Sadly yes. Well, disregarding the YT crap, at least those who want it have a mod to enjoy. That I can still respect just fine
Yup. Not every game is developed with the idea of outsiders having easy way to access and edit game's assets. Bethesda's games are, but that comes at the very apparent cost in terms of clunkiness and jank.
Which makes people making fun of Bethesda's outdated engine and simultaneously demanding modding support to be on par with all of their previous games... well... hilarious.
Yep, I suppose that Bethesda made concessions (and continued to do so in Starfield) and avoid some features for this reason. Just a guess, but I think it's probably why graphics never was "outstanding" in their games.
Giving access to modders has nothing to do with either of those despite what some might think.
Case in point, Morrowind was a mechanically more complicated game than Oblivion, yet Morrowind was just as moddable. It's a choice Bethesda made. Not necessarily a good one.
As far as graphics, it doesn't make sense to blame that on giving access to modders. Most big open worlds have less impressive graphics than what is possible at the moment of their release. It's a balancing act between performance and graphics. Look at what CDPR did with CP2077. They dialed graphics to 11 and it created this situation where last gen consoles were just pushed to their absolute limits. To the point where new, rather small, additions couldn't be added to them in 1.5.
Skyrim might look pretty bad by today's standards but back then it was fairly good looking and the PS3 and Xbox 360 were pushed pretty hard. Had the textures been better, the foliage more abundant, NPCs more abundant, etc. It would've ran like crap on these consoles. Same goes for Fallout 4. It probably could've looked way better too but the cost would've been performance on more limited hardware.
It's not because of some limitation with the engine or the game either. In fact, you can mod Skyrim, an 11 years old game, to a point where it looks better than CP2077 if you've got the hardware for it. Including ray-tracing FYI. The games could've handled way better graphics just fine, it's Bethesda that chose this so as to not limit access to it's games to only those with top of the line hardware.
Well, i talk about the base game that Bethesda released, not with the modders work
If you compare two "base" games released the same year (2015) for the exact same hardware (for me XB1x), Fallout 4 and The Witcher 3. Graphics were at light years.
So even today, The Witcher 3 have surprisingly decent graphics whereas Fallout 4 seem quite "outdated" (it's subjective, but still). I'm sure with mods, you can push graphics on fallout 4 beyond The Witcher 3 ones, but on the base game, it's not the case.
Red Engine is probably not as "mod friendly" as Creation Engine, but on the "base" game, Red Engine surpasses Creation Engine by far.
I imagine that Starfield won't have outstanding graphics (at least I don't expect to take a slap at all, but that's not what I'm waiting for anyway).
And for me, it's not due "hardware" limitations, but to let modders do it (and let to them a full acces to do it). To take the same example as previously, I'm confident that Bethesda would never use new/innovative third party software like Jali, because it could limit the modding possibilities.
Basically :
"We're not going to bother making sublime graphics, modders will do it if we give them the opportunity to do so. So we "forget" and avoid everything that could limit this"
Maybe I'm wrong, but the fact that Bethesda games never offered really good graphics (and probably never will), but were moddable as hell seem to be linked in a way
Last edited:
Well, i talk about the base game that Bethesda released, not with the modders work
If you compare two "base" games released the same year (2015) for the exact same hardware (for me XB1x), Fallout 4 and The Witcher 3. Graphics were at light years.
So even today, The Witcher 3 have surprisingly decent graphics whereas Fallout 4 seem quite "outdated" (it's subjective, but still). I'm sure with mods, you can push graphics on fallout 4 beyond The Witcher 3 ones, but on the base game, it's not the case.
Red Engine is probably not as "mod friendly" as Creation Engine, but on the "base" game, Red Engine surpasses Creation Engine by far.
You're comparing apples and oranges and missing the point.
Sure TW3 looks tremendously better than FO4 but it also sucks terribly at many things FO4 excels at. How many NPCs are in each games? Way more in TW3 but which one has more NPCs you can actually interact with? FO4 wins that by a large margin. You can extend that exercise to other areas but this isn't an exercise in game comparison.
They're different games (and engines) aiming for different things. Which is "superior" is 100% subjective. If you're looking for a far more linear, story-driven game, TW3 is vastly superior. If you're looking for a true open-world sandbox experience with you and your whims at the center of it all, TW3 suddenly pales in comparison. That's not TW3's (or CP2077) goal and holding it against the game is ridiculous and vice versa for Skyrim/FO4.
For *you* is the key word here. CDPR, Bethesda, Microsoft, EA, you name 'em, are not you. They have budgetary/time constraint and objectives. It's absurd to think that hardware limitation does not play a role. Again, what of CP2077? CDPR threw in all these bells and whistles and we all saw how it went for older tech. That is what happens when you don't properly plan around hardware limitations. You can't have it all in any game, you would need an unlimited budget for that.
It's funny how the same rationales that are constantly used to protect and defend CDPR and CP2077 (rightfully so) are somehow not being applied to Bethesda. The bias on this forum is astounding sometimes.
And JALI is great and all but I've would much preferred they never used it if it meant we could've gotten deeper RPG mechanics or a longer story. I'd take deeper/more content over shiny graphics and animation anytime but to each his own.
Last edited:
I probably badly expressed, it was not to "defend" CDPR or CP77 or Red Engine. Like I said, it's not the same kind of game and anyway, I don't expect the same thing about these games.
Indeed hardware was take in acount (like always), but it seems difficult to me to "blame" the hardware when beside Fallout 4 you had The Witcher 3, Batman: Arkham Knight, Dying Light among others (which run on the exact same hardware).
Edit : I could have taken RDR2 as an example (I didn't search too much). The game has great graphics for sure, but it doesn't seem very "mod friendly" to me (from what I see on nexus).
Last edited:
But again, you're comparing oranges and apples.
Yes, all of these games look better than FO4 but they are vastly different in what they are.
There is a lot happening behind the scenes in Bethesda's game. Things you don't necessarily see but definitely have an impact on performance and they, like everyone else, have to take performance into consideration. Sure, you can improve graphics to an obscene level but at what cost? What other system do you drop in favor of shiny graphics? Like I previously said, it's a balancing act and depending on what the game aims for, different studios choose different focuses.
It's the same thing as this argument that pops up every now and again against CDPR. A lot of people mistakenly believed that CDPR had said that there would be a thousand NPCs on your screen all with their own routine in NC and you could just follow them around their daily lives. I believed that myself. To be clear, I believed they had said that but I never believed they would actually manage to do it because it would be incredibly taxing on hardware. Like stupidly so. It would've literally locked the game's availability to people with top hardware and even then. All these things have a cost. CP2077 can absolutely crush even the top hardware available to PC, that top hardware is already way ahead of the newest consoles. It wouldn't have ran on a PS5 or the series S or it would've ran the same way the game used to run on PS4/XB:One had they had a thousand NPCs with unique routines.
All this background action has a cost.
Last edited:
Let's take an example.
A new third party software for video games is available to generate "real", infinite and adaptative dialogues to all NPCs in function of your answers/questions and which would work whatever the hardware, even on toasters^^ (I believe it already exist, someone posted a video somewhere on the forum). It would be awesome for games like Bethesda ones. Unfortunately, it wouldn't be something that modders could access, modifying or whatever (impossible to share it freely or the tools would be overcomplicated/way too expensive to devellop). So in short, no new quest could be added by modders in games which use this "great" software.
For studios who don't care about modding, it's not a problem at all... But I'm pretty sure, in Bethesda case, they simply wouldn't use it, because the modding comunity could be quite angry, if it's impossible to add new quests (I suppose^^).
So in short, studios have slightly different priorities (which is understandable). I think (but I can be wrong), for Bethesda making moddable features (and provide good tools) is at the top, or almost, of their list. At least, more important than making awesome graphics (or writting a good story, but that, it's subjective^^).
So I will buy Starfield for sure, not for outstanding graphics, not for outstanding story/characters. But for a real good sandboxy RPG like always and hope for a full mod support on Xbox. Because I'll count on the great Bethesda modding comunity to provide an "Unofficial Starfield patch" which will fix all the bugs that Bethesda will never bother to fix (so yeah, in this case, it will be "Thanks modders")
A new third party software for video games is available to generate "real", infinite and adaptative dialogues to all NPCs in function of your answers/questions and which would work whatever the hardware, even on toasters^^ (I believe it already exist, someone posted a video somewhere on the forum). It would be awesome for games like Bethesda ones. Unfortunately, it wouldn't be something that modders could access, modifying or whatever (impossible to share it freely or the tools would be overcomplicated/way too expensive to devellop). So in short, no new quest could be added by modders in games which use this "great" software.
For studios who don't care about modding, it's not a problem at all... But I'm pretty sure, in Bethesda case, they simply wouldn't use it, because the modding comunity could be quite angry, if it's impossible to add new quests (I suppose^^).
So in short, studios have slightly different priorities (which is understandable). I think (but I can be wrong), for Bethesda making moddable features (and provide good tools) is at the top, or almost, of their list. At least, more important than making awesome graphics (or writting a good story, but that, it's subjective^^).
So I will buy Starfield for sure, not for outstanding graphics, not for outstanding story/characters. But for a real good sandboxy RPG like always and hope for a full mod support on Xbox. Because I'll count on the great Bethesda modding comunity to provide an "Unofficial Starfield patch" which will fix all the bugs that Bethesda will never bother to fix (so yeah, in this case, it will be "Thanks modders")
Last edited:
I know there are dialogue systems that are "adaptative" already out there. They're not all they're cracked up to be though. I've certainly never heard of one that's infinite and there is most certainly limitation in the answer it can give based on the question you can actually ask. Not to mention, it definitely won't beat hand crafted dialogue.
Anyway, even if it does exist, it's a HUGE assumption that you're making.
I've already explained that it already happens. It could be possible. It's up to Bethesda, or any other company, to strike deals that allows it to happen. It's certainly a hurdle, I'll grant you that, but it's not impossible. Far from it.
It certainly is high up on their list and for good reason. It's also not the incredible undertaking you seem to think it is that would take away from their capabilities to make better graphics. You can fire the tools provided with Morrowind and those provided with FO4 and you'll feel right at home. It's their tools. As in the same that they use to make the actual games. With some slight differences and added limitations for various reasons but it's still the same tools with improvements over the years.
They're just making their tools available. it takes resources, certainly, but it's not nearly as you think. Not to mention they come out months after the game these days. Chances are they adapt their own tools after development.
And, frankly, I'd rather have mod tools than shiny graphics. Again, we seem to be coming at this from very different angles, I don't care much for graphics. I'd rather have the incredible potential that comes with a modkit than great animations or graphics.
Yeah, I wish it would be possible for consoles users to get all the awesome stuff we PC users get but I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. Microsoft and Sony's rules on modding are pretty limiting but you already know that.
Yeah, it's their mod tools that they can/will adpat/modify/improve. But they're probably stuck with their Creation Engine which is the limiting factor if you ask me.
Let's imagine that the Unreal Engine 5 allows studios to create games with sublime graphics and above all, which would run smootlhy on all platforms even the weaker. Bethesda woundn't be able to "follow" and can't do like CDPR, switch to another (better) engine. So there is a risk to see their games "graphically outdated" even before their release (maybe it's not a problem for you, but I believe it is, for plenty of players)
So we don't agree, but I trully believe that providing this level of modding possibilities certainly limits the other parts (graphics is one of these parts).
Unofficial patches are available on consoles for FO4 and Skyrim, so I have absolutely no doubt that it will be available for Starfield at some point
In my case, I also don't really care about graphics (nor mods for say the truth^^), but I'd rather prefer a good story
YEa Creation engien cant do good gfx...
Only differance is instead of a studio making all the textures its 1000s of modders. There stuff is at times absolutely amazing and its actually runs pretty well on sufficent hardware.
Only differance is instead of a studio making all the textures its 1000s of modders. There stuff is at times absolutely amazing and its actually runs pretty well on sufficent hardware.
It can. AI, physics, animations and stability, however, are another matter. As are the loading screens you get upon entering a building.
Tbh it was pretty stable last time i played it with mods, think i hade 1 or 2 crashes in like 50 hours. No major physics glitches or ai gone totaly weird either. Skyrim SE is fairly stable compared too when Skyrim came out. Even modded too hell. You need quite the beefy Pc too run it with 1300 mods tho
I should add that most of this has been with fixes from modders. The Havoc issue is solved by them for example.
Last edited:
If you're comfortable in your belief that the Creation Engine is a limiting factor despite thousands of mods proving otherwise, by all means, keep believing that.
Unofficial patches are available on consoles for FO4 and Skyrim, so I have absolutely no doubt that it will be available for Starfield at some point
I'm aware the unofficial patches are available on consoles.... I'm talking about your statement of a "full mod support on consoles". That's never happening. The unofficial patches are but the tip of the iceberg when it comes to modding.
So it can do GFX but AI, physics, animation are another matter and is unstable. Completely false.
What about how with the script extender, AI has been improved substantially? From basic behaviors like running from dragons with checks on each NPC to determine whether it makes sense for them to stand and fight to much more complex combat behaviors.
With FNIS, any kind of animation can be directly injected into the game too. Actual mocaped animations for Skyrim exists, idle animations, context sensitive animations, item specific animations, gender specific, player specific. You name it, it exists. There is currently a traversal animation mod being made for Skyrim which include the infamous climbing ladders! Climbing ledges or squeezing through objects amongst other things.
Physics? Same thing. Modders have fixed and improved that. From clothing physics to swaying leaves and grass all the way to... pretty weird stuff honestly. Weird but technically proficient stuff.
It's also a well documented fact that the building/city loading screens are a trick used by Bethesda to limit performance hit. The engine can do it just fine as displayed by the many open cities mods. They bring all those cells into the game world just fine but come with a substantial performance hit. Beefier PCs could handle them just fine back then and they barely make a dent in modern PCs but would've absolutely obliterated consoles performance.
You can have all of those running and if you dedicate enough time to understanding how to correctly mod you game, it'll be very stable too.
All of that and the only thing modders never really had access to is the engine. The engine has shown it can handle much more just fine.
Last edited:
Honestly, I am
Like Notserious said, Creation Engine can display awesome graphics at condition to have a "beefy" PC (which is not the case for majority of players).
But I think, it's the same kind of limitation that Red Engine reached too (Cyberpunk is gorgeous, but on "beefy" PCs).
I misspoke again I suppose, but "full mod support" for me, it's that the game support mods without any modification by players (like Skyrim/Fallout). Meaning that you can install and play with mods, then revert back to vanilla without any problem.
But yeah, I'm aware that the mods themself are very (very) limited due to Microsoft and Sony
It can do so much more, you want Souls like combat? install some animations + combat mods and you can. ou want too play as a bard? Theres a mod for that (you can even have like 10 followers and stand in the back with buffs/healing if you want) True with 1300 mods you will need a somewhat beefy pc especially with gfx as in the video i linked. But its scaleble.Honestly, I am
Like Notserious said, Creation Engine can display awesome graphics at condition to have a "beefy" PC (which is not the case for majority of players).
But I think, it's the same kind of limitation that Red Engine reached too (Cyberpunk is gorgeous, but on "beefy" PCs).
It also dont have support for modified exe and reshade/enb witch is quite important too get the gfx of newer games. I saw tho that xbox has plenty of the mods i use. Seems Sony is much more limiting. last time i modded heavely it was just faster too delete the entire Skyrim folder and redownload it. It was close too 250 gb and unistalling every single mod would probably have taken ages -.- Thats what i like about it, i can make the game they way i like it since it has so menny mods. Theres everything pretty much.I misspoke again I suppose, but "full mod support" for me, it's that the game support mods without any modification by players (like Skyrim/Fallout). Meaning that you can install and play with mods, then revert back to vanilla without any problem.
But yeah, I'm aware that the mods themself are very (very) limited due to Microsoft and Sony
Honestly, I am
But still, that's just graphics options. It can do so much more that you're not seeing.
Like @Notserious80 said, you want Skyrim to play like a Souls like game? You can do it. Rolls and everything. You want Fallout 4 to play like a modern FPS shooter? With different stances, ammunition types, taking cover, etc. You can do it.
The engine can handle it just fine.
Yeah, that's not full mod support. It's missing critical things to even come close. Like the aforementioned Script Extenders. That alone allows to drastically change how the games play.
I've seen what's available on console and while Xbox has a better selection it still so.... limited.
Still, better than nothing.
You should use your mod manager's profiles. That's what I do anyway. I have an external 1TB SSD with both SkyrimSE and FO4 mods on it that I keep updated through the years. Thinking of getting a new one with more storage too since this one is nearly full but it allows me to quickly change my mods between stable builds and WIP builds but also back to vanilla in a matter of minutes.
But still, that's just graphics options. It can do so much more that you're not seeing.
Like @Notserious80 said, you want Skyrim to play like a Souls like game? You can do it. Rolls and everything. You want Fallout 4 to play like a modern FPS shooter? With different stances, ammunition types, taking cover, etc. You can do it.
The engine can handle it just fine.
I misspoke again I suppose, but "full mod support" for me, it's that the game support mods without any modification by players (like Skyrim/Fallout). Meaning that you can install and play with mods, then revert back to vanilla without any problem.
But yeah, I'm aware that the mods themself are very (very) limited due to Microsoft and Sony
Yeah, that's not full mod support. It's missing critical things to even come close. Like the aforementioned Script Extenders. That alone allows to drastically change how the games play.
I've seen what's available on console and while Xbox has a better selection it still so.... limited.
Still, better than nothing.
You should use your mod manager's profiles. That's what I do anyway. I have an external 1TB SSD with both SkyrimSE and FO4 mods on it that I keep updated through the years. Thinking of getting a new one with more storage too since this one is nearly full but it allows me to quickly change my mods between stable builds and WIP builds but also back to vanilla in a matter of minutes.
I did, i just was going too uninstall anyways so it was faster too just delete it all ^^ I started using modmanager after i saw how much more you could do with it but took awhile too learn. Unistalling them 1 by 1 would have taken hours ^^