SYNDICATE mechanics are OP and NR patch is not good enough

[TamamasaG]

Stacking charges without comiting units is going against previous goals.

You set a minimum unit cards rule to prevent this issue earlier and changed cards like spear and shield artifacts. SYNDICATE though are a faction BASED on this concept!
How can you base a faction around a concept you previously dropped? It is unfair that they can stack charges forcing opponents to commit units which they can kill off or steal later easily. Any other faction must commit units to stack charges and usually on orders so they can be removed before executing their order. You can remove SYNDICATE's orders but charges stay anyway. SYNDICATE's every unit they commit earlier is a buildup or removal. How can NR compete with this? We don't have a swing this large. We can only reset 1 unit and the townsfolk swing consist more than one. We can continue greedy build up but they just steal or remove our engines usually without even executing their orders. We can build up but we loose on the last say. Loosing against most factions last swing but more on SYNDICATE's wich is OP.

You constantly nerfing the damage dealing cards and introduced a concept of "greedy NR" but in this game last say is very important. Sco can stack 2 very large damage as last say mass murdering the opponents units. NR's removal capabilty is hurt badly after last patch. (I can only compare NR well which I know the best as I play them all the time for a very long time). NG can use Tibor. It's an RNG but it can disable the opponents best card, disable to play it at teh last round or it is useful as last say as a swing. Other factions has Ihuarraquax but that's only a 4 value card Tibor is 13! Let's not continue with other examples. Last say is important and swings like this is hard to compete.

I admit there are good things too I don't say everything is flawed in last patch but still not enough to compete with the other factions. Dijkstra can play 60-80 or more value swing as last say with townfolks. Most other factions can do a very large swing too at the end. NR lost all the big last say swing we had and still rely on RNG if they can pick the right cards to zeal our engines or summon our swarm cards. Even if we can we cannot disable the opponents engines without removal power. So it bacame an RNG contest if we can 1: win last say, 2: protect our engines and 3: pull geralt yrden. Against Syndicate it's almost impossible to accomplish these 3 condition:

1: - All card advantage cards are easily removable or stealable. We don't have huge swings so winning round 1 and save best cards is very hard.

2: - Shield doesn't protect against steal and Syndictae can steal a 9 value card easily. They can remove cards easily too with stacked protected charges. NR has access only 1 neutral immunity giver card and it's on order. (Another problem is NG has too much lock and steal combined+they can banish our cards from the deck-> that was a nono earlier. It was adopted as a concept that no card should prevent a card being used completly such as the birth of spawning the opponents own cards and not stealing it and earlier you removed cards that can damage or remove cards in opponents hand. Now you reintroduced this with Kambi, Shilard and Stregobor). These tactics favor the removal using factions too. They can kill NR engines and value cards before they are executing their purpose.)

3: - RNG+ no tutoring options or high provison card like royal decree. Lowest condition doesn't work as it conflicts other useful cards and neither do highest. Opponents usually have more cards on board at the end anyway due to better removal abilities.

To sum it up: Developers keep going back and forth on concepts and rules. Making the same mistakes and keep introducing OP cards, mechanics and making unbalanced factions. Please improve on this! I know you want a good game. If you can't produce balanced pvp (you had time clearly) than please introduce replayable single player options so people can enjoy this game without the frustration of the uneven field of battle! Consider this a review of the games current state and constructive criticism. This is a feedback and not a start of an argument. I won't get dragged into flame battle over it. If anybody thinks that all I'm saying is silly or not true: good for them! I won't judge you please don't judge me.

I have more than 500h gameplay as I casually playing from the beta phase and don't have enough points because not using the forums often. I can't post in the right thread so please move this to gameplay or suggestions or where it belongs!

 

[StrykerxS77x]

I can agree with parts of this. I don't think I agree that NR can't compete with SY though. What is your personal experience here? What rank are you playing at?

Using my NR and SC decks I have been pretty successful at shutting down SY's huge final turn. Usually I just kill the 6 point Igor the Hook card and the match is over. Yes it's insanely strong if they pull off their combo but the weakness is in relying on this combo or they lose the game.

I believe the big mistake CDPR has made with this game is letting players stockpile resources until the final turn. This is just bad for the game in general. The game is supposed to be a battle. A give and take throughout the match. It's silly to play very little and then win in your last turn. The SY coins mechanic is the latest example of this problem. Artifacts has also been guilty of this and other examples can be named as well. CDPR needs to recognize certain things like this that are just bad for the game. Immune cards have been an issue throughout Gwent and yet the devs have made different kinds of immune cards over and over again. I have never understood the balancing in this game. It's just always so all over the place. Gwents balancing to me is just "throw stuff at the wall to see what sticks".

 

[Hassene_Gadacha_As]

As a Syndicate main player at the moment, you really need to keep your cool during matches. I won so many matches due to people panicking when they see coin combos, throwing entire matches.

Syndicate is strong, but it's really not above any else at the moment. Tactics are known and they can usually be easyly shut down if expected ( for exemple I am using DJ at the moment and many have learned to keep damagin card for when I drop townfolk etc)

The strongest combos are not to difficult to shut down and decks not combo dependants are very much rng based ( you pick 8 cards that give you coins and none to use said coin for exemple).

I am not going to pretend they are not strong, but just focus and you can win.

 

[Nexter3CZ]

As a Syndicate main player at the moment, you really need to keep your cool during matches. I won so many matches due to people panicking when they see coin combos, throwing entire matches.

Syndicate is strong, but it's really not above any else at the moment. Tactics are known and they can usually be easyly shut down if expected ( for exemple I am using DJ at the moment and many have learned to keep damagin card for when I drop townfolk etc)

The strongest combos are not to difficult to shut down and decks not combo dependants are very much rng based ( you pick 8 cards that give you coins and none to use said coin for exemple).

I am not going to pretend they are not strong, but just focus and you can win.

Syndicate is above everyone else what are u saying, they are the only faction that has unique resourse they can use which is uninteractible, now with DJ they have Huge swing, Huge carryover, too much removal they are just OP

Syndicate is just unhealthy for the game and it will never be balanced

 

[Hassene_Gadacha_As]

Syndicate is above everyone else what are u saying, they are the only faction that has unique resourse they can use which is uninteractible, now with DJ they have Huge swing, Huge carryover, too much removal they are just OP

Syndicate is just unhealthy for the game and it will never be balanced

[I disagree.] As with anything if you target damaging cards it's done. If you bait them in using all the resources it's done. They only have 2 really annoying cards that you cannot really avoid one is philippa and the other is graden. Any other techique requires between 2 to 3 turns and you can stop it completely or partially.

I have lost matches to people that targeted the right cards and waited for them by baiting me, again it's a strong faction but definetely not stronger that the new NR or Skellige.

Just learn what cards to wait for and what to target. Coins mean nothing if you have nothing to use them with

 

[ardeathwinggwent]

Yeah, and the reason why from the top 20 in the ladder more than 10 are SY players, is not because SY are OP but something else. Go figure, some people need to wake up.

 

[Archan6el]

[I disagree.] As with anything if you target damaging cards it's done. If you bait them in using all the resources it's done. They only have 2 really annoying cards that you cannot really avoid one is philippa and the other is graden. Any other techique requires between 2 to 3 turns and you can stop it completely or partially.

I have lost matches to people that targeted the right cards and waited for them by baiting me, again it's a strong faction but definetely not stronger that the new NR or Skellige.

Just learn what cards to wait for and what to target. Coins mean nothing if you have nothing to use them with

OP is talking about bad concepts that the devs keep going back and forth on, apparently without a clear vision. One of those bad concepts is stacking points without playing units, using uninteractable cards such as the binary artifacts or Immune units. Even though the devs addressed this in part by nerfing some artifacts (which is no solution for the root cause and has made these artifacts now almost completely useless), they now go all the way back and even further by introducing a completely uninteractable coin mechanic that allows crazy amounts of points to be stacked. Instead of talking about this bad mechanic and root cause of SY balancing problems, you start talking about some sort of counter play for the symptoms (OP leaders, cards and plays) of this bad mechanic. That's completely missing the point.

 

[soph912]

A Northern Realms player complains about Syndicate?
You are probably not aware that NR Commandos is totally overpowered at the moment?

The main reason is the change to Roche: Merciless as they were not overpowered last season. The buff for Foltest would not have been very significate.
The removal of Reach for the Revenants is certainly also significate but Roche: Merciless is better than 20 point Shani ever was.

Non-syndicate players always complain about Philippa Eilhart and keep forgetting:
She costs coins and coins are points!
If Philippa Eilhart steals a 9 Point unit it is not for free. It costs 9 coins which could have been transformed into lots of points otherwise, with Sea Jackal for example 10 points + 1 coin left.
So this is often NOT a 21 points play.

The only broken card is Igor and the leader Dijkstra.

DJ generates coins and every coin he generates counts as a single coin gain for townsfolk while the crime card Pickpocket for example only triggers townsfolk once. If DJ generates 6 coins townsfolk goes up 6 points. If you gain 6 coins with Pickpocket townsfolk goes up one point.
This is of course extremely illogical design.

 

[ElricVIII]

A Northern Realms player complains about Syndicate?
You are probably not aware that NR Commandos is totally overpowered at the moment?

The main reason is the change to Roche: Merciless as they were not overpowered last season. The buff for Foltest would not have been very significate.
The removal of Reach for the Revenants is certainly also significate but Roche: Merciless is better than 20 point Shani ever was.

Non-syndicate players always complain about Philippa Eilhart and keep forgetting:
She costs coins and coins are points!
If Philippa Eilhart steals a 9 Point unit it is not for free. It costs 9 coins which could have been transformed into lots of points otherwise, with Sea Jackal for example 10 points + 1 coin left.
So this is often NOT a 21 points play.

The only broken card is Igor and the leader Dijkstra.

DJ generates coins and every coin he generates counts as a single coin gain for townsfolk while the crime card Pickpocket for example only triggers townsfolk once. If DJ generates 6 coins townsfolk goes up 6 points. If you gain 6 coins with Pickpocket townsfolk goes up one point.
This is of course extremely illogical design.

Philippa lets you spend coins at 1-for-2. If I steal a 5 point unit, that's a 10 point swing. She doesn't even lock the unit, so it can be even more value. That's not even counting the lost value of disrupting an engine.

 

[soph912]

Philippa lets you spend coins at 1-for-2. If I steal a 5 point unit, that's a 10 point swing. She doesn't even lock the unit, so it can be even more value. That's not even counting the lost value of disrupting an engine.

It's not a 10 point (13 points actually) swing as I explained above.
One coin is a bit more than one point on average with a spender and you have to calculate 10-5+3=8 points for 10 provisions if the unit has no abilities anymore.
But certainly players watch out for more valuable targets since seizing a 5 point unit with Philippa is very bad (unless it wins you the round) so it might be a huge swing but this depends on the matchup.
There is nothing of value to seize against NG soldiers for example I guess.

Muzzle is a 10 point swing without paying coins.

Ardal also does not lock the unit.

 

[ElricVIII]

It's not a 10 point (13 points actually) swing as I explained above.
One coin is a bit more than one point on average with a spender and you have to calculate 10-5+3=8 points for 10 provisions if the unit has no abilities anymore.
But certainly players watch out for more valuable targets since seizing a 5 point unit with Philippa is very bad (unless it wins you the round) so it might be a huge swing but this depends on the matchup.
There is nothing of value to seize against NG soldiers for example I guess.

Muzzle is a 10 point swing without paying coins.

Ardal also does not lock the unit.

That's the crux of the problem. Cards like Muzzle, artifacts, and direct damage require a premium of provision : points ratio. Just looking at fee cards to make it simple, for the most part, coins are spent to gain 1 point. Conditional modifiers such as Sea Jackal's horde or Executioner's bounty condition allow a more efficient ratio, and this is a problem when combined with the safety of coins and the ability to burst them all at once. There needs to either be a premium or a timing/usage restriction.

Ardal is not a good argument in your favor, he's a problem, too. I think Muzzle is about as strong as you can make a card like this while still remaining balanced. When I said Philippa is a 10 point swing, I meant that her ability is 10 points (or up to 18), the same way each iteration of Executioner is 1 point. That's the important part: how much value coins have in the game. Pile onto this the lack of locking and the much larger range of targets (compare her to Sweers) and you can see that she lets you spend coins way too efficiently. Further, there's no "lost" points either. If I steal a unit of less than 5 power with muzzle, I don't get to keep the extra points. Muzzle costs me 12 provisions, whereas coins cost me 1 provision each if you look at cards with profit. Phillipa's provision cost does not balance the utility/power behind hording coins.

So all of this adds up to a problem. Coins are incredibly safe as a resource, imagine if I could "bank" my points in another faction and use one of a dozen cards to "spend" them at the end of the round or when my opponent has exhausted his interaction. Or even when he hasn't, I can get immediate value from them on the turn I play the card that spends them.

 

[Gen_Liu]

I agree about SY being completely OP but NR is broken too.
Right now I feel like the game is at its worst in term of balance and it's not only faction wise. Even within SY and NR some cards are just over the top to the point where the rest know litteraly zero play.

Like seriously, who plays SY without including Sigi Reuven, Flying Redanian, Brosodi brothers, Philippa...

The same can be said for the opposite, who plays Arena ghouls or Andrega, for example.

As much as I love this game and respect CDPR I have to admit, even creating decks becomes boring. I usually make one deck per leader but with SY I'm stuck with a couple because all the decks are basically the same with very minor changes.

I also wanted to point out that, it might just be me but I feel like CDPR are making bigger and bigger mistakes in term of balance with every new patch.
Before Crimson Curse, OP cards/mechanics used to be things that wasn't so obvious at first glance, either because they were concept that no other games implemented before (Weather, carry over ect) or because cards allowed for some OP combos that poped out afterwards. Of course there is some exceptions but not that much overall.

Since Crimson curse, however, you have cards or leader that are either really poorly designed (Ardal, Philippa ect) or OP for extremely obvious reasons (Ewald Borsodi, Sigi Reuven ect).

 

[Luckless_Jack]

I also wanted to point out that, it might just be me but I feel like CDPR are making bigger and bigger mistakes in term of balance with every new patch.
Before Crimson Curse, OP cards/mechanics used to be things that wasn't so obvious at first glance, either because they were concept that no other games implemented before (Weather, carry over ect) or because cards allowed for some OP combos that poped out afterwards. Of course there is some exceptions but not that much overall.

Since Crimson curse, however, you have cards or leader that are either really poorly designed (Ardal, Philippa ect) or OP for extremely obvious reasons (Ewald Borsodi, Sigi Reuven ect).

That's my feeling too. It's a real mess right now.

Personally I don't like using broken or OP stuff. Despite that, I've still managed to concoct competitive decks to play, particularly in Seasonal mode. I've always managed to still have fun. I've just played a bunch of games in Seasonal mode though, and the fun has been extinguished. 70% NR with all the typical overpowered cards, nearly all using Foltest. The rest were Usurper decks.

I'm not willing to join the degeneracy, so I think it's time I found something else to play for a while before I'm put off this game for good.

 

[soph912]

That's my feeling too. It's a real mess right now.

Personally I don't like using broken or OP stuff. Despite that, I've still managed to concoct competitive decks to play, particularly in Seasonal mode. I've always managed to still have fun. I've just played a bunch of games in Seasonal mode though, and the fun has been extinguished. 70% NR with all the typical overpowered cards, nearly all using Foltest. The rest were Usurper decks.

I'm not willing to join the degeneracy, so I think it's time I found something else to play for a while before I'm put off this game for good.

No way!

You face in seasonal all kind of stuff. Filavandrel Dorfs is very popular. Monster is also played often.
Foltest is not popular at all since playing Draug is a nightmare in 8 seconds and Foltest without Draug and Roche:Merciless is not overpowered.
Ursurper is fine since his provision is too low to make a really strong deck. Ardal and Calveit hyperthin are the strong decks.

 

[Gen_Liu]

That's my feeling too. It's a real mess right now.

Personally I don't like using broken or OP stuff. Despite that, I've still managed to concoct competitive decks to play, particularly in Seasonal mode. I've always managed to still have fun. I've just played a bunch of games in Seasonal mode though, and the fun has been extinguished. 70% NR with all the typical overpowered cards, nearly all using Foltest. The rest were Usurper decks.

I'm not willing to join the degeneracy, so I think it's time I found something else to play for a while before I'm put off this game for good.

Interesting because I'm exactly the same, I'm trying to make decks avoiding the OP cards of the moment and up to that point I had a lot of success to the point where I could proudly claim that what was considered auto include cards where not as unavoidable as peoples might think.

But in the current meta we reached the point where there is a HUGE difference in power between some of the cards and it's basically impossible to make a viable deck without playing the usual auto includes that everybody plays.

If you want to make a SY deck, for example (I mean, it's either that or NR, the game in its current state has virtually 2 factions) here is what your deck is gonna look like : You'll have Sigi Reuven with Flying Redanian, Ewald Borsodi (and probably his brother because profit 4 is the icing on the cake that make an OP card even more OP), Philippa, Swindle (because this card is one of the worst design in the history of the game since it can provide gold value on a good roll of dice), either Casino bouncers or sewer raiders for the thining, a couple deep in the pontar.

If you add the "very likely to be there" like the whole bounty package, eavedrop (because this card was good before the buff and didn't needed any), Moreelse, Boris, Portal (because every viable 4 provisions unit can be pulled of by portal) then you realize that there is not a lot of freedom in the way you can build your deck, especially considering that, the rest of the cards are significantly worst.

It's honestly sad, especially because I'm an old time supporter of CDPR even taking their side when they made some missteps in the past because everybody make mistakes but I also have to be objective and right now, bringing the game back to a playable state should be a top priority for them (because it's actually that bad, if you play against meta decks of the moment with a none meta deck it's genuinely unplayable).

 

[4RM3D]

I mean, it's either that [SY] or NR, the game in its current state has virtually 2 factions

Let's not forget about hyper-thin NG with Ardal or Usurper, as well as, Monsters with unitless Woodland and finally ST Eithné with Schirru/Scorch; all capable of dealing with SY and NR. And these are not the only viable decks.

 

[Luckless_Jack]

Interesting because I'm exactly the same, I'm trying to make decks avoiding the OP cards of the moment and up to that point I had a lot of success to the point where I could proudly claim that what was considered auto include cards where not as unavoidable as peoples might think.

But in the current meta we reached the point where there is a HUGE difference in power between some of the cards and it's basically impossible to make a viable deck without playing the usual auto includes that everybody plays.

The Syndicate release really made a mess of the game's already tenuous balance. The subsequent release of Sigi, and more crucially the recent NR overhaul, made things a lot worse though. Use the OP stuff or play a hard counter deck, otherwise frustration follows.

If you're not willing to use the OP stuff, ranked isn't very appealing. I found some refuge in the seasonal modes, especially in the first few days of each month, where netdecks weren't immediately available and creativity had its moment. Yesterday was a bit rough though. It seemed like players had all queued into seasonal with their ranked meta decks by mistake. Those decks aren't as powerful there, but they still get tedious to play against. I tried a few more games today and thankfully there was variety again. Perhaps it's due to encountering a wider base of players on Saturdays and Sundays.

I think the Draconid seasonal is much poorer than some of the earlier ones, Elves and Viper in particular allowed all sorts of possibilities. Draconid is severely hampered by the animation and lag issues. It's a pity, because a speed mode could be so good if a greater subset of the cards and leaders were playable.

How are you coping with the current state of the game? Are you still persevering with ranked?

 

[Gen_Liu]

Let's not forget about hyper-thin NG with Ardal or Usurper, as well as, Monsters with unitless Woodland and finally ST Eithné with Schirru/Scorch; all capable of dealing with SY and NR. And these are not the only viable decks.

Capable but not as strong. I tested those decks it's far from being a 5o/5o match up.
Also, hyper thin, unitless, Schirru/Scorch...You have to choose between either OP or dirty decks. That will be without me, I'll wait for CDPR to fix the game instead.

The Syndicate release really made a mess of the game's already tenuous balance. The subsequent release of Sigi, and more crucially the recent NR overhaul, made things a lot worse though. Use the OP stuff or play a hard counter deck, otherwise frustration follows.

If you're not willing to use the OP stuff, ranked isn't very appealing. I found some refuge in the seasonal modes, especially in the first few days of each month, where netdecks weren't immediately available and creativity had its moment. Yesterday was a bit rough though. It seemed like players had all queued into seasonal with their ranked meta decks by mistake. Those decks aren't as powerful there, but they still get tedious to play against. I tried a few more games today and thankfully there was variety again. Perhaps it's due to encountering a wider base of players on Saturdays and Sundays.

I think the Draconid seasonal is much poorer than some of the earlier ones, Elves and Viper in particular allowed all sorts of possibilities. Draconid is severely hampered by the animation and lag issues. It's a pity, because a speed mode could be so good if a greater subset of the cards and leaders were playable.

How are you coping with the current state of the game? Are you still persevering with ranked?

I'm still persevering with ranked, yes but quiet frankly, my interest has dropped a little bit recently.
I'm really not into seasonal. It was a good idea, don't get me wrong but it's just not my kind of mode.
I usually don't like the idea to make a deck for just one season (which is strange because I love creating decks probably even more than playing the game but there we go).

 

[Luckless_Jack]

I'm still persevering with ranked, yes but quiet frankly, my interest has dropped a little bit recently.
I'm really not into seasonal. It was a good idea, don't get me wrong but it's just not my kind of mode.
I usually don't like the idea to make a deck for just one season (which is strange because I love creating decks probably even more than playing the game but there we go).

Yeah, seasonal isn't really a solution, just a potential escape while waiting for CDPR to balance the game better for ranked. Also, like many things implemented in HC, it smacks of a lack of forethought too, as if they are making it up as they go along. Some seasonals work well, some don't. Your point about the decks being for just one season is a good one. It's frustrating to come up with a really fun deck for a particular season, and then not be able to play it again until 11 months later - if all the cards haven't changed by then.

Let's hope they make the game balanced enough so that we can enjoy our off-meta decks in ranked once more.

 

[RyseAurellius]

The game will get there. I'll be patient and not whinge and cry and demand everything be fixed at once and immediately. To be honest I would be surprised if the game didn't have issues at the moment given the expansion it has seen in the last 6 months.

CDPR have seen the issues and are working on them, I don't want to see significant DJ or SY nerfs otherwise he will become a forgotten leader and no one will use SY. All they need to do is give other factions more ways at countering coin gains, cards that could perhaps limit the amount of coins that can be gained in a turn? Or more options to control.

But I have played a DJ 'meta' deck and have lost to all the factions, have lost to people not using Ardal, Foltest or Usurper as well. I have seen some pretty creative and effective decks, so to say that SY and NR are the only two factions in the game right now is disingenuous.

I genuinely hope CDPR looks past the hysterical outcry towards DJ and Foltest and their two factions, bit more patience and work and they can get the rest up to scratch. I want DJ and Syndicate to remain the power benchmark for the game and have everything else brought up to them.