Symbiosis - quo vadis?

[Jollyrogerxberg]

First, RRC, I must say I'm happy to see that your support to ST is constant. Keep up the good work fellow Scoiata'el.

As a ST main myself, I clearly find this expansion disappointing. I have no problem with the fact that Harmony archetype was nerfed to the ground. It dominated the meta during 7 months, so it can sit out for a few months right now.

But I would have hoped that the new ST archetype was effective. Unfortunately, not only Symbiosis is uneffective in this meta, but moreover, it is the perfect prey for the strongest decks (Nilfgaard spies and of course Skellige Warriors).

From rank 7 to 3, playing Symbiosis was fun. I mainly fought Wild Hunt decks which were beatable. Then I crossed the way of NG and SK and the fun suddenly disappeared.

I think Symbiosis deserves a topic of its own where to discuss its major flaws. So I won't talk too much about this archetype here.

I would rather talk about the main problem of ST, which is in my opinion rather the same since closed beta : their different archetypes don't work well together.

They are hard to combine for one simple reason : they are mainly racial (Dwarfs, Elves, Dryads/Symbiosis) or the opposite (Harmony).

All the rest (Move, Handbuff) are not fully fleshed out archetypes but sub-archetypes.

Therefore, usually, each new expansion benefits to only one ST archetype (Dwarves, Elves or Dryads). Harmony was an exception because of its very nature ; it could benefit from almost any new cards. But Harmony is now too weak to benefit from anything.

The last two expansions illustrate this problem well. The elf scenario only works in an elf deck. Eithne evolving card only works in a symbiosis deck. Combining these two cards is really complicated.

In the meantime, NG can astonishingly combine its Masquerade ball and Evolving Usurper. Moreover, several of its archetypes (aristocrats, spies, assimilate) work well together.

I think the solution for ST would be to promote its sub-archetypes (Handbuff, Move), so that they combine well with racial or harmony archetypes.

I remember a time when a Handbuff deck with a few Harmony cards was pretty effective (during Crimson Curse). But for the moment, Handbuff is unplayable.

So, that's what I hope for the future of ST, more interactions between its different archetypes / sub-archetypes.

Also, I agree With DRK3 : right now, Elf archetype is the most effective. It appears that with a few tech cards, it can counter almost any top tier/annoying decks.

But this is rather frustrating because I already played this deck during the last 6 months. I wanted to try the new archetype, or at least include some of the new cards in my elf deck.

But with the exception of oneiromancy, I don't see anything of interest.

Since your post in the grievience thread sums it all up pretty well, lets start on the Point you left.

Symbiosis what does it good and what not? And probably how to combine existing subarchetypes. As someone stated the setup is really slow like from a long gone time. Problematic are also the payoffs. Rebuke as the best bronce nature card as an example is often forced before you can setup any serious engines. Hama+caress Is scary on every end like an early and tall seajackel. If you finally had your engines setup and nature flows, what to do with all those trees? okay play oak... again. How good would be a Talisman now, but no. Devotion, no room for Triss whatever no swarmbuff. If you set up engines. Remember spawning youngones is neither an abundance nor are they in any way tough nor fast.

First thing came to my mind, when I saw the knew Gold Nature card is: why is this not payoff? At least an option to buff two units so I could protect Eithnes girls. Or a really big bang like buff a unit by the number of dryads and/or (random) damage (a) units(s) by the number of Trees. Just something...

Then Handbuff, again couter synergy. Random - oh no! it hit Eithne - all gone. Champaing buffs dryad - oh no! only Eithne in hand again or sheldon and no aglais....
Dunca looks cool but Handbuff playable? Stunning blow, outch! Why again I play this?

Sometimes I think devs just don't have time to test or ask somebody who actually plays the game.
What are your thoughts about Symbiosis?

 

[Guest 4404014]

There are three problems with symbiosis:

1) Devo ST is missing quite a lot:
- last say tall punish
- tall punish in general outside the very bad since the harmony nerf poison package, serious problems whenever a unit gets 6 or taller (NR's AA-ed engines and Rad Guards/Marines, all evolving cards, MO veil engine, Herkja boosted by Blacksmith, lots...)
- effective defender answer due to no effective purify outside Deadeye decks, zero answer to Azad
- effective in today's meta wide punish (can use the trap but...) outside Shirru that needs a half a deck built around it
- engine protection outside the super pricey and unreliable handbuff that can't protect tokens and Miners that don't really protect much (Young Dryad still gets Jousted, and Dunca still gets Stunning Blow-ed)

2) Very lackluster cards:
- Duen Canal Guardian and Circle of Life are supposed to synergize for step-by-step removal and symbiosis but they are too low-value and too inconsistent in today's meta (5 for 5 plus maybe some removal and maybe some symbiosis is just too low)
- the echo card is not functional. 9 provision single unit boost makes zero sense in today's Gwent outside very specific and rare situations
- Eithne is imo the worst evolving card with how easy it is to deny its value.
- Abandoned Girl: 4 for 4 and a dubious engine potential in the age when unconditional 7 for 4 in a norm, and just about all other 4p engines are better (not even mentioning the Blacksmith...). Even if harmony was still functional and the tag swap made sense it'd would still be too low.
- defender made even more unviable with the rise of SK

Funny thing is that those - let's be honest - trash cards do see inclusion in the best ST decks because there simply isn't anything else for the archetype.

3) Not enough functional nature cards in different provision ranges

4) Elven Symbiosis - Inability to play long rounds due to row limit & very abusable by row blockage

5) Being number 1 farm faction for SK.

Supposed to only 3 but I couldn't help myself. Pls fix it devs!

 

[Pacifixer]

I think Symbiosis was a good idea, kind of reversed Crime SY. The core gameplan is solid - you prep with Eithne and other engines and than you start blasting weak specials, that are not weak at all thanks to Symbiosis - just like SY with Portal or Whoreson Senior.
Unfortunately, where SY shines ST is strugling - ST has acess to only one multi-engine play (WoB doesn't count, it has piss-poor synergy with Symbiosis), ST prep is too vulnerable, Nature cards are not designed to be played late into the round, and on top of that Symbiosis R1 plan is hand buff which is wasted on Eithne + low tempo.
IMO ST needs better R1 gameplan and synergy between Nature and Symbiosis cards - Eithne should not loose the boist after transforming and she should redistribute those boosts between Young Dryads, also Freixenet should have Symbiosis.

 

[Celadyl]

funnily enough, had they just changed mystic echo instead of harmony, harmony symbiosis would maybe even be a strong archetype. imagine playing round 3, putting down eithne, then playing waters for +3 and having harmony engines on board. since symbiosis already struggles with row capping because of the randomness, that line of play is unthinkable.

 

[Roi_Barbichette]

Thanks for the quote.

Symbiosis archetype has several flaws and I hope that CDPR will address some of them soon.

1) Symbiosis relies on weak engines. With the exception of Eithné, it only has 2, 3 and 4 power engines, when most of the other archetypes have stronger ones.

The 2 points young dryads are kind of insulting, given that everyone and their mother is able to deal 2 damages. Even worse, a lot of deathblow cards also deal 2 dmgs (Blood Eagle says hello).

2) Symbiosis relies on a few high power units. Most of the time, you will try to boost your hamadryads, thanks to dryad’s caress or shaping nature.

Unfortunately, the 2 strongest factions right now (SK and NG) have several ways to obliterate high power units.

NG is notably problematic because of Vincent, Yennefer, Vilgefortz, poison… Against this popular faction, you know that your Hamadryads will never survive.

3) Symbiosis relies on swarm, since it allows you to create many treants. The problem is, once again, that the 2 leading factions are effective against swarm. SK can use the Wild Boar and Heimdall, NG can use spies. Moreover, there are many other effective cards, in every faction (Toruviel, Werecat, lacerate…).

It would be fine if at least Symbiosis could benefit from this swarm, but it’s absolutely not the case. There are only 2 cards which take profit of swarm : the Great Oak and Dennis. We have other cards which rely on swarm, but they are racial (Yaevin, Isengrim…)

Moreover, there is only one card which synergizes with treants : Nature’s Rebuke.

If all these treants make us vulnerable but give us no advantage, what’s the point?

4) Symbiosis lacks good nature cards. The only interesting cards are Dryad’s caress, Nature’s Rebuke, Isengrim Council, Call of Harmony and Shaping Nature (which is the worst echo card).

Anything else is either bad (Circle of life), or related to another archetype (Zoltan Company, Waters of Brokilone…).

5) Symbiosis is slow tempo. Usually, this archetype becomes effective with a lot of set up. It does not work well with weak engines (see point 1).

According to me, what symbiosis needs is: stronger engines, swarm and treants synergy, better and /or more nature cards.
Moreover, Hamadryad should not boost herself when she has vitality, but a random ally unit on your board. Circle of life should cost 4 provision, to be on par with Dwarven agitator and Vrihedd saboteur. Dunca should be able to boost Eithné permanently.

 

[HectorStone]

Need to be careful buffing symbiosis tho, it can potentially snowball into oblivion. Definitely needs something tho.
Could 1 armor on treants be good for protecting against wide punish? and some bronzes def need tuning.

Also Eithné should keep handbuff, that one is a given.

 

[Lokiat0r]

I've played a bit with Symbiosis and it's too weak as it stands. They need to rework a few gold cards to support the archetype.

I'd suggest altering Great Oak to a melee deploy of each allied treant damages a random enemy by 2 points and a ranged deploy of boost allied dryads and treants by 1 point - essentially a hybrid Vernossiel / Isengrim for symbiosis cards.

 

[Breli]

I want to avoid repeating myself and getting in another rant. Most of the key aspects are mentioned by others already. One thing however, is more fundamental.

I really like the idea of symbiosis: fits the faction, is unique and could be a valid archetype at some point in time. The problem and my main concerns are: It will stay unfinished, incomplete and inconsistent like all the other ideas that are thrown in ST and never developed into a coherent and functional archetype on their own. A few months from now it will be abandoned like the other half finished "stumps" and "design wireframes" ... somewhere in between "completely pointless" and "remotely playable"

Now that harmony is gutted, we are left with the "racial" archetypes. Only Elfs are somewhat playable. Dwarfs are mediocre at best and missing key cards resp. concepts other than "play a card". They don't do anything. They are just points. And Symbiosis? How easy would it have been to fit the Echo card in the Symbiosis idea? As a tutor for a bronze card that buffs all allied wandering treants by 1 for instance? But no, Shaping Nature turned out to be just a boost card that doesn't really fit into anything and, as far as I can tell, doesn't see any play just a few weeks after it was released. All other Echo cards see play and are relevant in their respective faction. ST echo card? Nice try, but no thanks. The rest of symbiosis: some of it is good and nice but then there are atrocities like Circle of Life, DC Guardian and stupid design flaws like losing buffs on Eithne. Did anyone actually think a bit about how symbiosis was supposed to be played?

Sometimes I get the impression that ST is some sort of "trial ground" for junior designers to explore some ideas and tinker around with whatever they like. However, all of that is done without a leading concept/design idea in mind. There is no consistency where this might eventually go ... Just think about the plethora of ideas that have been part of the ST design but either abandoned altogether or at least not developed into anything:

- Artifacts: At the release of homecoming artefacts where (for good or bad) actually some kind of sub-archetype. Since two years now a Hawker Support sits in my deck builder and prays that I scrap him already to put him out of his misery. ST actually has cards that care about artifacts! Several ones. Never finished, never re-designed, never used. Dead.
- Traps: gutted, abandoned altogether.
- Handbuff: There was never a time during which handbuff was a thing. Never. Not even the weeks during which Skaggs was considered to be "oppressive". It even was shitty back then ... immensely overrated, never explored. Best handbuff card is a neutral. I actually laughed out loud when I read the release notes and the agitator buff.
- Spells: A few here and there, yes, but who uses Farseer? Sage? If you want to play specials you go for NG tactics or even unitless monsters ... Admittedly, I like ST Gord but come on ... that is not even mediocre in the current meta.
- Movement: I remember when Matrons came out! And Boar! Both fantastic ideas, finally some movement support, they even buffed Malena a little ... but now? No support/new idea since how long? Abandoned.
- Dwarfs: Buffed with IJ, then nerfed and now in limboland of playability.
- Elfs: A bit better of than dwarfs but playing the same 15 cards gets a bit old after a while ...
- Dryads 1st iteration: some ideas (vitality), fantastic artworks ... but who played Grovekeeper ever?
- Dryads 2nd iteration: Ok, lets try symbiosis now ...
- ...

In German we would say "Resterampe" to this mixed bag of concepts, idea sketches, half designs and stumps that don't form any coherent, long term strategy or vision for the faction. Bits and pieces all over the place. Somehow multiple factions in one. Fragmented and chaotic.

Who is taking bets whether we need to add Symbiosis to the list above 6 months from now? I really, really hope not. I really like Gwent and ST.

Jason indicated that they might do more with the next update. I really, really hope for a general "overhaul". Lets hope they make ST great again ...

 

[Roi_Barbichette]

@Breli
Well, at least I'm learning some new german words, I like it !

In French, we would say that this mixed bag of ideas is a "salmigondis".

I agree with you on the fact that for CDPR, Scoiata'el appears to be some kind of laboratory. I don't know if junior designers are in charge of this faction, but several of its archetypes definitely seem to be "half baked".

For example, Symbiosis allows you to :
- generate a lot of treants, but has only one card that can benefit from it (rebuke)
- give a lot of vitalities to your units, but has only one card that can really benefit from it (hamadryad)
- use huge boosts, but has only one card that can benefit from it (Aglais)
- etc...

It appears that designers thought it would be cool to spawn a lot of treants (and it is cool, indeed), but without thinking of what we were supposed to do with it.

And the same can be said from most of the other ST archetypes.

The only exception was Harmony. But it's due to the fact that Harmony could "feed" on nearly any cards, due to its very nature. And some buffs to this archetype were certainly unintended, like Muirlega and its beast tag, for example.

 

[Breli]

Well, at least I'm learning some new german words, I like it !

... Salmigondis sounds much better though! And the German translation "Allerlei" oder "Sammelsurium" actually describes it much better than Restrampe

The only exception was Harmony. But it's due to the fact that Harmony could "feed" on nearly any cards, due to its very nature. And some buffs to this archetype were certainly unintended, like Muirlega and its beast tag, for example.

Exactly. Harmony was in fact nothing else than allowing you to play a "best of" Scioa'tael with the added benefit of harmony procs. Now that that is gone, we are stuck with the sub-factions. This fragmentation in sub-factions Elfs, Dwarfs, Dryads really hurts ST and bothers me the most. Thats exactly why I would like to see a "fighter" tag with cross tribe synergy.

To be fair to the devs: It is only natural that some ideas go nowhere and that cards "age". It happens in other factions as well. NG Reveal for instance. And reworks were done a couple of times. NR last year and recently NG Spies. And this also takes time and resources. So there is hope (I hope!).

But the sheer amount of totally useless cards and forgotten concepts in ST is just mindboggeling!

 

[Jollyrogerxberg]

SInce we all agree... in sum: low tempo and engines are vulnerable, lack of synergy and payoff with the treant spawn besides Oak - a staple and carry since intruduction with Crimson Curse, "shape of nature"s uselessness/punish...

...ot: "salmigondis" sounds like something you enjoy in the summer or might get from eating old eggs
"Resterampe" very german with all the rstrrp
Harmony is/was an "Allerlei", Scoia as a faction in general is a "Sammelsurium" of ideas and half fleshed archetypes, but rightnow it's just the "Resterampe" of the deckbuilder.
shared pain is half pain i guess