Sword stuff. And other tech/martial arts related discussions.
A) the Orbital Crystal blades are 1/2 AP vs hard armours. Steel is not. You can make up your own rules on Tamawhatnot, that's cool, we all do it, but Orbital Crystal is the best Saburo Arasaka could come up with. That says something. By the book, the OC blades are just plain "better than any terrestrial metal". That's a quote from Firestorm, by the way. Like it or lump it, steel blades have been surpassed.
B ) A knife is a knife is a knife. You can have the Knife in the corebook cover whatever short, sharp tool you want it to. But they called it a knife, not a dagger or rondel or stiletto or poignard. For a reason. Knife is modern. Dagger - or poignard/stiletto/whatever - is not.
I'm not arguing the tool, I'm pointing out, repeatedly, that the word "dagger" is a pre-modern/fantasy term not typically a part of Cyberpunk and not found in the CP2020 core book. And with reason.
It's a post-modern Dark Future game. It's edgy and plus-now. The whole idea of Cyberpunk Style is that The Future Is Disposable. Daggers and high-quality fancy-shmancy old-timey weapons, while you may find them cool, are Not Very Cyberpunk.
That's all. It's the term and the idea, not the tool itself. Which, again, is why you're more likely to find a monoblade than a knife, and a knife instead of a dagger.
Well, the katana and wakizashi will go through hard armor. They both treat Hard armor as 1/2 SP, particularly when thrusting. They're also essentially unbreakable, even when parrying with them. You really have to work at breaking them to do any serious damage to them. Traditional Nihonto (Japanese swords) are designed with parrying in mind (using the back of the blade), so they will not break on a parry, Period.
I hear this, but it's the same, if you try to ambush someone, monoblade or katana :
you suceed, YAY,
you fail : you're dead
No matter how hard or soft the blade is, the most important thing is the person handling it, sure a Katana isn't shit, but if you have crappy skills and casual reflexes, it won't help you much in front of a fully trained and augmented solo.
Bashing some street punks / casual gang members with a katana is one thing, you'll probably handle it pretty well (tho, you still can have some bad luck), but I wouldn't try to get in a fight against a full borg or something in the vein with a sword, you won't get throught it's armor with a steel blade (and with any other either I think).
Steel will never be obsolete. A high quality spring steel won't break, nor will a properly differentially hardened Tamahagane steel (what katana and wakizashi are made of). the folded steel, and combination of a harder exterior and softer core combined with differential hardening, makes for a nearly indestructible blade.
Steel can break, it's a fact :/ , maybe not in a video game or comics book, but in real life it happens.
Steel is flexible, can take damage and if you don't maintain it in good shape or use it in a bad way, it can break just like anything else, they're just real hard blade, it's REALLY HARD to break it, but it's not unbreakable, it's a myth.
Even the prenium high priced +100 000$ Katana can break, it's steel, it has a rupture point, it's what they teach you in engineer school.
Tho, the highest price will have an highest breaking point because of prenium material invested in it, but it doesn't mean it's unbreakable nor undestructible, you could be surprised.
You can't cut a tank in half with a katana.
Just make a quick google search and you'll find that it's meant for no-or-light armoured fight, because of it's sharpness, beyond that, against hard armor, it's pretty uneffective, it doesn't mean it's bullshit, but it's not intended to cut throught heavy armors.
Source "Even a blade made in Japan that is made from tamahagane is not indestructible. Below are several photos of a nihonto that exhibit "battle scars".
The Japanese sword was used as a weapon and was never used to hit hard objects like a steel drum, steel pipe, a rock, etc. The samurai did wore armor, but the enemy tried his best to avoid hitting the armor. Because, once his sword gets a nick on the edge, it will be the end of his life as his sword can break anytime during battle. Nowadays, the Japanese sword is mainly used as a training weapon. For cutting practice which uses non-traditional targets such as water filled bottles and beach mats; tatami mats and fresh green bamboo as traditional targets. It is also used for practicing iaido which consists of sword movements from drawing the blade out of the saya, cutting imaginary opponents, then returning it back to its saya. No sword-to-sword contact or hitting other objects.
If you think Japanese swords are indestructible and can cut through a tank, think again"
Source "-Katanas are excellent against flesh and light armored opponents, but very unwiedly if not damn near ineffective against a decently armored opponent.
So, against grunts wearing little to no armor; great weapon and very able to cut swaths of blood in the hands of an expert.
Against grunts wearing well-made mail or better; hehe, good luck. That's what a broadsword is meant for, getting through armor.
- Katana's are most effective at making cuts and most of their techniques were designed around this advantage. If I recall correctly, you won't find many techniques that emphasize thrusting because of the inherent disadvantage of curved blades in this area. This naturally puts a katana at a distinct disadvantage against armour, particularly plate armour, which basically requires strong thrusting attacks to pierce it.
The katana's advantage at making cuts is enhanced by the greater degree of sharpness given to the edge (Can't think of a better way to word this). However this also provides it with another disadvantage, as the sharper edge is easier to dull and does not lend itself to parrying, which will inherently damage the edge (if anyone thinks to bring up edge v flat parrying, I've seen what happens when you try to parry with the flat and, well, let's just say a vibrating blade is very off-putting to the swordsman), hence why the Japanese did not utilize parrying as much as the europeans did. The sacred status the samurai held for their swords also makes it less likely they'll use the blade to block and parry.
Which then brings us to the advantages held by the european blades. Not only does the straight design make it suitable for thrusting, but it lends itself to a double edge, something a curved blade does not (though, as always, there were exceptions). While not as sharp as a katana, the edge of a european blade could still easily cleave flesh and soft materials like leather. Weight distribution is another factor to consider. The centre of gravity for a european blade is further back towards the hilt than a katana, which, by design, is blade heavy, thus making the european blade feel lighter and easier to move about (an exception would be the rapier, given its ludicrous length). Given the function of a sword is to cut using a sharp edge, an overly heavy blade is not necessary.
-Actually, because of its rigidity, a katana is more likely to break than a european blade, which can bend and flex to absorb the force of a blow. The katana simply can not, which means stresses are likely to build up to the point where it may snap."
Etc....
Katana aren't the "war machine" the myth has build around it, it's still an effective and deadly weapon, but you won't go far if you only rely over it.
Mostly in Cyberpunk, technicaly talking, where armor are the central point of "staying alive", you'll sure go througt unarmored or soft armored punks, but once you'll have to deal with hardened armor, borgs or whatever, you'll have an hard time ahead of you, and your katana will eventualy break over the armor (and as explained, they're intended to cut, not thrust or "give blunt strikes").
" Despite modern advances, a sword is still a piece of steel, so improper movements, cuts, and care can definitely result in long-term damage, bending, and shattering of a blade.
Swords aren't designed to be used against other metal swords, they're designed to be used against flesh (for slashing) and light armor (for thrusting, which is one of the weak points of the katana), no matter how amazingly made the Katana, it will suffer severe damage if you swing it against a hard surface a few times. "
In the PnP session I'm currently running, first game out, one of my players was facing off with a Militech grunt armed with a submachine gun, point blank.
The player decided to face off against the grunt, empty hand. The grunt was opting to dump a three round burst into the player.
I ran it as an opposed roll, like hand-to-hand. My player lucked out, and got the better roll. Parried the SMG away, and beat the grunt to death, bare-handed (with only a bit of augmentation; Muscle and Bone Lace.)
That's what I said, he was very lucky (and probably pretty skilled too), if he failed he could have called it a "really bad day" haha, tho guns aren't much safer if you ask me, but at least, you play on an equal ground, hand-to-hand or melee are more random in some situation, I'd be pissed to die because I failed my roll on an intended "melee vs gun" fight.
A) the Orbital Crystal blades are 1/2 AP vs hard armours. Steel is not. You can make up your own rules on Tamawhatnot, that's cool, we all do it, but Orbital Crystal is the best Saburo Arasaka could come up with. That says something. By the book, the OC blades are just plain "better than any terrestrial metal". That's a quote from Firestorm, by the way. Like it or lump it, steel blades have been surpassed.
B ) A knife is a knife is a knife. You can have the Knife in the corebook cover whatever short, sharp tool you want it to. But they called it a knife, not a dagger or rondel or stiletto or poignard. For a reason. Knife is modern. Dagger - or poignard/stiletto/whatever - is not.
I'm not arguing the tool, I'm pointing out, repeatedly, that the word "dagger" is a pre-modern/fantasy term not typically a part of Cyberpunk and not found in the CP2020 core book. And with reason.
It's a post-modern Dark Future game. It's edgy and plus-now. The whole idea of Cyberpunk Style is that The Future Is Disposable. Daggers and high-quality fancy-shmancy old-timey weapons, while you may find them cool, are Not Very Cyberpunk.
That's all. It's the term and the idea, not the tool itself. Which, again, is why you're more likely to find a monoblade than a knife, and a knife instead of a dagger.
And I am telling you, no, "Dagger" is not a "premodern" term or weapon. Daggers are very much alive and well, being produced for military use today. A Dagger is a type of knife primarily designed for stabbing, and typically with a double-edged blade. That's it. The image I linked to earlier is a modern dagger produced by Fairbairn-Sykes. It is a real weapon, that has been in used since WWII by the SAS, British Commandos, and airborne units, among others, and is still in service today. It is a dagger. So, no Daggers are not obsolete fantasy weapons. They are very real and in use even today as specialized combat weapons. They are knives specifically designed for fighting, they're not going out of fashion any time soon. Not only that, but they're far less expensive (and therefore much more "disposable") than a mono-blade that costs five times as much. Therefore, if you buy a "knife" out of the Core rules, the type of knife can be pretty much whatever you need it to be, and this includes daggers. In fact, if you're specifically looking for a fighting knife, it almost certainly be a dagger, unless you're in Japan, in which case it will be a Tanto. Both are knives. and, in game terms, have the exact same stats.
Secondly, the Arasaka Daisho are metal blades. They are steel. The specific steel is forged in orbit, but it is still metal, not ceramic, not "glass". Metal is what provides the flexibility to make the weapon unbreakable. Ceramics and "glass are rigid, and therefore brittle. This is why Mono-crystal is so fragile. The Arasaka blades are not mono-crystal, and do not get the added damage that Mono-crystal does. The only "difference" between the Arasaka blades and a terrestrial blade, is in terms of how the molecules align, which is "supposed' to make it stronger than your ordinary steel. Guess what. Properly forged, folded, and differentially hardened Tamahagane blade has the same effect. You can't break them,and this is because of how the blade is forged. Th steel is folded over a dozen times, then they combine a hard steel jacket with a softer, more flexible steel core. Then they differentially harden the blade, so that the edge is extremely hard, and thus remains razor sharp, while the rest of the blade remains tough and flexible, thus, they won't break. Secondly, they punch through plate armor with relative ease. That has nothing to do with the composition of the material, but purely a matter of the shape of the tips. The tips of a Katana and Wakizashi are specifically wedge shaped to pierce armor. This is also true of traditional Nihonto Katana and Wakizashi. Thus, in game terms, they're identical to the Arasaka blades.
I hear this, but it's the same, if you try to ambush someone, monoblade or katana :
you suceed, YAY,
you fail : you're dead
No matter how hard or soft the blade is, the most important thing is the person handling it, sure a Katana isn't shit, but if you have crappy skills and casual reflexes, it won't help you much in front of a fully trained and augmented solo.
Bashing some street punks / casual gang members with a katana is one thing, you'll probably handle it pretty well (tho, you still can have some bad luck), but I wouldn't try to get in a fight against a full borg or something in the vein with a sword, you won't get throught it's armor with a steel blade (and with any other either I think).
Steel can break, it's a fact :/ , maybe not in a video game or comics book, but in real life it happens.
Steel is flexible, can take damage and if you don't maintain it in good shape or use it in a bad way, it can break just like anything else, they're just real hard blade, it's REALLY HARD to break it, but it's not unbreakable, it's a myth.
Even the prenium high priced +100 000$ Katana can break, it's steel, it has a rupture point, it's what they teach you in engineer school.
Tho, the highest price will have an highest breaking point because of prenium material invested in it, but it doesn't mean it's unbreakable nor undestructible, you could be surprised.
You can't cut a tank in half with a katana.
Just make a quick google search and you'll find that it's meant for no-or-light armoured fight, because of it's sharpness, beyond that, against hard armor, it's pretty uneffective, it doesn't mean it's bullshit, but it's not intended to cut throught heavy armors.
Source "The Japanese sword was used as a weapon and was never used to hit hard objects like a steel drum, steel pipe, a rock, etc. The samurai did wore armor, but the enemy tried his best to avoid hitting the armor. Because, once his sword gets a nick on the edge, it will be the end of his life as his sword can break anytime during battle. Nowadays, the Japanese sword is mainly used as a training weapon. For cutting practice which uses non-traditional targets such as water filled bottles and beach mats; tatami mats and fresh green bamboo as traditional targets. It is also used for practicing iaido which consists of sword movements from drawing the blade out of the saya, cutting imaginary opponents, then returning it back to its saya. No sword-to-sword contact or hitting other objects.
If you think Japanese swords are indestructible and can cut through a tank, think again"
Source "-Katanas are excellent against flesh and light armored opponents, but very unwiedly if not damn near ineffective against a decently armored opponent.
So, against grunts wearing little to no armor; great weapon and very able to cut swaths of blood in the hands of an expert.
Against grunts wearing well-made mail or better; hehe, good luck. That's what a broadsword is meant for, getting through armor.
- Katana's are most effective at making cuts and most of their techniques were designed around this advantage. If I recall correctly, you won't find many techniques that emphasize thrusting because of the inherent disadvantage of curved blades in this area. This naturally puts a katana at a distinct disadvantage against armour, particularly plate armour, which basically requires strong thrusting attacks to pierce it.
The katana's advantage at making cuts is enhanced by the greater degree of sharpness given to the edge (Can't think of a better way to word this). However this also provides it with another disadvantage, as the sharper edge is easier to dull and does not lend itself to parrying, which will inherently damage the edge (if anyone thinks to bring up edge v flat parrying, I've seen what happens when you try to parry with the flat and, well, let's just say a vibrating blade is very off-putting to the swordsman), hence why the Japanese did not utilize parrying as much as the europeans did. The sacred status the samurai held for their swords also makes it less likely they'll use the blade to block and parry.
Which then brings us to the advantages held by the european blades. Not only does the straight design make it suitable for thrusting, but it lends itself to a double edge, something a curved blade does not (though, as always, there were exceptions). While not as sharp as a katana, the edge of a european blade could still easily cleave flesh and soft materials like leather. Weight distribution is another factor to consider. The centre of gravity for a european blade is further back towards the hilt than a katana, which, by design, is blade heavy, thus making the european blade feel lighter and easier to move about (an exception would be the rapier, given its ludicrous length). Given the function of a sword is to cut using a sharp edge, an overly heavy blade is not necessary.
-Actually, because of its rigidity, a katana is more likely to break than a european blade, which can bend and flex to absorb the force of a blow. The katana simply can not, which means stresses are likely to build up to the point where it may snap."
Etc....
Katana aren't the "war machine" the myth has build around it, it's still an effective and deadly weapon, but you won't go far if you only rely over it.
Mostly in Cyberpunk, technicaly talking, where armor are the central point of "staying alive", you'll sure go througt unarmored or soft armored punks, but once you'll have to deal with hardened armor, borgs or whatever, you'll have an hard time ahead of you, and your katana will eventualy break over the armor (and as explained, they're intended to cut, not thrust or "give blunt strikes").
" Despite modern advances, a sword is still a piece of steel, so improper movements, cuts, and care can definitely result in long-term damage, bending, and shattering of a blade.
Swords aren't designed to be used against other metal swords, they're designed to be used against flesh (for slashing) and light armor (for thrusting, which is one of the weak points of the katana), no matter how amazingly made the Katana, it will suffer severe damage if you swing it against a hard surface a few times. "
That was my 2cents on the subject.
That's what I said, he was very lucky (and probably pretty skilled too), if he failed he could have called it a "really bad day" haha, tho guns aren't much safer if you ask me, but at least, you play on an equal ground, hand-to-hand or melee are more random in some situation, I'd be pissed to die because I failed my roll on an intended "melee vs gun" fight.
I've seen a katana pierce plate armor that a European sword could not. It also bit into the armor deeper than the European sword did, while using a cutting strike. It didn't cut the armor, but did leave a very deep and damaging crevasse in it, something the broadsword could not do. So, yes, a Katana can indeed pierce plate armor. This is because of the wedge shape of the blade. This, is also what allows the Arasaka blades to get their Hard SP/2 bonus, which, according to the description of the weapons, is only supposed to apply to thrusting . It's the wedge shape of the tip, not the metallurgy that grants these blades that bonus vs hard armor.
Now, are traditionally made Japanese swords completely "indestructible"? No. But, then again, neither is the "Arasaka" blades from Shockwave. It is just very hard to do so. All that book says about them is that they won't break on a fumble. You have to work to break them. This is also true of a real tamahagane Nihonto. It is very hard to break a real traditionally made katana. Not only that, but Katana are indeed designed with parrying in mind—specifically parrying with the spine of the blade, not the edge, which I agree could damage the edge. Therefore, you won't break a blade by parrying with a katana or wakizashi because the softer core steel absorbs the shock. This is the benefit that the use of two different types of steel has over using "mono-steel" construction. Therefore, like the Arasaka blades, no shattering on a parry. The thickness of the blade also makes it stronger than most European blades of similar length, which tend to have a thinner cross section. The differential hardening also makes for a stronger and sharper blade than European blades which have to sacrifice one or the other because, as a rule, they're uniformly hardened.
Woah. Wall of Text. You don't have to quote the entire post every time, Tramp. Takes awhile to scroll down, you do that. Hell on a Mobile device, too.
Let's move on past the "dagger is a modern weapon" thing. You think it is, I'd be really surprised to see anything described as a "dagger" in 2077. There isn't anything described as a dagger in 2020, after all. You disagree, I get that.
Shockwave has the Orbital blades as "grown" - they aren't mere steel. They are more armour piercing than even regular monoweapons are. They do less damage, sure, but are more accurate. Given how varied the damages/WA/RoF are in the books, ( See Sternmeyer M-95/CG-13/M95A or the variations between the Militech Anitmatter Rifle versions for examples) that less damage than a monokatana could be designer whimsy. Certainly not enough to rank them as some kind of "steel plus". Very durable Orbital Crystal.
You certainly don't know enough about the process used on the fictional Arasaka Daisho to declare that your Tamawhasit blades are the same as the Arasaka Daisho. No Ref in his right mind would buy that argument either. Why would Arasaka bother to commission space-blades, then? And players insisting their favourite weapon can do things that the game doesn't make allowances for is as old as gaming. It generally gets a no, and for a good reason: how would the Ref be able to check?
The Arasaka Daisho have the 1/2 SP against Hard Armour - but unless you have one of those or something created the same way, you don't get the same values. The wedge shape is combined with the crystal that they are grown out of, that let's them penetrate hard armours so well. Better than an AP round, since they get to keep full damage afterwards.
Hell, their is an argument that the Arasaka blades should be mono normally, except no break on a fumble or parry, and 1/2 SP on a thrust.
As for mono blades being weaker and non-flexible, that's a game/tech limitation.
Woah. Wall of Text. You don't have to quote the entire post every time, Tramp. Takes awhile to scroll down, you do that. Hell on a Mobile device, too.
Let's move on past the "dagger is a modern weapon" thing. You think it is, I'd be really surprised to see anything described as a "dagger" in 2077. There isn't anything described as a dagger in 2020, after all. You disagree, I get that.
Shockwave has the Orbital blades as "grown" - they aren't mere steel. They are more armour piercing than even regular monoweapons are. They do less damage, sure, but are more accurate. Given how varied the damages/WA/RoF are in the books, ( See Sternmeyer M-95/CG-13/M95A or the variations between the Militech Anitmatter Rifle versions for examples) that less damage than a monokatana could be designer whimsy. Certainly not enough to rank them as some kind of "steel plus". Very durable Orbital Crystal.
You certainly don't know enough about the process used on the fictional Arasaka Daisho to declare that your Tamawhasit blades are the same as the Arasaka Daisho. No Ref in his right mind would buy that argument either. Why would Arasaka bother to commission space-blades, then? And players insisting their favourite weapon can do things that the game doesn't make allowances for is as old as gaming. It generally gets a no, and for a good reason: how would the Ref be able to check?
The Arasaka Daisho have the 1/2 SP against Hard Armour - but unless you have one of those or something created the same way, you don't get the same values. The wedge shape is combined with the crystal that they are grown out of, that let's them penetrate hard armours so well. Better than an AP round, since they get to keep full damage afterwards.
Hell, their is an argument that the Arasaka blades should be mono normally, except no break on a fumble or parry, and 1/2 SP on a thrust.
As for mono blades being weaker and non-flexible, that's a game/tech limitation.
Shockwave does not say that the Arasaka blades are made of "orbital crystal", such as that used in the Mono-two set. All it says is that they're "grown" in orbit, so that the crystalline matrixes of the blades align to make the blades stronger than "terrestrial" metal, It does not say that they're not metal, it just says that they're stronger than normal terrestrial metals. Secondly, the Arasaka blades are only 1/2 SP to hard armor when thrusting, and this is because of the wedge shape of the tip, not the material of the blade. Therefore, yes, a traditional katana is just as effective. The idea behind the Arasaka blades is that they're better than normal mono-steel, (like Spring steel or stainless steel)such as used on a cheap $100-$200 sword, not a mastercraft Koto or Shinto Nihonto blade made using traditional Japanese methods. Guess what, If you look at the crystaline structure of a traditionally forged Nihonto sword, you'll see a crystalline structure that makes it far stronger and sharper than any other type of steel because of they way it is forged. So, basically, the Arasaka blades are using weightlessness to create the same quality that traditional Japanese swordsmiths have been achieving for centuries, and this is probably because in the Cyberpunk universe, there probably aren;t any swordsmiths left who know how to make a true traditionally made Nihonto. Even today, there are only about 30 or so Swordsmiths in Japan who know how to make true traditionally made Tamahagane Nihonto blades.
As for that video, yes, the blade of that katana is bent, but it is not broken. The blade did not shatter. And that speaks to the quality of the construction. A European sword of the same dimensions that wasn't differentially hardened would likely have shattered. When they later uses a much larger long sword for the same test, the longsword managed to shatter the other blade because it was much heavier with a more blunt edge. It didn''t cut the other blade, it sundered it. IF you watch this video, you'll see just how much more effective the traditional katana can be against multiple types of armor, and even a block of ice vs a European long sword.
and, in this video, look at how much more effort and brute strength the guy using the European broad sword needs to cut through the tatame mat bundle compared to the guy wielding the Katana.
and in this video, the guy cuts through both a steel pipe and a .4 mm sheet of steel using a katana with no damage to the blade.
As for that "flexible glass" in the video. You wouldn't be able to use that type of glass for a blade because it won't keep an edge. There is still that trade-off between the hardness necessary to keep an edge and the flexibility needed to prevent shattering. The ancient Japanese swordsmiths solved that through the use of two different types of steel (both repeatedly folded to even out the carbon content and remove impurities) for the core and skin of their blades, combined with differential hardening to create a very strong and flexible blade with a very hard edge that keeps an edge. Mono-blades, on the other hand, are made with a very hard, and thus brittle ceramic glass, such as that used to make ceramic kitchen knives today. As such, they're very sharp, but fragile. That's not a "game effect", it's basic physics.
Tramp, you are arbitrarily deciding what tech can and can't do, based on what it does now and your imperfect knowlegde of the science. A few years ago, flexible glass as a product just wasn't a thing. Five years ago, you probably would have explained why physics prevents it from becoming a thing.
We don't know the process used to create a monowhip or a monoknife. We don't. It's far from impossible that tech by 2077 or in the Cpunk alternate world, 2020, will have made flexible, tough mono-edged weapons, (other than a monowhip), completely viable.
I think you've decided, ahead of time, that the Arasaka blades aren't crystal tech and that they are steel, and you're trying to fit that into your Cyberpunk worldview that steel is still the best for edged weapons. You've also made a chunk of assumptions about how monoweapons in 2020 are built and why they have to be built a certain way. For all we know, the monoweapons for sale are the same as the cheap katanas you say make up the ones available in 2020 - they are cheaply mass manufactured. Higher quality ones remove the monodefects and even improve damage. Mono-2 no longer breaks on a fumble and only shatters on a parry with 2 or worse. And that's just a year of improvement. Imagine by 2030 how advanced the Mono-4 will be.
The Arasaka blades are designed to penetrate hard armours - other katana in the game are not, even though they have the same wedge-shape to the blade. Your assumption that Saburo Arasaka had to go to orbit to get a blade as good as one you could find today in 2015 is an assumption - and not one with any data behind it from the books. The ones in orbit are grown and they are better than anything terrestrial. That's said clearly. It never says they are metal or steel or suggests in any way you can replicate them on earth.
Weapons I want to see in Cyberpunk 2077 are not, for the most part, weapons I can see today - what would be the point? The idea is that tech has made killing people easier and slicker, while not really improving life a whole lot in other ways. That's a Cyberpunk staple.
Having a steel sword, made of crappy metal, that works as well as one made in 1745 - that's just not very Cyberpunk. It's not.
So, basically, the Arasaka blades are using weightlessness to create the same quality that traditional Japanese swordsmiths have been achieving for centuries, and this is probably because in the Cyberpunk universe, there probably aren;t any swordsmiths left who know how to make a true traditionally made Nihonto. Even today, there are only about 30 or so Swordsmiths in Japan who know how to make true traditionally made Tamahagane Nihonto blades.
Yes, because it's cheaper, and by so, can be easily mass-produced.
You can say whatever you want over your beloved Katana, you'll never be able to pay yourself a true one, unless you're interested in those crappy "battle ready" non-sense to hang on your wall, and I don't see how you'd have one either in California in 2020 or 2077, yes there are probably still swordsmiths around in Cyberpunk, but if they produce high quality sword, it's at an over expensive price and probably reserved to the high-end corporate to decorate their office, it's the 21° century buddy, why bother spending a full body convertion price over a metal sword when you can turn yourself in a freaking killing machine for the same price (with a rocket launcher and flame thrower integrated in your own body)?
Oh and well:
Katana were made to slice, nothing more, they do have a perfect razor edge, but doesn't have engought weight to "blunt" like an european sword (which didn't goes through mail either), it's just a fancy machete, nothing more.
Sure, you'll probably cut throught any metal place (granted it's not too thick, anyway they're supposed to be light if people have to wear them),but remember that they don't walk around naked under their armor, there is a mail underneath, and a katana (or any kind of sword) can hardly get through it, it's the point.
Katana was a "last resort" weapon, in pure kamikaze mindset "kill or get killed fighting", you could have gave them a swissknife it would have been the same.
You can turn it in any way you want, Katana as sharpened and deadly as they are have been overpowered since a long time.
I'm not even talking about trying to slash an high tech liquid body armor with it.... It would probably slightly slash the armor, but the "blunt" would be absorbed (it even eat Axe smash without much pain), it's plain fact, a katana in cyberpunk is as much usefull than a machete or a knife, it has it's limits, the games rules are what they are, but reality says something else.
You may want to have your cliché "anime-badass-type-character", it's up to you, but a katana won't do shit against a well armored foe, it wasn't made to be used like this, it's just a "war fact", japanese armors were pretty crappy, made to avoid being killed by arrow (primary weapon) or spear, not "sword" (and that's why the katana were so much usefull to get through it), now if they would have faced a real european armor, they would have be fucked up, because it don't have enought blow to stun the oponent throught it's armor (what an heavy sword is up to), and wouldn't have sliced throught it, the only way would have be to slice throught the armor to touch an unprotected area, now the katana would have showed it's deadly power, but otherwise they weren't made to slice thought metal, steel blades are made to fight flesh, not steel.
They're like scalpel, made to cut, not dig holes.
Katana demonstrations are always against tree, cumcumber, water bottle, etc...
Never against a car, a brick, an modern helmet (military one), etc...
There is a reason for it, it can't do much, sure it'll chew in it, but not much as a machete or an axe, you'll eventually get throught it if you hack & slash it enought, but in a real fight your oponent will not stand still like a mannequin.
Look, the helmet didn't even get cut, it just blunted over it (and I agree it should hurt pretty bad), but it's a medieval one, so I figure a modern armor would pretty much eat the shock and let your oponent the time to react (enought time for you to die).
People doing modern armor aren't stupid, I figure they already thought about stopping a katana's blow.
Anyway, all of this in a steril debate.
Yes a katana is a really hard sword, but it needs years of practice and only a few people can call themselves "a true ninja", handling a Katana doesn't mean you'll be the finest swordman around the same as having the bigger gun in the room doesn't mean you'll be the best shooter ever, a skilled fighter can be deadlier with a spoon than a scrubs with a perfect katana, it's even the same in fighting game, a talented player with a crappy character can kick the ass of any noob using an overpowered character, skills > weapon, it's how it goes.
Still, in the 21° century, in a cyberpunk setting, you're pretty much fucked up if you think you'll be able to slice throught a crowd of oponent with a sword, it may eat a few bullets, but you won't.
You'll be able to find a katana in Cyberpunk 2077, no reason that it doesn't exist anymore, but it will not be "prenium steel", because it's too much expensive to produce, so it'll eventually break, it'll work against lightly armored oponent at best, but if you plan on fighting against a modern hard armor, a cyborg or something, either you get a big gun, or try to get a hand on a mono-crystal-something blade, it's just how it works in cyberpunk. Steel has it's limits and tech goes beyond that.
You'll find steel blade everywhere, even in 2300, because it's easy to mass produce, and cheaper to make (yay capitalism, the less you spend the more you win), but it's not the "best weapon" around anymore.
Tramp, you are arbitrarily deciding what tech can and can't do, based on what it does now and your imperfect knowlegde of the science. A few years ago, flexible glass as a product just wasn't a thing. Five years ago, you probably would have explained why physics prevents it from becoming a thing.
We don't know the process used to create a monowhip or a monoknife. We don't. It's far from impossible that tech by 2077 or in the Cpunk alternate world, 2020, will have made flexible, tough mono-edged weapons, (other than a monowhip), completely viable.
I think you've decided, ahead of time, that the Arasaka blades aren't crystal tech and that they are steel, and you're trying to fit that into your Cyberpunk worldview that steel is still the best for edged weapons. You've also made a chunk of assumptions about how monoweapons in 2020 are built and why they have to be built a certain way. For all we know, the monoweapons for sale are the same as the cheap katanas you say make up the ones available in 2020 - they are cheaply mass manufactured. Higher quality ones remove the monodefects and even improve damage. Mono-2 no longer breaks on a fumble and only shatters on a parry with 2 or worse. And that's just a year of improvement. Imagine by 2030 how advanced the Mono-4 will be.
The Arasaka blades are designed to penetrate hard armours - other katana in the game are not, even though they have the same wedge-shape to the blade. Your assumption that Saburo Arasaka had to go to orbit to get a blade as good as one you could find today in 2015 is an assumption - and not one with any data behind it from the books. The ones in orbit are grown and they are better than anything terrestrial. That's said clearly. It never says they are metal or steel or suggests in any way you can replicate them on earth.
Weapons I want to see in Cyberpunk 2077 are not, for the most part, weapons I can see today - what would be the point? The idea is that tech has made killing people easier and slicker, while not really improving life a whole lot in other ways. That's a Cyberpunk staple.
Having a steel sword, made of crappy metal, that works as well as one made in 1745 - that's just not very Cyberpunk. It's not.
Before reading Shockwave I had no preconceptions of the Arasaka blades other than what I found in the Datafortress Illustrated Weapons Guide, which had the wrong stats to begin with. No, the reason behind my assertions that these are "space aged" metal is in the wording, and in the statistics of the weapon. As for it being 1/2 SP vs Hard armor, which most other blades don't. That's because the "swords" listed in the core rules are based upon European broad swords and machetes. They're not katana. The swords in the core book are cheap mono steel, that only costs about $100. So, no, I don't expect them to pierce armor the way a properly forged katana will. And, once again, that 1/2 SO to hard armor is piercing only according to the text, and that's because of the wedge shape of the tip, not the materials. A traditional katana has that same armor piercing wedge shape. Secondly, As for Arasaka blades being able to penetrate armor and "other katana can't", How do you know? Other than mono-blades, there are no other official stats for katana or wakizashi. You have either monokatana or the Arasaka katana. That's it as far as stats go. And guess what, the "AP" effects that the Arasaka blades get is marked the same as a steel blade with an Asterisk •, not the # sign denoting Mono-crystal. They are not mono-blades, and based upon the Pacific Rim Sourcebook[/b], a blade is either Mono-blade or it's metal. That's it. The Mono-Two are "improved" Mono-blades, but still monoblades, and still more fragile than steel. A typical steel blade has half the likelihood of shattering that the Mono-Two blades will. That means that Steel is still stronger than "orbital crystal". And that's just a regular sword, not a mastercraft Nihonto made using traditional methods.
Simply put, Just because it is "high-tech" does not necessarily make it inherently better. Sometimes "old-tech" still wins out. That's why even in the core rules, the gam has a mix of both old and new. That is what I want to see continue, and that is what we're likely to see in 2077 as well. Steel is not, and never will be obsolete.
Yes, because it's cheaper, and by so, can be easily mass-produced.
You can say whatever you want over your beloved Katana, you'll never be able to pay yourself a true one, unless you're interested in those crappy "battle ready" non-sense to hang on your wall, and I don't see how you'd have one either in California in 2020 or 2077, yes there are probably still swordsmiths around in Cyberpunk, but if they produce high quality sword, it's at an over expensive price and probably reserved to the high-end corporate to decorate their office, it's the 21° century buddy, why bother spending a full body convertion price over a metal sword when you can turn yourself in a freaking killing machine for the same price (with a rocket launcher and flame thrower integrated in your own body)?
I never said I would. And I am talking about a very expensive weapon, not a cheap knock-off. I'm talking the traditionally made Tamahagane blades that can cost upwards of tens of thousands of dollars. And, the one character I have who does have a traditional katana (in fact a full daisho), his are familiy heirlooms passed down for over 500 years. But, yes, if I were to want to buy a katana in the game, I would expect to pay thousands or tens of thousands of dollars (or EB) for it. So, no, I'm not talking those cheap mass-produced Gunto or knock-offs. I'm talking the real thing produced using traditional methods.
Oh and well:
Katana were made to slice, nothing more, they do have a perfect razor edge, but doesn't have engought weight to "blunt" like an european sword (which didn't goes through mail either), it's just a fancy machete, nothing more.
Sure, you'll probably cut throught any metal place (granted it's not too thick, anyway they're supposed to be light if people have to wear them),but remember that they don't walk around naked under their armor, there is a mail underneath, and a katana (or any kind of sword) can hardly get through it, it's the point.
I have to disagree with you on the katana not being "heavy" enough to "blunt" like a European sword. One of the videos I linked to earlier showed superior "blunting" power, biting into plate armor that the European sword couldn't even dent. Not only that, but both of your katana vs chainmail videos are against mail shirts that are simply hanging in the air, not worn on a mannequin. And, it is slashing the mail not trying to pierce it.
Katana was a "last resort" weapon, in pure kamikaze mindset "kill or get killed fighting", you could have gave them a swissknife it would have been the same.
If you gave a Samurai a swiss knife, they'd likely turn it down because they considered European blades to be of inferior construction.
You can turn it in any way you want, Katana as sharpened and deadly as they are have been overpowered since a long time.
I'm not even talking about trying to slash an high tech liquid body armor with it.... It would probably slightly slash the armor, but the "blunt" would be absorbed (it even eat Axe smash without much pain), it's plain fact, a katana in cyberpunk is as much usefull than a machete or a knife, it has it's limits, the games rules are what they are, but reality says something else.
You may want to have your cliché "anime-badass-type-character", it's up to you, but a katana won't do shit against a well armored foe, it wasn't made to be used like this, it's just a "war fact", japanese armors were pretty crappy, made to avoid being killed by arrow (primary weapon) or spear, not "sword" (and that's why the katana were so much usefull to get through it), now if they would have faced a real european armor, they would have be fucked up, because it don't have enought blow to stun the oponent throught it's armor (what an heavy sword is up to), and wouldn't have sliced throught it, the only way would have be to slice throught the armor to touch an unprotected area, now the katana would have showed it's deadly power, but otherwise they weren't made to slice thought metal, steel blades are made to fight flesh, not steel.
They're like scalpel, made to cut, not dig holes.
Katana demonstrations are always against tree, cumcumber, water bottle, etc...
Never against a car, a brick, an modern helmet (military one), etc...
There is a reason for it, it can't do much, sure it'll chew in it, but not much as a machete or an axe, you'll eventually get throught it if you hack & slash it enought, but in a real fight your oponent will not stand still like a mannequin.
Look, the helmet didn't even get cut, it just blunted over it (and I agree it should hurt pretty bad), but it's a medieval one, so I figure a modern armor would pretty much eat the shock and let your oponent the time to react (enought time for you to die).
People doing modern armor aren't stupid, I figure they already thought about stopping a katana's blow.
The demonstrations I linked to were against plate metal armor, pipes, a block of ice, and sheet metal, not trees, cucumbers, or water-bottles. Guess what,m it cleaved through the block of ice with ease, tore through leather armor with ease, bit deeply into the plate armor, and then punched over a half an inch into the plate armor with a thrust attack, cut through a 1" diameter pipe and sliced a .4mm thick sheet of steel in half. And, yes, in your video of the katana vs the machine gun, the machine gun did eventually break the katana, but it took seven rounds to do so, and even then it cut every one of those bullets in two. Not only that, but you're talking a .50 caliber machine gun ammunition. Those are designed to pierce tank armor and engine blocks., so, yes, I would expect them to eventually break the sword.
Anyway, all of this in a steril debate.
Yes a katana is a really hard sword, but it needs years of practice and only a few people can call themselves "a true ninja", handling a Katana doesn't mean you'll be the finest swordman around the same as having the bigger gun in the room doesn't mean you'll be the best shooter ever, a skilled fighter can be deadlier with a spoon than a scrubs with a perfect katana, it's even the same in fighting game, a talented player with a crappy character can kick the ass of any noob using an overpowered character, skills > weapon, it's how it goes.
Still, in the 21° century, in a cyberpunk setting, you're pretty much fucked up if you think you'll be able to slice throught a crowd of oponent with a sword, it may eat a few bullets, but you won't.
You'll be able to find a katana in Cyberpunk 2077, no reason that it doesn't exist anymore, but it will not be "prenium steel", because it's too much expensive to produce, so it'll eventually break, it'll work against lightly armored oponent at best, but if you plan on fighting against a modern hard armor, a cyborg or something, either you get a big gun, or try to get a hand on a mono-crystal-something blade, it's just how it works in cyberpunk. Steel has it's limits and tech goes beyond that.
You'll find steel blade everywhere, even in 2300, because it's easy to mass produce, and cheaper to make (yay capitalism, the less you spend the more you win), but it's not the "best weapon" around anymore.
You'll still be able to find "premium" Katana as well, but expect to pay premium prices for them if you want to buy them. I wouldn't expect a "cheap knock-off" to have the same stats as the real thing, and the characters I'd expect to be using one would be someone who is properly well trained in its use. That's why I equate the Arasaka blades stats to those of a real traditionally made blade, not a mass-produced knock-off.
Okay, now I'm curious - where are you reading the stats on the Arasaka Daisho that it calls them metal or space aged metal or in the stats? I just checked the book three times and none of that is in there.
I think steel is outmoded in CPunk, really. That extra damage and pen on a monoweapon is just too good, especially facing armoured opponents. If you're using a steel survival knife, you do 1d6. 3 damage on an average roll. You hit a guy with Skinweave or an SP 12 jacket/shirt on, that means nothing gets through.
You hit that same guy with a Mono-2 which does 2d6 and the armour is worth 4 points. Now, 3 damage gets through, per hit.
Much better. Don't parry with it, but then again, why would you be sword fighting? Dodge is a better idea, or a hard-armour encased forearm acting as a buckler.
Or use an IMI chainknife. 2d6+1 damage, 8 average, Armour is 1/2 and goes down 2 SP per hit!
Then there is the Spawnblade, made of memory metal. Once you stick them, and before BTM reduces damage, the blade pops and they eat another 1d6+3 damage, ignoring armour!
Cyberpunk isn't really a mix of old and new. It's mostly new. The section on Old Guns Never Die is part of a page in the corebook, compared to the pages and pages of other weapons.
That's the whole idea of a disposable future, after all.
Okay, now I'm curious - where are you reading the stats on the Arasaka Daisho that it calls them metal or space aged metal or in the stats? I just checked the book three times and none of that is in there.
I think steel is outmoded in CPunk, really. That extra damage and pen on a monoweapon is just too good, especially facing armoured opponents. If you're using a steel survival knife, you do 1d6. 3 damage on an average roll. You hit a guy with Skinweave or an SP 12 jacket/shirt on, that means nothing gets through.
You hit that same guy with a Mono-2 which does 2d6 and the armour is worth 4 points. Now, 3 damage gets through, per hit.
Much better. Don't parry with it, but then again, why would you be sword fighting? Dodge is a better idea, or a hard-armour encased forearm acting as a buckler.
Or use an IMI chainknife. 2d6+1 damage, 8 average, Armour is 1/2 and goes down 2 SP per hit!
Then there is the Spawnblade, made of memory metal. Once you stick them, and before BTM reduces damage, the blade pops and they eat another 1d6+3 damage, ignoring armour!
Cyberpunk isn't really a mix of old and new. It's mostly new. The section on Old Guns Never Die is part of a page in the corebook, compared to the pages and pages of other weapons.
That's the whole idea of a disposable future, after all.
An expensive Monoblade is hardly what I would call "disposable". The same with a Spawn blade or Chain knife. The Spawn blade is 450 EB, not exactly what I'd call "cheap and disposable". The Monokatana is 600 EB, Even a simple Mono-knife is 200 EB. By contrast, a steel knife is only 1-20 EB, a basic steel sword is only 20-200 EB. Which is more "disposable"? Certainly not the Monoblades. They're the most expensive types of blades there are, and fragile as can be. If you want "disposable", go with a cheap steel blade. They're a lot less expensive and much more durable.
If you hit with a steel blade you get 1/2 SP to soft armors standard. This is for all non-mono (read Steel) blades . Therefore, your SP 12 Jacket is only worth SP6, Add in your strength bonus, and the damage from the knife does get through.
And, guess what, even your vaunted "Spawn blade" is made of metal. Specifically it's made up of "memory metal". The chain knife, too, is a metal weapon, not a mono-weapon. Thus, steel and other metals are certainly not obsolete.
As for the Arasaka blades, they don't state exactly what "material" they're made of. It simply states that the manufacturing process creates a crystalline matrix in the material that is stronger than your typical terrestrial metal. Most importantly, however, is the stats are specifically that of a non-monomolecular bladed weapon. That denotes a metal blade. What makes it "space age" metal is the fact that whatever the specific elements the alloy is made up of, it is being produced in orbit using very high-tech manufacturing processes. Note the bolded word there. That specific identifier clarifies that the blades aren't stronger than "any metal", but against most terrestrial metals that you'd normally find used in manufacturing. Thus, it is an "apples to apples" comparison, not an "apples to oranges" comparison. Therefore, we are talking about some form of metal alloy, not a ceramic, not glass. If it were, then it would specifically say so. Secondly, their stats are that of a steel blade, not a mono-blade. A Mono-katana does 4D6 damage, 1/3 SP soft armor and 2/3 SP Hard armor. The Arasaka blade does 3D6 1/2 SP Soft armor, just like any steel bladed weapon, and the tip is 1/2 SP hard armor when thrusting because of its wedge shape. The statistics are that if a metal blade, not a mono-blade. its extra durability comes from it essentially being a "master-crafted" weapon. There is also the fact that the weapons are simply referred to as field swords, not mono-swords or any other esoteric material.
Errr...the Future Is Disposable doesn't literally mean, "throw away everyting you have and buy cheap" or 2020 would be slingshots and clubs.
The Future Is Disposable refers to the Cyberpunk ethos of charging forward, ignoring the past, trading what works for what is new, at any cost.
Cyberware that destroys your humanity.
Fashion trends that destroy your budget and last for a week.
Drugs that eat your mind.
Monoweapons that break.
Live Fast, Die Young, etc.
That's why the game is Dark Future. Although a well-made carbon steel blade is nearly as good as a monoweapon or orbital crystal weapon and either much cheaper or much more reliable or both, it is also outmoded and from yesterday. Thus, Not Cool Anymore.
Nothing wrong with a .45 1911A1, but in 2020, you'll see Solo's using something from Sternmeyer Militech or the NEW Colt Alpha-Omega!
Of course, there is still Retro Fashion, but that's a whole thing and a deliberate choice to use outmoded and less potent gear in favour of "cool".
Errr...the Future Is Disposable doesn't literally mean, "throw away everyting you have and buy cheap" or 2020 would be slingshots and clubs.
The Future Is Disposable refers to the Cyberpunk ethos of charging forward, ignoring the past, trading what works for what is new, at any cost.
Cyberware that destroys your humanity.
Fashion trends that destroy your budget and last for a week.
Drugs that eat your mind.
Monoweapons that break.
Live Fast, Die Young, etc.
That's why the game is Dark Future. Although a well-made carbon steel blade is nearly as good as a monoweapon or orbital crystal weapon and either much cheaper or much more reliable or both, it is also outmoded and from yesterday. Thus, Not Cool Anymore.
Nothing wrong with a .45 1911A1, but in 2020, you'll see Solo's using something from Sternmeyer Militech or the NEW Colt Alpha-Omega!
Of course, there is still Retro Fashion, but that's a whole thing and a deliberate choice to use outmoded and less potent gear in favour of "cool".
See, that is where we disagree. There are still things that are timeless. Leather is one of them. Steel is another. So no, it's not trade "everything" that works for what's "new"; not by a long shot. And I'll tell you flat out, any professional soldier, or "Solo" of any worth will take a reliable weapon over a fragile one any day. And regardless of what it's made of, a sword is just "cool", unless it's a cheap "rat-tail" tanged wall hanger.
Sword stuff. And other tech/martial arts related discussions.
Ummm ... "space metal" is really just molecularly aligned metals (something you can do "fairly" easily in zero-G).
While this makes the metal "tougher" and doesn't really effect it's "hardness". "Tough" metals are generally more durable and less resistant to shattering, "hard" ones take a better edge and are more resistant to damage but tend to be brittle (prone to catastrophic failure when they break).
So I'm afraid I don't really understand why "space age metal" is given "magic" properties.
Ummm ... "space metal" is really just molecularly aligned metals (something you can do "fairly" easily in zero-G).
While this makes the metal "tougher" and doesn't really effect it's "hardness". "Tough" metals are generally more durable and less resistant to shattering, "hard" ones take a better edge and are more resistant to damage but tend to be brittle (prone to catastrophic failure when they break).
So I'm afraid I don't really understand why "space age metal" is given "magic" properties.
Exactly. The Katana's combination of both toughness and extremely hard edge is created by the use of a hard outer skin steel and softer inner core steel, as well as a differentially hardened blade creating a martensite edge which stays razor sharp, and a Pearlite body, which remains flexible and strong. And none of that has anything to do with gravity. It's purely a matter of heat and how quickly each part of the blade cools when quenched. Sure, a ceramic or "glass" blade might be harder and sharper, but it is also far more brittle as a result.
Metal is made up of "crystals" too. So, you cannot say it is not metal. Everything about the description for those field swords says "metal". Metal is not, and never will be "obsolete".
