students...

Usually, all kinds of tall punish works against Wanderers - and you know, they have it.
destruction - Curse of Corruption, Scorch, several Geralts, Leo Bonhart, Morkvarg Pirate
reset power - as its just a boost - so, Yrden, Peter Gvynleve, Axii, reseting organic / alchemy card, Bloody Baron

Control decks kill it.
Engine decks outperform it.

 

[Sensimilius]

I don't understand what's the point of this card (in the strategy and fun factor), what it adds to the game other then just an automated pointslam. It adds no strategic elements to the game, you just jam it into ANY non-devotion deck and bam it always gives awesome value. You don't even do anything with it, it just passively boosts itself and then summons itself from your hand and draws you a card (YOU DON'T EVEN NEED TO DRAW IT)! -_-
This card existing doesn't make the game any more fun, it instead makes it less fun cause now effective card diversity is reduced since it fits too universally into any deck and gives very powerful value.
Might as well rename the thread into "Sunset Wanderers - The Autoinclude Problem" lol.

 

[chris_88]

More cards like this and we have a different kind of non-interactive deck

 

[Guest 4375874]

So what do we have:

A card that can easily be a 10 + draw a card costing 11 provisions. Just compare him to Dandelion: Poet he is a guaranteed 4 body + draw a card costing 11 provisions.
Of course one argue that he has some costs as he incentives you to play left cards or forces you to pass in round 1 as you do not want to have him spawn already in roudn 1 with less body. But thats basically it.

So I suggest some creative reworks which might also be combined for a nerf:

1)

Sunset Wanderers
Witcher, Human, Beast
This card starts in the leftmost position of your hand.
At the beginning of your turn, while in hand, move self one position to the right. If you pass a human unit boost self by one. if you pass a beast deal one random damage to an opponent unit. If you pass a witcher spawn a witcher student in a random allied row and damage it by 1.
At the end of your turn, if you haven't passed and there are no cards to the right of this card, Summon self from your hand to a random allied row, then draw a card.

=> This would really encourage you to build specific beast, human or witcher decks. Especially in witcher decks he might be an awesome help for Leo. So this card wont be autoinclude in non-devotion decks.

2)
Sunset Wanderers
Witcher, Human, Beast
If your starting deck has no cards costing 4 provisions, this card starts in the leftmost position of your hand.
At the beginning of your turn, while in hand, move self one position to the right then boost self by 1.
At the end of your turn, if you haven't passed and there are no cards to the right of this card, Summon self from your hand to a random allied row, then draw a card.

=> Very strong different limitation in deck building. Keep in mind that Sunset wanderers already costs 11 provsions.

3)
Implement some counter cards. Currently we only have Shilard Fitz-Oesterlen which could be considered to be a counter.
One might for example add a special costing 8 provisions allowing to draw a unit from your opponent hand. Or a card having the order to create a copy in your opponents hand after you have drawn a card.

The card is really only OP in certain decks but the reality is while neutral it so clearly benefits one deck more than any other.... NG. It's fairly balanced in other factions but the massive point swing it grants them along with Tactical Decision is ridiculous, especially in clog or mill decks. More non-interactive cards that you can only watch play out

 

[EduFerraz]

I don't understand what's the point of this card (in the strategy and fun factor), what it adds to the game other then just an automated pointslam. It adds no strategic elements to the game, you just jam it into ANY non-devotion deck and bam it always gives awesome value. You don't even do anything with it, it just passively boosts itself and then summons itself from your hand and draws you a card (YOU DON'T EVEN NEED TO DRAW IT)! -_-
This card existing doesn't make the game any more fun, it instead makes it less fun cause now effective card diversity is reduced since it fits too universally into any deck and gives very powerful value.
Might as well rename the thread into "Sunset Wanderers - The Autoinclude Problem" lol.

Agree with everything.

For me always when devs create a single cards its always an error.

Madoc was The same stupid thing and now sunset.

Why? Why?

 

[rrc]

1 - Skellige has already too many strong archetypes, no need to boost Bear Witcher Mentor deck with free witcher students...

Usually, all kinds of tall punish works against Wanderers - and you know, they have it.
destruction - Curse of Corruption, Scorch, several Geralts, Leo Bonhart, Morkvarg Pirate
reset power - as its just a boost - so, Yrden, Peter Gvynleve, Axii, reseting organic / alchemy card, Bloody Baron

Control decks kill it.
Engine decks outperform it.

You are missing one of the most important aspect of your suggestion. You are basically saying "He goes tall and there are all kinds of tall punish cards", but you are missing the point that, the opponent has to PLAY a card to counter this card which just comes to board for free. Your argument would make sense if Sunset Wanderer comes to board and skips the turn.

You should play a card and miss your turn to counter a card which just comes to board for free. The only true counter to sunset wanderers is sunset wanderers only. Ivar works great too, because, even though you are playing and using the turn, Ivar gets 20+ points in a turn which is more than enough to compensate for the turn.

Apart from this, there is no counter to this card which almost always plays/summons for 12+ points for free. You should also bite the bullet and add this card to counter the tempo this card gives. Which, IMO, is a horrible way to force this card in everyone's deck.

 

[Draconifors]

Apart from this, there is no counter to this card

Shilard says hello.

(Yeah, he's faction-locked, but he IS a counter.)

 

[Kessman]

Shilard says hello.

(Yeah, he's faction-locked, but he IS a counter.)

What about Kambi as well.

 

[Draconifors]

What about Kambi as well.

Technically yes, but since Kambi discards the rightmost card and Sunset Wanderers plays itself when it's the rightmost card, Kambi can only counter it if the opponent has passed.

Or with some Syanna combo, to discard two cards.

 

[rrc]

Shilard says hello.

(Yeah, he's faction-locked, but he IS a counter.)

Again, you are playing a card and using a turn to counter a card which summons self. This argument would make sense if you play Shillard on a dry pass R2, but then you haven't used him at his full potential.

If you have to play a card in your turn to counter a card that comes to board for free, you are basically giving a card advantage to the opponent which is what Sunset Wanderer demands.

 

[Draconifors]

which summons self

At 2 points (with perfect timing) instead of much more. You can't claim that does not make a difference because it certainly does, and therefore the card can be countered.

Under the right circumstances it can be, like was pointed out, entirely countered by Kambi, which I see you've not even addressed.

 

[Philido]

Agree with everything.

For me always when devs create a single cards its always an error.

Madoc was The same stupid thing and now sunset.

Why? Why?

Madoc at least requires you to include some bombs. Wanderers don't need anything at all to be effective. This card is a big mistake in its current state.

Post automatically merged: Jul 16, 2021

The card is really only OP in certain decks but the reality is while neutral it so clearly benefits one deck more than any other.... NG. It's fairly balanced in other factions but the massive point swing it grants them along with Tactical Decision is ridiculous, especially in clog or mill decks. More non-interactive cards that you can only watch play out

It's not only NG dude... have you seen the new Lined Pockets? It will be effective (and broken) in every pointslam deck that doesn't have Devotion (which will be the case for most of them now).

 

[Markus_Wirth]

1 - Skellige has already too many strong archetypes, no need to boost Bear Witcher Mentor deck with free witcher students...

Yes, probably that´s too much for SK witcher swarm and SK benefit from wounded. Maybe spawn a damage crow for each beast and one random damage for each witcher.

You are missing one of the most important aspect of your suggestion. You are basically saying "He goes tall and there are all kinds of tall punish cards", but you are missing the point that, the opponent has to PLAY a card to counter this card which just comes to board for free. Your argument would make sense if Sunset Wanderer comes to board and skips the turn.

You should play a card and miss your turn to counter a card which just comes to board for free. The only true counter to sunset wanderers is sunset wanderers only. Ivar works great too, because, even though you are playing and using the turn, Ivar gets 20+ points in a turn which is more than enough to compensate for the turn.

Apart from this, there is no counter to this card which almost always plays/summons for 12+ points for free. You should also bite the bullet and add this card to counter the tempo this card gives. Which, IMO, is a horrible way to force this card in everyone's deck.

Yes, this is something I also argue for drawing an additional card is extremely powerful. You are basically one card up as your opponent spent one card for tall punish against Sunset Wanderer.
Ivar is also a good counter for that card I have to admit.

Madoc at least requires you to include some bombs. Wanderers don't need anything at all to be effective. This card is a big mistake in its current state.

Post automatically merged: Jul 16, 2021

That´s my main point of critcism. I would really appreciate that card to support specific archetype and not to work in other archetypes.
Ok, currently it supports snowdrop via one additional draw. But even SpecimenGwent stated in his video that this card should be included in almost every non-devotion deck. And this is something I consider to be boring and unhealthy.

Do not get me wrong. I like the idea of creating cards which more or less get stronger in your hand. But current Sunset Wanderer is completely unstrategic and should be adjusted to fit only in specific archetypes. If Devs are not willing/able to do that they should at least increase its provisions significantly.

 

[EduFerraz]

At 2 points (with perfect timing) instead of much more. You can't claim that does not make a difference because it certainly does, and therefore the card can be countered.

Under the right circumstances it can be, like was pointed out, entirely countered by Kambi, which I see you've not even addressed.

Well still there is no diferrence using shillard or a killer tall unit like Geralt.

In fact, using Geralt to kill it or Shillard to put at 2 points will give the exact same value (Geralt 3 points and Sunset Dead or Shillard 5 points and Sunset at 2).

What people blaming its you need to use one card to deal with one card that is summoned. Its the same you need to use one card to kill roach or knickers - the difference its Roach and Knickers are 3 points and Sunset, ussually, its 8+

So the only viable counter is in fact using a double kambi with syanna, but that its too situational and noone will do that.

So, despite that crazy combo, there is no real counter to sunset (despite loosing one card to deal with a summoned card)

EDIT: ok there is also Yrden if there is others buffed units in sunset row. But if you are playing against skellige, yrden will be another unit only to deal with a spawned unit

 

[Draconifors]

Well still there is no diferrence using shillard or a tall unit like Geralt.

All that means is that tall removal also counters the card; it in no way disproves what I said.

Of course the card playing itself and then drawing is a major reason why it's called OP. No one was disputing that.

But to say there is NO counter when there in fact is even a total counter is just plain incorrect. That is my point. I dislike over-exaggerating statements, which are all too numerous when it comes to this game.

Judging by how many decks run the card it does seem to need a nerf; however, it's also still very new and part of its popularity stems from that.

 

[EduFerraz]

All that means is that tall removal also counters the card; it in no way disproves what I said.

Of course the card playing itself and then drawing is a major reason why it's called OP. No one was disputing that.

But to say there is NO counter when there in fact is even a total counter is just plain incorrect. That is my point. I dislike over-exaggerating statements, which are all too numerous when it comes to this game.

Judging by how many decks run the card it does seem to need a nerf; however, it's also still very new and part of its popularity stems from that.

Man, i know my english its not the best and in some discusions i have the feeling you abuse about that.

But read again what RRC wrote and the part you quote him.

Its clear he said "apart from this". And what is the "apart from this" he is reffering? Of course its his previous paragraph where he said you need to use one card to counter a summoned card.

So i agree with him, apart of this (using one card to counter a summoned card) there is no counter for sunset (ok ok, we have the kambi sianna combo)

 

[Draconifors]

Someone resorting to accusations is where I will no longer discuss with them.

 

[EduFerraz]

Someone resorting to accusations is where I will no longer discuss with them.

Have the feeling its not an acusation...

But well, fine, stay with your opinion and i stay with my.

"it is whats it is"

 

[Kessman]

A suggestion came to my mind.

What if SW resets its position and power each round?

Then it still has a value, and it will be easier to balance the card by the provision (I mean, you can even lower its provision if needed). Because now, if just higher its provision, the card might step into an unplayable area.