Sunset Wanderer needs a nerf

+
The autoinclude wanderer is the reason why i quit Gwent.

It is enough for me right now, first Jackpot and Blightmaker + Dead Mans tounge failure and now the autoinclude wanderer...

I understand that new cards have to be above average so they are bought and a company needs to make money for the effort they put in.

But if people come to the idea you have to make these cards autoincludes in nearly every single deck i lose hope. And the worst thing about it is that we have to wait a whole month for them to hotfix the broken cards. A whole season is gone every single time this happens. I dont understand it.

It takes the fun completely away from me.

Best Regards
 
All that means is that tall removal also counters the card; it in no way disproves what I said.

Of course the card playing itself and then drawing is a major reason why it's called OP. No one was disputing that.

But to say there is NO counter when there in fact is even a total counter is just plain incorrect. That is my point. I dislike over-exaggerating statements, which are all too numerous when it comes to this game.

Judging by how many decks run the card it does seem to need a nerf; however, it's also still very new and part of its popularity stems from that.
Of course there are certain counters, even the strongest cards have them. The only good one I can think of however is Kambi, and this card just completely sucks in every other match-up and is all about luck. Tall punish doesn't work too well, because even if you hit SW with Geralt or Heatwave, your opponent will still have the drawn card which can be expected to at least play for another five or six points, making the player who tall punished actually trade down. And if you look at all of your options to deal with Wanderers, it's actually fair to say that this card "has no real counter".
 
  • RED Point
Reactions: rrc

Guest 4375874

Guest
Madoc at least requires you to include some bombs. Wanderers don't need anything at all to be effective. This card is a big mistake in its current state.
Post automatically merged:


It's not only NG dude... have you seen the new Lined Pockets? It will be effective (and broken) in every pointslam deck that doesn't have Devotion (which will be the case for most of them now).
Didn't say it was just NG. Lined pockets however will not have this beyond a gimmick when they already dominate the removal sphere. To lose devotion and the benefit of several removal options including weakening Whoreson just to add a big body, that will eventually pass. Adding to that while they have some cards that can boost Sunset Wanderer they do not have nearly as much deck control as NG or cards that benefit from it. in R1 playing NG you can essentially draw as many cards as you want knowing not only will Sunset Wanderer benefit but so does several other cards including Kolgrim. I came across a mill deck that used Sunset Wanderer. Between the mills Kolgrim, Wanderer and then they just dropped Tibor after emptying my deck. The reality is they have more incentive to use this card more than any other faction and it shows. 9/10 times I encounter this card it's with NG.

It just takes me back to Ciri Nova. Everyone thought the card was interesting at first but from the start it very clearly fit perfectly in one faction more than any other because they not only have the cheapest counters to it but they have relatively cheap cards that can play for high value.
 
it's actually fair to say that this card "has no real counter".
And that is not the argument I was commenting on. You're making the exact same mistake the other person did.

The devil is in the details, and one should pay attention to those details if one is going to try to counter something I've said about those details. Every word or lack thereof counts...
 
And that is not the argument I was commenting on. You're making the exact same mistake the other person did.

The devil is in the details, and one should pay attention to those details if one is going to try to counter something I've said about those details.
Okay, well like the others it seems I have no clue what you are actually trying to say then. My point is just that tall punish doesn't work at all and the real counters of the card (which attack not only the card's body, but also its effect) are way too situational. At least I hope we all can agree that this card needs a nerf :)
Post automatically merged:

Didn't say it was just NG. Lined pockets however will not have this beyond a gimmick when they already dominate the removal sphere. To lose devotion and the benefit of several removal options including weakening Whoreson just to add a big body, that will eventually pass. Adding to that while they have some cards that can boost Sunset Wanderer they do not have nearly as much deck control as NG or cards that benefit from it. in R1 playing NG you can essentially draw as many cards as you want knowing not only will Sunset Wanderer benefit but so does several other cards including Kolgrim. I came across a mill deck that used Sunset Wanderer. Between the mills Kolgrim, Wanderer and then they just dropped Tibor after emptying my deck. The reality is they have more incentive to use this card more than any other faction and it shows. 9/10 times I encounter this card it's with NG.

It just takes me back to Ciri Nova. Everyone thought the card was interesting at first but from the start it very clearly fit perfectly in one faction more than any other because they not only have the cheapest counters to it but they have relatively cheap cards that can play for high value.
The Lined Pockets deck I've seen and used (I think it's originally from SpyroZA) doesn't care about Devotion anyway. Other factions, not only NG, also clearly benefit from hefty pointslam AND thinning. Mark my words, if this doesn't get changed soon there will be almost no Devotion out there any more because of this card.
 
The autoinclude wanderer is the reason why i quit Gwent.

It is enough for me right now, first Jackpot and Blightmaker + Dead Mans tounge failure and now the autoinclude wanderer...

I understand that new cards have to be above average so they are bought and a company needs to make money for the effort they put in.

But if people come to the idea you have to make these cards autoincludes in nearly every single deck i lose hope. And the worst thing about it is that we have to wait a whole month for them to hotfix the broken cards. A whole season is gone every single time this happens. I dont understand it.

It takes the fun completely away from me.

Best Regards
And the most depressing thing is they don't seem to learn from previous feedback, bad designs keep happening again and again, and as you said it takes A MINIMUM of one month to fix anything, some things wait for 2 or more months (or never) to be fixed. :l
 
It's a pretty ridiculous card. Not only it's a free play that thins a deck and cannot be prevented in any way, it can also - unlike other summon self thinning card - outvalue its provision cost. Maybe it's not auto-win, but there's really no reason not to include it in a non-devotion deck right now (and even less reason to play devotion). And the fact that it's best suited for NG hyperthin and SK discard, which were already tempo-heavy and consistent to begin with, does not help.

No real idea how to nerf it without killing the entire thing. maybe make it trigger when there's 1 or 2 cards left on the right instead of none, idk.
 
I think The right way to fix The card its to take off The summon thing.

So its buffed every turn, but when reach The right most its stopped to buff and you need to play it.

So The idea to try to play The left cards will continue, since The player Will whant to buff as much as possible The card. But it wont summons itself and it can be player whenever you whant (of course you dont buy a card when play it).

Also it can down some provisions in that way, despite i think it will usually be played in Last round as a finisher with 10+ power, só maybe its ok at 11 provision.
 
It may not take that much to balance the card. Comparing dandelion: poet, both cards essentially deploy a unit without costing a turn to play it. The expert players I listen to seem to agree that Dandelion’s 4 point body is generally too costly at 11 provisions. By comparison, Sunset warriors has two advantages: it typically plays for far more value and it is guaranteed to be in deck. It has disadvantages of somewhat restricting order cards can be played to maximize its value, players can only partially control when it is played, and opponents can see it move in your deck.

Sunset warriors has become autoinclude because it generates too much value for too little cost even when it has no synergy in a deck. The best solution is to make it harder to automatically obtain value. When played in round one, it typically only played for 6 or 7 points — and I bet at 13 provisions, that would not be attractive. The problem is more when it plays for 10 to 15 in round 2 or 3.

I would suggest balancing it by these changes:

First increase provisions to 12. Assuming it plays for 6 or 7 with little effort, and Dandelion is slightly overpriced, this seems reasonable.

Second, at round end, if not played, decrease its power by two. That way, to reasonably achieve values much above 6 or 7 — even in later rounds, you must design a deck to draw cards to its right.

Third, remove the condition that the card will not play after the owner has passed. This gives the opponent more opportunities to interact with the card.

Of course, I might be over-nerfing. Provisions can be adjusted if so.
 

rrc

Forum veteran
It may not take that much to balance the card. Comparing dandelion: poet, both cards essentially deploy a unit without costing a turn to play it. The expert players I listen to seem to agree that Dandelion’s 4 point body is generally too costly at 11 provisions. By comparison, Sunset warriors has two advantages: it typically plays for far more value and it is guaranteed to be in deck. It has disadvantages of somewhat restricting order cards can be played to maximize its value, players can only partially control when it is played, and opponents can see it move in your deck.
Well, you can't compare Dandelion Poet to SW. Dandelion Poet can be played early for a tempo and he allows to play the card that was drawn where SW wont allow that. I am not saying DP is more userful or powerful, but we can't compare these two just because it puts points on board and draws a card.

Actually, the more I think about it, I don't know how to balance it without completely destroying this card. An increase in provision, even by one will make this card not so good and may make it even unplayable/unaddable. May be add a value cap to this so that if it reaches 8 or 9 power, it will come out and draw a card, even here people can know when this card will pop-out by the turn number? But I think, in next patch we will get even more powercreeping cards so that this will become no so attractive.

I can think of another way, which is a general thing. Add devotion to more and more cards and incentivize playing devotion decks. While neturals are amazing techs and have really good cards, people should think more about going devotion as it incentivizes equally good.
 
Actually, the comparison with Dandelion poet is apt. Think of it like this: with poet, you play poet first, then a card, which may or may not be what you drew. With wanderers, you play a card, then wanderers pops out. The net effect on a turn is the same — you get to choose a card to play, and either poet or wanderer appears on the board with that card,

The big difference of not getting to choose exactly when wanderer was played was acknowledged. I guess there are two minor differences I did not mention: Damdelion gives the option to play the card you drew (giving one more option), and Dandelion deploys the cards in the opposite order (Dandelion then card as opposed to card then Sunset). I don’t think either of these significantly affect the cards’ values.

I don’t know the effect of a 1 provision increase — if you really want the card, you find something to trade for it. It is clear that at 11 provisions, nearly everybody wants wanderer and almost no one wants poet. Despite the difference in mechanics getting and using the card, it is clear that 4 extra points from Dandelion is not considered worth the 11 provisions while 6 to 15 extra points from Wanderers is considered a bargain for 11 provisions. I think usually a provision is worth about 1.5 value (although that depends upon context). If so, I think wanderer can take a one point provision increase or more.
Post automatically merged:

I also don’t know how to evaluate the restrictions on how sunset wanderer affects the play of the hand and ability to control the timing of when it is played. It is easy to compute what being guaranteed sunset warriors in your opening hand is worth. You are guaranteed an 11 provision card. If having it were not guaranteed, you would have about a 7/36 chance of not drawing it (slightly more on red coin, slightly less on blue). Thus, if you consider an average leader to give 15 provisions, the expected value drawn is
(1 - 7/36)*11 + 7/36 * 154/24 = 10.11. So being guaranteed an 11 point card in hand is worth about .9 provisions.
 
Last edited:
I wouldn't mind just nerfing it into a dead state. One more dead card on top of an already existing pile of dead cards is not nearly as much of an issue as an OP card that pushes out other cards into obsolescence and is in any deck in the game.
 
I don't know why they made it to move at the start of the turn.
I think it's much more elegant for all its effects to happen at the end of the turn, this would also represent a small because you have 1 fewer cards to it's left during your turn and it also makes it vulnerable to to kambi.
 
Actually, the comparison with Dandelion poet is apt. Think of it like this: with poet, you play poet first, then a card, which may or may not be what you drew. With wanderers, you play a card, then wanderers pops out. The net effect on a turn is the same — you get to choose a card to play, and either poet or wanderer appears on the board with that card,

The big difference of not getting to choose exactly when wanderer was played was acknowledged. I guess there are two minor differences I did not mention: Damdelion gives the option to play the card you drew (giving one more option), and Dandelion deploys the cards in the opposite order (Dandelion then card as opposed to card then Sunset). I don’t think either of these significantly affect the cards’ values.

I don’t know the effect of a 1 provision increase — if you really want the card, you find something to trade for it. It is clear that at 11 provisions, nearly everybody wants wanderer and almost no one wants poet. Despite the difference in mechanics getting and using the card, it is clear that 4 extra points from Dandelion is not considered worth the 11 provisions while 6 to 15 extra points from Wanderers is considered a bargain for 11 provisions. I think usually a provision is worth about 1.5 value (although that depends upon context). If so, I think wanderer can take a one point provision increase or more.
Post automatically merged:

I also don’t know how to evaluate the restrictions on how sunset wanderer affects the play of the hand and ability to control the timing of when it is played. It is easy to compute what being guaranteed sunset warriors in your opening hand is worth. You are guaranteed an 11 provision card. If having it were not guaranteed, you would have about a 7/36 chance of not drawing it (slightly more on red coin, slightly less on blue). Thus, if you consider an average leader to give 15 provisions, the expected value drawn is
(1 - 7/36)*11 + 7/36 * 154/24 = 10.11. So being guaranteed an 11 point card in hand is worth about .9 provisions.
I think auto summon cards like Aelirenn are a better comparison than the poet. Now imagine an 11p Aelirenn that pops out for 6 if condition met in round 1, 11 in round 2, and for 15 if it's met in round 3. I can already hear the cries. Now imagine this card is neutral and has no restrictive elf-only condition. Yeah... it's like that.
 
I think auto summon cards like Aelirenn are a better comparison than the poet. Now imagine an 11p Aelirenn that pops out for 6 if condition met in round 1, 11 in round 2, and for 15 if it's met in round 3. I can already hear the cries. Now imagine this card is neutral and has no restrictive elf-only condition. Yeah... it's like that.
This comparison is not bad either — though Knickers or Rejk might be even better. Poet differs in that Poet must be drawn while Sunset, Aelirenn, Knickers, (and other cards that pop from deck) are automatic. And most pop from deck cards give the player close to the same level of control over when the card gets played as Sunset, while Poet gives much more control. But both Poet and Sunset absorb handspace and reduce play choices, while pop from deck cards don’t. And pop from deck cards can brick by being drawn. Regardless of which you choose to compare Sunset warriors to, I think it is fairly obvious that Sunset plays for too much value — especially in rounds 2 and 3.
 
So what do we have:

A card that can easily be a 10 + draw a card costing 11 provisions. Just compare him to Dandelion: Poet he is a guaranteed 4 body + draw a card costing 11 provisions.
Of course one argue that he has some costs as he incentives you to play left cards or forces you to pass in round 1 as you do not want to have him spawn already in roudn 1 with less body. But thats basically it.

So I suggest some creative reworks which might also be combined for a nerf:

1)

Sunset Wanderers
Witcher, Human, Beast
This card starts in the leftmost position of your hand.
At the beginning of your turn, while in hand, move self one position to the right. If you pass a human unit boost self by one. if you pass a beast deal one random damage to an opponent unit. If you pass a witcher spawn a witcher student in a random allied row and damage it by 1.
At the end of your turn, if you haven't passed and there are no cards to the right of this card, Summon self from your hand to a random allied row, then draw a card.

=> This would really encourage you to build specific beast, human or witcher decks. Especially in witcher decks he might be an awesome help for Leo. So this card wont be autoinclude in non-devotion decks.

2)
Sunset Wanderers
Witcher, Human, Beast
If your starting deck has no cards costing 4 provisions, this card starts in the leftmost position of your hand.
At the beginning of your turn, while in hand, move self one position to the right then boost self by 1.
At the end of your turn, if you haven't passed and there are no cards to the right of this card, Summon self from your hand to a random allied row, then draw a card.

=> Very strong different limitation in deck building. Keep in mind that Sunset wanderers already costs 11 provsions.

3)
Implement some counter cards. Currently we only have Shilard Fitz-Oesterlen which could be considered to be a counter.
One might for example add a special costing 8 provisions allowing to draw a unit from your opponent hand. Or a card having the order to create a copy in your opponents hand after you have drawn a card.
Try to include Spores in your deck if this card is causing you a problem. Sunset Wanderers is very easy to foresee it coming, you could simply wait for your enemy to pass earlier in first round. They usually do that so the card is not summoned from their hand.
 
I feel quite the same, I found more and more pure pointslam decks with absurd points for provision cost such as Viy (easy too beat if you bleed Haunt), Lippy (hard matchup except if they don't have a good starting hand, very flexible and consistent), NG hyperthin (easy to counter with mill ofc but a nightmare for midrange decks)

Each of these decks have a very good new card with Sunset Wanderers (which win R1 or make the adversary commit a lot R1 or protect A LOT vs a bleeding R2).

I find the current meta annoying with all these decks which are not exactly "autoplay" but have always the same exact plan, and YOU KNOW IT but you can't really counter it except if you have 1) perfect counter deck or 2) perfect card draw (which is harder if you don't play this kind of deck).

I feel like CPDR should do something about Sunset Wanderers, it makes the game less enjoyable in the end
 
What really needs a nerf is kolgrim. I'm boring of 99% of games playing against noob op double kolgrim decks that are literally uncounterable when they are combined with the wanderers + renov spell.
 
Top Bottom