Syndicate Lined Pockets Crimes (after 8.3/8.4) suggestions.

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Hello to everyone.

I guess you might've noticed contemporary LP Crimes probably need to be adjusted "a little bit". The question is, what to aim in the deck. While there are some obviously strong cards, that I can imagine lots of you may take into consideration first (like Cleaver, Drill, Philippa or Gord), I have quite a different idea today. I don't say some of those high provision cards couldn't be adjusted at all. But it's rather tricky, as some of those can compliment different archetypes as well and you wouldn't like to nerf those archetypes, I believe.

My idea is, this deck is based upon not just those high provs cards but a very solid bronze core as well. With quite a few bronzes being buffed recently. LP Crimes is typologically a control deck imo. These decks usually excel in reactivity but lack in proactivity. And that makes them kinda balanced. (You are favored in some particular matchups, while unfavored in others. As well as the coin flip is important for you.) But this deck, seems to me, doesn't lack (cheap) proactive plays at all. In fact the (very strong) round 1 strategy is pretty much relying on it. I'm talking about Safecrackers. I'm not sure whether any other cards of this deck are OP on their own or not, but this one definitely is. Let me do a small comparison.

Another typical control deck is NG Enslave / Tactics. And there is in fact very similar unit for this archetype in the NG faction. Venendal Elite, which has the exact same deploy ability (for Tactics) as the Safecracker does (for Crimes). BUT with the difference the Safecracker also has the Intimidate tag (thus bringing the additional engine value) as well as being tutorable with Novigradian Justice in more addition. This all "compensated" just by 1 point of power difference.

Let's say you usually want to have 4-5 Crimes / Tactics in hand for round 1 on average. By playing Venendal Elite you're getting 8.5 pts (on average) for 5 provs. That's allready more than decent. By playing Safecracker you're getting 7.5 pts immediately + up to like 4-5 other (you certainly don't play all Crimes you hold every time, but on the other hand you usually tutor some more with Ferko or even the Oneiromancy) making up to 12 (and possibly even more) pts for those same 5 provs. That's crazy. Also bear in mind, that you usually don't want 2 Venendal Elites in your hand as you don't want those Safecrackers, but in the latter case the second Safecracker is more than effectively tutorable.

MY PROPOSE IS: either remove the Intimidate tag from the Safecracker or his deploy ability. Preferably the Intimidate tag, as there are other units with it, while this deploy ability is uniqe within this faction. The possible compensational power buff (to 4 pts) is to be considered than, though I'm not convinced it'd be necessary given the fact of the added advantege of "tutorability" by NJ. And furthermore difference between 3 and 4 pts in terms of risk of potential removal are more likely negligable.

I don't say, this is an "all solving" change for this deck, but it's the most obvious one to me. And imo the fact, that you have to choose whether to play a tempo play with the advantage of Crownsplitter pocket with high chance of sticking on the board or whether to go for an engine with the risk of easy 4-5 pts damage removal actually can make you times a little bit harder after all.

What do you, guys, think of it? What other proposal do you have for adjusting this deck?
 
I kind of agree with this. Or maybe make it 6p, since it's "as strong" as Half-elf hunter and smuggler (lol). Also they may want to tune down the drill a bit. Maybe give it an extra provision point as well.
 
I kind of agree with this. Or maybe make it 6p, since it's "as strong" as Half-elf hunter and smuggler (lol). Also they may want to tune down the drill a bit. Maybe give it an extra provision point as well.
Give an extra provision to drill there is no sense.

Drill himself its a 5 points card plus one coin for 7 provision. That is more than the points the card produce on deploy.

Ok, it can do 3 damage with 2 coins, but also, it can do 2, or even 1 damage with 1 coin.

So, for those 3 damage you need to setup the engine, and its not that easy (of course with cleaver it is a little easyer, but when you dont have cleaver in hand?).

Also, almost all the itme 1 coin = 1 point, so its no that much you spend coins to do damage.
 
Give an extra provision to drill there is no sense.

Drill himself its a 5 points card plus one coin for 7 provision. That is more than the points the card produce on deploy.

Ok, it can do 3 damage with 2 coins, but also, it can do 2, or even 1 damage with 1 coin.

So, for those 3 damage you need to setup the engine, and its not that easy (of course with cleaver it is a little easyer, but when you dont have cleaver in hand?).

Also, almost all the itme 1 coin = 1 point, so its no that much you spend coins to do damage.
The setup is NOT hard at all, and not only with Cleaver. And with coins being an untouchable resource, the thing commonly plays for 17 on deploy after 2-TURN setup, and you can easily turn that into 26 if you add leader charges. That's a 7p card REMOVING 21 points from the opponent's board in 1 TURN, and those points aren't locked to either a single tall unit or even a row, but can be spread HOWEVER YOU WANT. You're telling me it's "6 for 7"? Really? People complain about 13-point Gord...
 
Maybe they need to adjust the rng on safe crackers and justice because somehow they are always on starting hand. But beside that maybe change intimidate for gain a coin everytime you play a crime will change the tactic a bit. You don't want to overprofit so less crimes on hand and you will need bronze spenders as well. You don't want to commit the gold ones on R1 if there is no need.
 
The setup is NOT hard at all, and not only with Cleaver. And with coins being an untouchable resource, the thing commonly plays for 17 on deploy after 2-TURN setup, and you can easily turn that into 26 if you add leader charges. That's a 7p card REMOVING 21 points from the opponent's board in 1 TURN, and those points aren't locked to either a single tall unit or even a row, but can be spread HOWEVER YOU WANT. You're telling me it's "6 for 7"? Really? People complain about 13-point Gord...
You know those 15 coins would generate points in another spender, anyway? So, if you setup well, spend all your leader charges you get a 12 for a 7.

Ok, its a good card, but not so OP. There is a lot of cards with 7 provision which gets similar points with good setups.

Examples: champio charge, can kill a 12 points unit (even more).
Treason can get 12 or even more.
Serpent trap
Gerd
Blueboy lugos gets 11
Manticora - easy get 12 or more
Gael

And there is a lot of other cards that can get easy 12 or more points, but needs more rounds.

Also, in fact, the normal is you whant to kill specific units, so its normal you use 2 coins to do only one or 2 damage, which reduce the value of the card. If you need to use 2 coins to do one damge, you reduce the value of the card from 12 to 7 to 10 to 7
 
I kind of agree with this. Or maybe make it 6p, since it's "as strong" as Half-elf hunter and smuggler (lol). Also they may want to tune down the drill a bit. Maybe give it an extra provision point as well.
That would probably make more balanced the card itself, but I doubt it would help adjust the deck. As I was trying to point out part of the reason the deck is so strong is, it has very strong R1, while being very cheap at the same time. Being able to put an engine immediately runnig out of range of cheap removals (4-5 pts) on the board is part of that problem. Change the card, so you have to choose. Either an engine or the tempo play, not both in one (bronze) card.
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The setup is NOT hard at all, and not only with Cleaver. And with coins being an untouchable resource, the thing commonly plays for 17 on deploy after 2-TURN setup, and you can easily turn that into 26 if you add leader charges. That's a 7p card REMOVING 21 points from the opponent's board in 1 TURN, and those points aren't locked to either a single tall unit or even a row, but can be spread HOWEVER YOU WANT. You're telling me it's "6 for 7"? Really? People complain about 13-point Gord...
I see a good point in your argument, but on the other hand, you have to acquire all those coins you need for your Drill value somewhere. Profit cards are needed and you should allways include their provision cost in this kind of total count as well. And they're usually reasonably balanced on their own.

I don't mind adjustig the drill further, I'm just saying you have a good point, but your perspective is not full.

And discussing the setup, even the Safecracker change from my original proposal could actually make it slightly harder. ;)
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Maybe they need to adjust the rng on safe crackers and justice because somehow they are always on starting hand.
:D

You don't want to commit the gold ones on R1 if there is no need.
Yes. And LP kinda don't have to and still could take it pretty easily. And that's part of the problem. Make them to struggle more without commiting. Make their time more harder on the blue coin taking a part of their proactivity away from them. Make them pay more for the round control.
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Also they may want to tune down the drill a bit. Maybe give it an extra provision point as well.
What about some kind of condition? Adrenaline maybe?
 
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That would probably make more balanced the card itself, but I doubt it would help adjust the deck. As I was trying to point out part of the reason the deck is so strong is, it has very strong R1, while being very cheap at the same time. Being able to put an engine immediately runnig out of range of cheap removals (4-5 pts) on the board is part of that problem. Change the card, so you have to choose. Either an engine or the tempo play, not both in one (bronze) card.
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An actual choice would be interesting, but giving it 6p would absolutely affect the deck as well.

I see a good point in your argument, but on the other hand, you have to acquire all those coins you need for your Drill value somewhere. Profit cards are needed and you should allways include their provision cost in this kind of total count as well. And they're usually reasonably balanced on their own.

I don't mind adjustig the drill further, I'm just saying you have a good point, but your perspective is not full.

And discussing the setup, even the Safecracker change from my original proposal could actually make it slightly harder. ;)

Yes, the perspective is not full, but no, you don't have to include their provision cost, though you can. It certainly depends on whether you want to show the card as "OP" or "worthless." Coins is a unique resource, because they are non-interactive. It's similar to Gord "counting" special cards. Do we need to include their provision costs when calculating what Gord plays for at the end of the match? Because without them Gord is a 3 for 7. May need a little buff :D
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You know those 15 coins would generate points in another spender, anyway? So, if you setup well, spend all your leader charges you get a 12 for a 7.

Ok, its a good card, but not so OP. There is a lot of cards with 7 provision which gets similar points with good setups.

Examples: champio charge, can kill a 12 points unit (even more).
Treason can get 12 or even more.
Serpent trap
Gerd
Blueboy lugos gets 11
Manticora - easy get 12 or more
Gael

And there is a lot of other cards that can get easy 12 or more points, but needs more rounds.

Also, in fact, the normal is you whant to kill specific units, so its normal you use 2 coins to do only one or 2 damage, which reduce the value of the card. If you need to use 2 coins to do one damge, you reduce the value of the card from 12 to 7 to 10 to 7

This is a pretty silly math here. Sure, it's a 12 for 7 PLUS it gives you UTILITY to convert those extra coins into wiping your opponent's board instead of leaving them as boost on your end that can be reset, removed, or even just partially damaged.

The card examples are bad too, because none of those cards allow you to snipe-destroy multiple units in one single turn. And removing the unit "completely" at the cost of an extra coin-to-point value is definitely more valuable than getting full points' worth but leaving that unit on the board, so that's not a drawback even a little bit.
 
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An actual choice would be interesting, but giving it 6p would absolutely affect the deck as well.



Yes, the perspective is not full, but no, you don't have to include their provision cost, though you can. It certainly depends on whether you want to show the card as "OP" or "worthless." Coins is a unique resource, because they are non-interactive. It's similar to Gord "counting" special cards. Do we need to include their provision costs when calculating what Gord plays for at the end of the match? Because without them Gord is a 3 for 7. May need a little buff :D
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This is a pretty silly math here. Sure, it's a 12 for 7 PLUS it gives you UTILITY to convert those extra coins into wiping your opponent's board instead of leaving them as boost on your end that can be reset, removed, or even just partially damaged.

The card examples are bad too, because none of those cards allow you to snipe-destroy multiple units in one single turn. And removing the unit "completely" at the cost of an extra coin-to-point value is definitely more valuable than getting full points' worth but leaving that unit on the board, so that's not a drawback even a little bit.
You know if they increase the provision cost the card its going to be useless, since there is freakshow at 7 provision
 
You know if they increase the provision cost the card its going to be useless, since there is freakshow at 7 provision
Freakshow is row-locked, with a little less setup but 50% less potential for damage output. I don't think the drill is going to suddenly become "useless" at 8p.
 
MY PROPOSE IS: either remove the Intimidate tag from the Safecracker or his deploy ability. Preferably the Intimidate tag, as there are other units with it, while this deploy ability is uniqe within this faction. The possible compensational power buff (to 4 pts) is to be considered than, though I'm not convinced it'd be necessary given the fact of the added advantege of "tutorability" by NJ. And furthermore difference between 3 and 4 pts in terms of risk of potential removal are more likely negligable.

I don't say, this is an "all solving" change for this deck, but it's the most obvious one to me. And imo the fact, that you have to choose whether to play a tempo play with the advantage of Crownsplitter pocket with high chance of sticking on the board or whether to go for an engine with the risk of easy 4-5 pts damage removal actually can make you times a little bit harder after all.

What do you, guys, think of it? What other proposal do you have for adjusting this deck?
I was against the buff when it was first implemented and would definitely support the safecracker reverting back to THIS. I'm still surprised it took the community this long to realize how broken this card is after the change. The only 5-Provision card more broken than Halfling Safecracker is Endrega Larva.
 
Originally Safecrackers didn't have the Intimidate tag, flavor wise it doesn't make sense anyway, it was added at a later patch to buff the card.
Personally i would go for some timer ability, like "after 3-4 turns, gain 2-3 coins", as they "crack" the safe.
Very interesting idea, really suits the card.
 
you don't have to include their provision cost
Let me put it this way: imagine it as a combo play - profit card + spender (fee / tribute). Both have some value on their own. But only together they give you additional value (you are talking about). Let's have an example.

You stated:
7p card REMOVING 21 points from the opponent's board in 1 TURN
and you may be right. But you need at least 14 coins for that and you have to gain them somewhere prior. And beside leader you can achieve them only by playing cards that simply cost some provision as well. As well as you can't play those in the same turn. Gaining these coins for example from Pickpocket + full leader (LP) thus mean:

0 pts play for 7 provs in turn 1 + 5 pts / 21 dmg (in perfect setup with proper target) play for another 7 provs in turn 2 = 5 pts / up to 21 dmg for 14 provs (+ full leader) in 2 turns in total. You can't separate these. Drill without any coins will allways be just 5 for 7. As well as Pickpocket without a spender will allways be literally 0 for 7. The uninteractivity of coins has nothing to do with that.

EDIT: You have to spend 5/6 of your leader (in the example) actually - forgot about the 1 coin profit of the drill.
 
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Let me put it this way: imagine it as a combo play - profit card + spender (fee / tribute). Both have some value on their own. But only together they give you additional value (you are talking about). Let's have an example.

You stated:

and you may be right. But you need at least 14 coins for that and you have to gain them somewhere prior. And beside leader you can achieve them only by playing cards that simply cost some provision as well. As well as you can't play those in the same turn. Gaining these coins for example from Pickpocket + full leader (LP) thus mean:

0 pts play for 7 provs in turn 1 + 5 pts / 21 dmg (in perfect setup with proper target) play for another 7 provs in turn 2 = 5 pts / up to 21 dmg for 14 provs (+ full leader) in 2 turns in total. You can't separate these. Drill without any coins will allways be just 5 for 7. As well as Pickpocket without a spender will allways be literally 0 for 7. The uninteractivity of coins has nothing to do with that.

EDIT: You have to spend 5/6 of your leader (in the example) actually - forgot about the 1 coin profit of the drill.
Yes, and I mentioned in the previous post that it's a 2-turn setup. But as also said in a previous post, it takes 10 special cards (or at least 8 turns) to set up a 13-point Gord. Do we need to count provisions of those cards? No, we don't. And yes we can separate them, because it's impossible to actually math it out the way you are trying to. That 0 point play for 7 provisions is not a zero point play if you have intimidate engines on the board, and you also get a coin every time you play a crime, and you might be getting more than one intimidate points depending on where Cleaver sits and what you played before him, and a "ZERO-point" play is tough sledding in R1 bu in R3 that "zero" actually doesn't matter AT ALL (just ask anybody who's ever played traps or other unitless decks), and there may be a million other factors, which you can't convert into straight point like you're trying to do. The fact remains, it's a 7p card, which, after 2-turn setup (1 turn for crownsplitters +1 turn for coins) which is VERY hard to interrupt, and leader charges comes in and removes 21 points from the opponent's side of the board with FLEXIBLE, TARGETED removal. Compare this to arguably the best card in ST: Vernossiel, who would need full leader PLUS 8 deadeyes on the board to hit 21 points RANDOM removal for 12p. Maybe let's add the provisions of all the cards needed to create those other 8 deadeyes, which would include Feign Death? In short, I think 1 provision point nerf is fair...
 
Yes, and I mentioned in the previous post that it's a 2-turn setup. But as also said in a previous post, it takes 10 special cards (or at least 8 turns) to set up a 13-point Gord. Do we need to count provisions of those cards? No, we don't. And yes we can separate them, because it's impossible to actually math it out the way you are trying to. That 0 point play for 7 provisions is not a zero point play if you have intimidate engines on the board, and you also get a coin every time you play a crime, and you might be getting more than one intimidate points depending on where Cleaver sits and what you played before him, and a "ZERO-point" play is tough sledding in R1 bu in R3 that "zero" actually doesn't matter AT ALL (just ask anybody who's ever played traps or other unitless decks), and there may be a million other factors, which you can't convert into straight point like you're trying to do. The fact remains, it's a 7p card, which, after 2-turn setup (1 turn for crownsplitters +1 turn for coins) which is VERY hard to interrupt, and leader charges comes in and removes 21 points from the opponent's side of the board with FLEXIBLE, TARGETED removal. Compare this to arguably the best card in ST: Vernossiel, who would need full leader PLUS 8 deadeyes on the board to hit 21 points RANDOM removal for 12p. Maybe let's add the provisions of all the cards needed to create those other 8 deadeyes, which would include Feign Death? In short, I think 1 provision point nerf is fair...
I don't mind the nerf at all (though I would may rather see some sort of condition). I just disagreed with your style of counting. But I already expressed myself clearly about that, I believe.

Let's say Drill is a 7 provs card with 5 pts floor and VERY high ceilings. Suits better?
 
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