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Supply and demand/economy

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wisdom000

wisdom000

Forum veteran
#21
Apr 11, 2014
suhiir said:
Can't say as I'll miss the roles much, but they should make an effort to retain as many skills as make sense (I sure wouldn't hold my breath for Credibility, Family, etc.)
Click to expand...
Well, I can't say I would miss them as they were originally written either, Authority, Credibility, Family, Resources, Charismatic Leadership.............. they are all kinda vague and abstract, with no real expectations or limits for what they actually cover, and no set rules for how they are to be utilized.... which of course is why I did what I did with them in IU.

Rules themselves should avoid being abstract as much as possible.... especially when said rule is presented as one of the main features or focuses of the game....
 
Sardukhar

Sardukhar

Moderator
#22
Apr 11, 2014
wisdom000 said:
Well, I can't say I would miss them as they were originally written either, Authority, Credibility, Family, Resources, Charismatic Leadership.............. they are all kinda vague and abstract,
Click to expand...
Charismatic Leadership was pretty clear - find a crowd, do your thing, sway crowd to do what you want. Difficulty of swaying crowd up to Ref, of course, like all tasks. I do like that at CL 10, you could get a crowd of 20,000 to do what you say. You know - an army. Literally, if you were on an army base.

Authority was..yeah, less clear. Added to Cool..and..other skills? Backed by a badge? Why would you need the skill?

The others are sort-of vague. You are asking for hard and fast rules on some pretty open stuff, though. Credibility, for example. You or I could report a story or a fact and the Ref would decide who did or didn't believe it and what effect it had. The Ref would make a couple rolls, probably based on how we told the story and boosted or reduced by the methods used. Then a target number - the higher, the more persuasive. Credibility would add to that total.

Rules can be totally abstract and still fun. As long as the Ref and the players cooperate. It leaves them much more open to improvisation.
 
wisdom000

wisdom000

Forum veteran
#23
Apr 11, 2014
Sardukhar said:
Charismatic Leadership was pretty clear - find a crowd, do your thing, sway crowd to do what you want. Difficulty of swaying crowd up to Ref, of course, like all tasks. I do like that at CL 10, you could get a crowd of 20,000 to do what you say. You know - an army. Literally, if you were on an army base.

Authority was..yeah, less clear. Added to Cool..and..other skills? Backed by a badge? Why would you need the skill?

The others are sort-of vague. You are asking for hard and fast rules on some pretty open stuff, though. Credibility, for example. You or I could report a story or a fact and the Ref would decide who did or didn't believe it and what effect it had. The Ref would make a couple rolls, probably based on how we told the story and boosted or reduced by the methods used. Then a target number - the higher, the more persuasive. Credibility would add to that total.

Rules can be totally abstract and still fun. As long as the Ref and the players cooperate. It leaves them much more open to improvisation.
Click to expand...
Authority and Resources were also entirely dependent on you actually being employed...
 
Sardukhar

Sardukhar

Moderator
#24
Apr 11, 2014
wisdom000 said:
Authority and Resources were also entirely dependent on you actually being employed...
Click to expand...
Yeah, true. Although since that was an unfair limiting factor, I interpreted it differently. Authority could be used to bluff, if you'd been fired or suspended. It also worked if you were a bounty hunter or private investigator or lawyer or a congressional/senate investigator or any entity employed by the above or a lawful authority. Really, I treated it as the player's "Righteousness" stat. Their conviction - rightful or wrongful, real or bluff - carried through for their commands.

Resources raises a good question. What is a Corp if they aren't a Corp? Vis-a-vis the actual topic, I would say a Corporates Resources skill worked even when not employed by a major corporation, letting him move funds and favours to command corporate resources. Leverage hedge funds, blackmail managers, etc. This is different than the Fixer skill of Streetdeal, since that refers to access to information and personnel on a Street, not Corporate level.

A cross Fixer/Corp would be a might force indeed.
 
Suhiira

Suhiira

Forum veteran
#25
Apr 11, 2014
I think those were left vague on purpose.
Each GM and player is going to have their own interpretation of just what those role skills were good for and how far-reaching their effects would be.
Better a set of general guidelines then the pages of rules that would be necessary to explain exactly how each applies in various situations/circumstances.
 
Decatonkeil

Decatonkeil

Forum veteran
#26
Apr 11, 2014
Sardukhar said:
Yeah, true. Although since that was an unfair limiting factor, I interpreted it differently. Authority could be used to bluff, if you'd been fired or suspended. It also worked if you were a bounty hunter or private investigator or lawyer or a congressional/senate investigator or any entity employed by the above or a lawful authority. Really, I treated it as the player's "Righteousness" stat. Their conviction - rightful or wrongful, real or bluff - carried through for their commands.

Resources raises a good question. What is a Corp if they aren't a Corp? Vis-a-vis the actual topic, I would say a Corporates Resources skill worked even when not employed by a major corporation, letting him move funds and favours to command corporate resources. Leverage hedge funds, blackmail managers, etc. This is different than the Fixer skill of Streetdeal, since that refers to access to information and personnel on a Street, not Corporate level.

A cross Fixer/Corp would be a might force indeed.
Click to expand...
Aren't there versions of the same skill for different roles in CP2020? I think I read somewhere that there were things like "Family (nomad)" and "Family (ganger)" and that while they worked the same way they had different effects. We can assume that their "families" are different, but maybe they can call them in different numbers... maybe we could have "Resources (corporate)" and "Resources (mobster)", "Authority (cop)" and "Authority (whatever)".
 
wisdom000

wisdom000

Forum veteran
#27
Apr 12, 2014
I just ditched the ambiguity.... makes for a much easier time... it was that or ditch roles altogether.....
 
S

satibel.853

Forum regular
#28
Apr 12, 2014
steambot chronicles has a pretty interesting side quest which lets you help a journal at the edge of collapsing, by gathering news and such, and after doing some stuff (like pushing out bandits who blocks a tunnel) the stock of the journal rises, so you can buy dirt cheap shares of the journal, and sell them at high profit, after beating some bandits and stuff. also I would like to see the economy react to what you buy and sell, so for example if you buy 1000 medi-packs their price should rise, as they become more scarce, and same thing for selling, they price should drop, as there's more to sell, if you sell 1 big diamond, it sells for 10k, if you sell 10, the last one is sold for 7k, for example.
 
P

Poet_and_Gentleman.598

Rookie
#29
Apr 12, 2014
Good ideas all around... I agree that someone should be able to ignore the economic aspect and just play a regular grunt

Still, I believe that this guy has a good handle on the future of RPG economics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4PVSIShRgM

and I'd like if it could be exploited/explored in depth by the enterprising player.
 
Last edited: Apr 12, 2014
P

Poet_and_Gentleman.598

Rookie
#30
Apr 12, 2014
E.g. You should be able to complete the game while poor and not have a crazy hard time doing so. .

But it shouldn't be like GTA where you are automatically a millionaire for completing the game
 
S

satibel.853

Forum regular
#31
Apr 12, 2014
poet_and_gentleman said:
Good ideas all around... I agree that someone should be able to ignore the economic aspect and just play a regular grunt

Still, I believe that this guy has a good handle on the future of RPG economics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4PVSIShRgM

and I'd like if it could be exploited/explored in depth by the enterprising player.
Click to expand...
this is a pretty good principle for an economy.
 
chriswebb2020.736

chriswebb2020.736

Forum veteran
#32
Apr 12, 2014
I totally agree with you poet. A reactive and diverse economy is something I really hope to see and manipulate as a Fixer and/or Corp type character.
 
Harthwain

Harthwain

Rookie
#33
Jun 19, 2014
Discussion about economy can't be done without answering basic questions:

1) Why people buy?
2) What people buy?
3) How people get money to buy?

4) Why people sell?
5) What people sell?
6) How people get items to sell?

Ad. 1: People buy items they need or want. Not everything they want they need. Basic items are in higher demand when need is not fulfilled. Advanced items are bought when need is fulfilled and person still has expendable amount of money to buy.

Ad. 2: People buy items in the following order: basic items - advanced items.

Basic items are necessities required for survival. These are the items you need. In the in-game terms that would be things like: ammo, basic medical supplies, addictive drugs, etc. Consumables have varying degree of need. You need to bandage your bleeding wound to survive, but it's up to you when to do so. You need ammo to use your weapon or you rely on melee combat. Drugs are intoxicating you (can affect vision, sound, etc.), but without them you suffer substantial withdrawal effects (shaking hands - affect aim, gain perk requiring of the addict to buy another dose when withdrawal symptoms kick in, lowers character's charisma, etc.). Items needed for the job are also considered basic as are necessary for making a living by selected role.

Advanced items are wanted, but not needed in order to function. It can be anything. Custom clothes. Advanced weaponry. Augmentations. Everything that exceeds the basic level, something that is not needed, but is obtainable for the buyer nonetheless.

Ad. 3: People get money by various means. This should be tied to classes and their abilities. Cop will get "bonus" for each crime stopped while moving across the Night City. He also might gain money through corruption. Money is money. Job and payment might be tied to multi-player features too, to enhance the means by which the cash is gained.

Ad. 4: People want money. Or service. Or a favor. Most of all they want money to fulfill their own needs and wants.

Ad. 5: People sell whatever they can produce and whatever can be bought.

Ad. 6: If you can produce something and if it's needed or wanted it'll be bought, as long as people have money for it.

With all that in mind, should economy be player-based? No. It is supposed to have a strong focus on singleplayer. The in-game market will most likely be handled by NPCs, but player-made market can exist to compete (and bring profit to classes who can contribute, being on player-market should be an opportunity in comparison to regular market).

Now... What classes can do? Most importantly I ask about the Fixer and the Corporate. I could use some details to come up with sensible role for them within both single- and multi-player economy, although all classes should be able to offer their services and their crafts. I will provide an example:

A Fixer can work in terms of serving as a proxy for crafters on the Black Market of sorts: he buys an item from player for bigger price than it can be sold on the NPC-market and then sells it for higher price than he bought it from the maker of the item. The deal is attractive, because similar item might cost (much) more on NPC-market, although the quality of the item depends on skills of the maker. But how Fixer would operate outside the multi-player aspect? What they do in PnP to obtain goods?
 
Suhiira

Suhiira

Forum veteran
#34
Jun 19, 2014
"Economy" in a single-player game, or even the vast majority of multi-player games has an entirely different meaning then it does in real life.
Very few games deal with basic necessities at all; food, water, shelter. Thus while a huge part of any real economy these factors are nonexistent in a game one.
For the most part a game economy consists of: "How much money does a player have at various points in the game and how does this compare to the goods available for a player to purchase?" This is typically controlled via limiting the resale value or amount of items given as loot. A common complaint is "Why can't I loot everything off things I kill and why to NPC merchants pay a tiny fraction of what they sell the same item for?" Simple, if you got full quantity or value for loot you'd be filthy rich 10 minutes into a game. And when games allow this people complain just as loudly, sometimes amusingly enough the same people.

This is a "no win" situation for developers. Even if the various techno-geeks, artists, writers, etc. are clueless about economics one assumes their marketing department isn't. All they can do is attempt to create an entirely artificial economy that leaves players neither broke or wealthy.
 
Harthwain

Harthwain

Rookie
#35
Jun 19, 2014
suhiir said:
"Economy" in a single-player game, or even the vast majority of multi-player games has an entirely different meaning then it does in real life. Very few games deal with basic necessities at all; food, water, shelter. Thus while a huge part of any real economy these factors are nonexistent in a game one.
Click to expand...
Exactly. That's wrong. If you are able to earn money you also have to spend it at the same time, so you don't create disproportions like player massing large amounts of money he doesn't even need. Make him spend it. Ammo should cost. Drugs should cost. Basic medical aid should cost. Trauma Team should cost. And player should be able to earn too. There should be balance between the two, if player isn't encouraged to use his money it's inevitable that at some point he'll become too rich for his own taste.

Think about the real world - If my job is to be a cop and I am getting paid by securing the peace then I have a source of income that's depending on my results. Let's say that each solved case (not a mission, it's a different concept for an open world) is worth something. Depending on how well you handled the situation you're given certain amount of money. You will spend some of it on needs, but can also save some for your wants or emergency. So you don't earn 100 credits now and keep them. You earn 100 credits you will have to spend on basic items. Unless you do your job and get more.

That's why job of each class should be fun and applying variety through multiplayer is not a bad thing.

Of course, it depends on the concept. I am really interested what ideas CDPR has. I saw concept for TW3, but that wouldn't work for CP77 as we have two classes who are basically business-oriented. Unless they cut our options and the Corporate won't be able to specialize to be stockbroker or turn ability to be a stockbroker into something like a passive ability and the like.
 
Rawls

Rawls

Moderator
#36
Jul 7, 2017
So I was thinking about creating an economy thread and found this one - so I'm gonna necro it.

I agree that a somewhat responsive economy would be a nice add on that ought not be obligatory. I think part of "living on the Edge" implies some level of challenge in making ends meet. I think the economy ought to be based around things that would be really cool to have, but not necessary to play the game. So the starting player gets a car that they "own" and can use to store the essentials in and sleep in (though the car can get damaged and repairs cost money). It's yours and is frankly all you need to complete the game.

However you can rent (for a deposit a price per month) or buy (for a huge up front cost) places to live & better cars. If your renting, you get an email every 30 in game days saying your payment is due. If you can pay it, you lose the car or the change the locks on the apartment. PS you also lost all the stuff you had stored in it. If you buy ... well if your not a corporate you probably won't buy much. If the character progression is skill based rather than level based ... resources and the ability to have nicer stuff becomes one of the major rewards to quests. Complete a job, get paid, get to keep your tiny apartment another month.

I also think stock market ought to be a thing in game that is available in game. You can invest money, and actions you take in the game can affect stock value percentages. Also a stock market skill can increase the value of all stocks for the player.

I think making the game feel like your living on the edge is a huge part of the appeal, and I think real financial consequences are a part of that dystopian future and could really add something to the game.

Now if you don't want the fanciest do-dads, a flying car and a house, you can complete the game being a pauper and living out of your car. Totally cool and can ignore the economy system altogether. Have some gear obtained through the main quests that is good enough but not the best in game so that the economy stuff is optional but definitely in the flavor of the game.
 
Suhiira

Suhiira

Forum veteran
#37
Jul 8, 2017
I like the idea of starting the character off living out of their car.
It "explains" why they start the game poor and (to an extent) how they got to Night City in the first place.
 
C

Calistarius

Senior user
#38
Jul 9, 2017
Suhiira;n9104680 said:
I like the idea of starting the character off living out of their car.
It "explains" why they start the game poor and (to an extent) how they got to Night City in the first place.
Click to expand...
If the game had something like the background story stuff that Tyranny had, then you could maybe through it get the backstory as to why you start out with close to nothing. The downfall of your character befor the game starts essentially.
 
BeastModeIron

BeastModeIron

Senior user
#39
Jul 10, 2017
Calistarius;n9108030 said:
If the game had something like the background story stuff that Tyranny had, then you could maybe through it get the backstory as to why you start out with close to nothing. The downfall of your character befor the game starts essentially.
Click to expand...
Yeah like a custom backstory would determine what you would actually start with in the game possibly. Not everyone would have the same start from nothing.
 
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