"That Ending" Just Seems Bugged

[FrancisAnderson]

According to online sources, in order to get

Spoiler

(Don't Fear) The Reaper

ending, you have to select a very specific branch of dialogues in

Spoiler

Chippin' In

while talking to

Spoiler

Johnny

. And as far as I know, that's the only condition you need to fulfill to get the ending, and nothing else.

Which makes absolutely no sense to me, it is not at all intuitive to start that specific dialogue branch, the branch itself is nothing special compare to the other branches of dialogues, and nothing in that specific ending reflect those dialogues or even has a sliver of f**k all to do with it at all.

The key words are: "

Spoiler

Kinda tough deciding which one of your friends get to die, isn't it?

"

Instead of that specific dialogue branch, the conditions to trigger the ending should be:

Spoiler

85% affinity with Johnny

Completed

Spoiler

A Like Supreme

Completed

Spoiler

Queen of the Highway

And not choosing some completely unrelated dialogues that has nothing to do with anything.

 

[DjSpyder]

The point of the conversation is, If I understand it correctly, you NEED to call out Johnny on his BS, which in turn A.) makes him respect you more, B.) makes him realize he has failed as a friend not just to V but to many others C.) Make him want to atone for it, and do the right thing by V. so from a narrative reason that's whyt it's there.

Also let's not forget, it was intentionally a "Secret Ending" when the game came out, sure everyone knows about it now, but it was intended as something that needed to be found.

 

[FrancisAnderson]

The point of the conversation is, If I understand it correctly, you NEED to call out Johnny on his BS, which in turn A.) makes him respect you more, B.) makes him realize he has failed as a friend not just to V but to many others C.) Make him want to atone for it, and do the right thing by V. so from a narrative reason that's whyt it's there.

Also let's not forget, it was intentionally a "Secret Ending" when the game came out, sure everyone knows about it now, but it was intended as something that needed to be found.

That makes absolutely no sense what-so-ever.

A) Affinity is already his respect for you, and you can have lower affinity and still get that ending as long as you choose that dialogue branch.
B) Johnny realizing he is a terrible friend and a terrible person was precisely what prompted that conversation to happen in the first place, he was already trying to atone.
C) Even without the secret ending, in the final story mission, Johnny will show that he's trying his darndest to save V and will do him no wrong, a point he already made clear when he gave V the dog tag of his former squadmate in Tapeworm.

If that's what they are trying to achieve narrative-wise, they failed, miserably.
I don't even know how that would make sense thematically, even if it is executed right.

Why would calling him out on his bulls**t, making him realize that he's been a terrible friend to you, and making him want to do right by you prompt him to tell you to go on a suicide run while you are half dead with no backup?


The arc is clear as day for any competent storyteller, everything is already there.

It's about not wanting to drag other people into this.

"Kinda tough deciding which one of your friends get to die, isn't it?"

Johnny, after becoming good friend with V(85% affinity), realizes how terrible of a person he once was.

After reigniting his old friendship with Rogue (and Kerry), doesn't want to drag his old friend into the fire and risk her life just to settle an old score, that is to say, to use her again.

"I either let down or used everyone who ever gave me their trust. Blind, selfish bastard that I was."

He likewise doesn't want V to do the same with his friend(Panam).

So he offers an alternative, to go on a suicide run, taking down Arasaka or going down in a blaze of glory, just you and him, no one else, and he will be glad to die alongside you.

"Good news is you got this one choom who's already dead. And he will be honored to join you on a wild, suicide run."

Also you can have a secret ending without it being locked behind a completely arbitrary condition, isn't having to wait 5 minutes in the dialogue enough of a secret already?
Who's going to wait for several minutes hoping for a secret ending to pop up? If people need to think over the choice they would just pause the game and think about it.

Imagine Undertale, but instead True Pacifist Ending is unlocked only if you ordered burger and told Sans Papyrus is cool.

 

[DjSpyder]

Because there isn't actually an affinity system in the game. I'm not saying you're 100% wrong here.

But at launch, this game had a ton of issues, and most of us assume, there was to be a more thought-out affinity system, not just for Johnny but everyone, there is a ton of evidence of cut stories systems and other content. Some was later restored but a majority was not.

Affinity for Johnny, is not based on anything other than finishing the missions, Choices don't matter at any point except in that one quest, it's not like in something like a BioWare RPG, where he dislikes or likes a choice so it raises or lowers affinity, you just do the missions and the number goes up, it's more like a completion tracker than an actual mechanic, Same as the countdown to V's death, yeah it hits 90% but nothing happens if you play forever without picking a final mission.

All I'm saying is it's not "Bugged" or "Broken" It just perhaps "Rushed" and we got what we got. As for narratively the Choices you need to make are simple, call out his behavior, BUT then leave the door open for redemption and hope he can make things better. It absolutely makes some sense based on the writing. It directly ties into motives, how johnny feels about V, how johnny sees relationships, Not wanting to bring anyone else into their drama, not wanting to screw over another friend, but most importantly being honest with each other and trusting each other. You said this conversation "Has F**k All" to do with anything, but clearly it has to do with V and Johnny's relationship AND Johnny's history of screwing things up. Which again motivates Johhny and V to not risk anyone else. As long as you hit 70% with Johnny and make the right choices in that conversation you get the ending.

NOW could they have done better, yeah sure, I think most people on the forums would agree that a lot of the content feels like it just sort of ends, or like there was supposed to be more build up or more story that just doesn't pan out. Meredith Stout for example feels like she once played a much larger role if you sided with her, but everything after "Venus in Fur" was cut. Considering how the game came out at launch, and everything going on, I think it works in context.

And again, it could be better implemented sure, you could say that about a lot of things in CP2077. But I think it works ok, and it's definitely not "bad" or "Bugged" at least that's my opinion.

 

[FrancisAnderson]

It directly ties into motives, how johnny feels about V, how johnny sees relationships, Not wanting to bring anyone else into their drama, not wanting to screw over another friend, but most importantly being honest with each other and trusting each other. You said this conversation "Has F**k All" to do with anything, but clearly it has to do with V and Johnny's relationship AND Johnny's history of screwing things up. Which again motivates Johhny and V to not risk anyone else. As long as you hit 70% with Johnny and make the right choices in that conversation you get the ending.

You don't actually have to hit 70%, all you need is to choose the correct dialogues in that conversation.

And the problem with that is, all of those elements you just mentioned are not just tied to that specific branch of dialogues, but present in that conversation as a whole, no matter which dialogues you choose.

No matter what dialogues you choose, Johnny realizes he screwed up.
No matter what dialogues you choose, Johnny regrets using people who cared about him.
No matter what dialogues you choose, Johnny wants to atone.
No matter what dialogues you choose, Johnny wants to do right by V.
No matter what dialogues you choose, Johnny cares about V.

Therefore making it arbitrary for it to be tied to those dialogues choice.

The crux of the ending has to do with that conversation as a whole, while those dialogues specifically have f**k all to do with it, which again, makes it arbitrary.

 

[DjSpyder]

Again, the point about Affinity though it's not really there.

The affinity system is basically false face. Every relationship is decided by a choice somewhere. All Romances are Based on 2 Choices, 1st Gender choice, and then each one has one important choice to make along the way, as long as you don't miss that one thing, and you're not a complete tool who purposefully pisses off the person (And you need to try pretty hard to screw some of these things up basically doing it on purpose). You unlock the thing. All relationships basically work this way, just say the right thing one time, or do the right thing one time and get the reward/bonus/etc....

My point is, it's a limitation of the game mechanics, not a bug or bad design, at least not bad design when compared to the rest of the game. The system basically locks/Unlocks things behind skill/dialogue checks. The "Affinity Percentage" is not "Real" it's just about completion how far have you moved the story. Having Affinity be the trigger, basically removes any trigger, since you would just get it for doing the missions no matter what choice you made. This is probably the best way they had to implement it based on existing systems.

Like here's the thing, I'm not even arguing that they couldn't have done better, but based on how the game worked at launch, and the fact that fixing affinity/relationship mechanics was probably WAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY down the list, I'm not surprised this is how it played out. It works in context. Could they have reworked it later on with one of the overhauls or expansions, sure, but honestly, I don't think it was important enough to rebuild that system.

For the Sequel, I'd love to see a more fleshed out relationship mechanic, I'd like choices to matter a bit more in general. Currently you need to go pretty out of your way to make the "Worst" outcome happen in most situations. Like literally abandoning people mid mission, and purposefully failing hard. So yeah, the system could absolutely be better, CP2077 is a great game, mostly very well written, fun combat interesting world and characters, but it falls a little short on RPG systems, which I think we'd all agree it would be nice to see them really build that out more for Orion whenever that actually happens.

 

[Orikon25]

Yes, it makes no sense. The way your relationship with Johnny progresses and what it depends on (or should I say, doesnt depend on) is the greatest failure of the dev team for this game.

I asked Pawel about this a few streams back, and he told me the reason your relationship doesn't depend on the actual relationship % that the game communicates to you is because of technical limitations. He agreed that it would make more sense, however, but also defended the Oil Fields as a major turning points in your relationship with Johnny. No arguments there, I fully agree, I just don't think the Oil Fields should be the only thing it depends on.

And while I am not a dev, I'm just not sure I buy that story about technical limitations considering that:
a) the game already tracks your pro-Johnny choices, which is how the relationship % advances in the first place
b) everything else the game can do, but somehow it can't check for a simple % during dialogue branches?

He also said that most players don't analyze it so deeply, which is false because the way your relationship with Johnny progresses and what matters and/or doesn't matter is one of the most common misconceptions about the game.

 

[DjSpyder]

Yes, it makes no sense. The way your relationship with Johnny progresses and what it depends on (or should I say, doesnt depend on) is the greatest failure of the dev team for this game.

I asked Pawel about this a few streams back, and he told me the reason your relationship doesn't depend on the actual relationship % that the game communicates to you is because of technical limitations. He agreed that it would make more sense, however, but also defended the Oil Fields as a major turning points in your relationship with Johnny. No arguments there, I fully agree, I just don't think the Oil Fields should be the only thing it depends on.

And while I am not a dev, I'm just not sure I buy that story about technical limitations considering that:
a) the game already tracks your pro-Johnny choices, which is how the relationship % advances in the first place
b) everything else the game can do, but somehow it can't check for a simple % during dialogue branches?

He also said that most players don't analyze it so deeply, which is false because the way your relationship with Johnny progresses and what matters and/or doesn't matter is one of the most common misconceptions about the game.

The Technical limitation is in tracking the choices..... If you pay attention, the choices don't really matter. If you go on the date with Rouge sure that is technically a "Choice" but it's the choice to do the mission or not, any actual choices you make During the mission don't affect relationship progress, The percentage is a completion tracker not an actual relationship level. As long as you do the missions the number goes up, there is no choice you can make that will make the number go down, you just do the side missions and eventually it goes high enough.

The other limitation is how branching quests work in the game, Things are locked behind very simple checks, If check X = yes, then option Y= yes. To incorporate some of what you're talking about, the system would need to be more complex. And honestly sometimes the checks are still broken, I've had the opposite choice/outcome/etc... from the one I actually got, referenced by someone later in the game. Things like someone I know I let live, or I know I saved, later be referred to as dead. As if the dialogue or trigger in that one scene is broken, only to later see the correct dialogue or whatever displayed somewhere else. It was definitely an engine/technical hurdle they could not overcome.

As I said before, the deeper RPG elements of this game, felt, and still do to some degree.... unfinished. It is something that absolutely needs to be expanded on in sequels.

 

[Kormac67]

The other limitation is how branching quests work in the game, Things are locked behind very simple checks, If check X = yes, then option Y= yes

How else should it work? You could count decisions, like in AC Valhalla when you fail more than two out of five choices Sigurd leaves. But that is still basically the same. Calculating arbitrary (and probably intransparent) attraction levels would only lead to frustration when the game plays out differently for different people based on long past and forgotten dialogue choices.

It was definitely an engine/technical hurdle they could not overcome.

More likely just script bugs. If the quest fact system was actually broken the game would never get anywhere.
An obvious one is when you shoot Royce you get Meredith, when you grab and kill him you get the weasel. Makes zero sense.

All Romances are Based on 2 Choices, 1st Gender choice, and then each one has one important choice to make along the way, as long as you don't miss that one thing

Which is good. Think of Mass Effect. You are supposed to patrol your companions after each mission, getting the same dialogs most of the time. And if you stop doing that at some point, no Liara for you. (Gender choice is dumb however. I play female and prefer female romances so I'm stuck with lesbian options if there even are any. No Panam without mods.)

The way your relationship with Johnny progresses and what it depends on (or should I say, doesnt depend on) is the greatest failure of the dev team for this game.

I'm sure people can think of a dozen or a hundred others.
Like the all depressing endings or the perma rush that you are dying and really should do something about it when actually you should play out the side story arcs at leisure or seriously miss out.

 

[DjSpyder]

@Kormac67 My point is that it's not "Bugged" or "Bad Design".... The system for unlocking the secret ending is working within the limitations of the system they built. In order to have different trigger states, and change the requirements for the ending, they either would have needed to build something specific to the ending OR have a more complex affinity system in the base game itself. The reason I called them "Limitations" is because as @Orikon25 said, Pawel himself said it was done this way due to limitations, and Orikon25 response was "I'm just not sure I buy that story about technical limitations" SO I was pointing out that the systems have limits, what those limits are and likely what Pawel meant.

I'm saying it's working as intended, If you go back my points are all mostly in agreement with you. Just as a response to the OP... It's definitely not "Bugged" or wrong.

 

[MartineDee]

Kinda yea, guilting Johnny into helping makes sense.

Though, even that whole thing is BS. Arasaka Tower is just there. V should have the option to stride in at any point in the game, but not to have anything to do with the pillar before they have the shard from Alt. And every time they enter, stronger and stronger hordes of Arasaka soldiers are on them. No saves.

Q: Mom mom mom! Can I raid Arasaka tower for the 100th time?
Q back: Do I have to watch....
A: It would be nice.
Q back: Have you done your homework?
A: Maybe...
A back: well maybe you can do it alone then.
A: Okay...

Do you know what I miss... Adam Smasher makes no reference to Jackie whatsoever. He should try to get control over V holding Jackie's shard/body location or something. That would be an epic encounter for the history books.

Adam: Too bad you don't get to save your friend from our vaults. You failed him again. And now you will die!
V: Funny. 'you failed him again. you failed him again waa waa waa.' I will use your head as a puppet and make it say that over and over again. Life is good, you know! (BG1 reference xD)
Adam: You are dead meat.
V: Boo-hoo, you're boring.

Adam: This is beyond you!
V: My life is beyond *you*, you numpty!

 

[Iosephus]

Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous has something similar where certain companion/ending scenarios are completely dependent on the player making a specific dialogue choice. I'd argue it's even more unforgiving in that game because these choices sometimes occur in the early acts of the game and by the time you realize you're locked out of a particular ending, it's far too late to go back and reload a save.

I know from a design perspective, developers utilize this sort of delayed consequence to hinder save scumming. Usually most RPGs will show you the consequence of a choice almost immediately afterwards, which in turn increases the chance that players will save scum until they get their desired outcome.

It's funny, there are games that do the opposite of this, like Dragon Age: Inquisition, where they specifically warn you in the interface that you're about to make a monumental choice, and I remember people complaining about that because they say it "ruins" their immersion. I personally, however, liked that the game tells you that the following choice is important.

I can understand why CDPR went this route because they wanted it to be a secret ending; not only do you have to pick a specific dialogue choice, but you have to wait for several minutes during dialogue with Johnny before it reveals itself. There have been far more controversial ways to access secret endings, like Mass Effect 3, that initially required you to do multiplayer to get the final scene. That ending was ironically unlocked by meeting a specific military strength/readiness, which people lost their minds about (I played the MP so it didn't bother me).

 

[Orikon25]

The Technical limitation is in tracking the choices..... If you pay attention, the choices don't really matter. If you go on the date with Rouge sure that is technically a "Choice" but it's the choice to do the mission or not, any actual choices you make During the mission don't affect relationship progress, The percentage is a completion tracker not an actual relationship level. As long as you do the missions the number goes up, there is no choice you can make that will make the number go down, you just do the side missions and eventually it goes high enough.

The other limitation is how branching quests work in the game, Things are locked behind very simple checks, If check X = yes, then option Y= yes. To incorporate some of what you're talking about, the system would need to be more complex. And honestly sometimes the checks are still broken, I've had the opposite choice/outcome/etc... from the one I actually got, referenced by someone later in the game. Things like someone I know I let live, or I know I saved, later be referred to as dead. As if the dialogue or trigger in that one scene is broken, only to later see the correct dialogue or whatever displayed somewhere else. It was definitely an engine/technical hurdle they could not overcome.

As I said before, the deeper RPG elements of this game, felt, and still do to some degree.... unfinished. It is something that absolutely needs to be expanded on in sequels.

Aren't there other things that raise the %, like smoking cigaretes when Johnny asks you, and certain dialogue options? I always thought it was a tracker for pro-Johnny choices or quests, rather than just the quests.

Anyway, I'm a Mass Effect 3 modder - a game that came out 11 years ago - and in there we have something called Conditionals, which can simultaneously and instantly check for various quest states, decisions, or dialogue choices you made. Don't tell me that Cyberpunk, with all of its insane technical complexities, doesn't have something similar.

 

[DjSpyder]

BioWare has done some great stuff with Affinity and companion relationships, they've done it in KOTOR, Mass Effect, SWTOR, etc....

But they also have full companion systems, and much more depth to companion gifts/quests/etc... they're also much deeper RPG type games, this is much more of an action RPG, that is light on the RPG part, so yes, I'm telling you CDPR did not have as complex of a system in the game. They basically said outright that it was technical limitations they have no reason to lie on that. There is a reason they're moving to a new engine.

EDIT: It's also important to note that, even if Red Engine itself COULD make a more complex system work. The engine had many limitations they ran into which caused features to be cut, reworked, tweaked, and otherwise ate up development time. Time is also a finite resource, so the more time they spent trying to force things to work, the less time they had to flesh out other things, even if theoretically they could have, they just didn't have the time or resources to devote to doing it. That's why it took over a year to get to the 1.5 update which is what really turned the game around and another year to get to the 2.0 overhaul, they were struggling to make the core stuff they wanted to work, work, it's also why some changes only came on new gen and not old consoles.

 

[MartineDee]

I can understand why CDPR went this route because they wanted it to be a secret ending; not only do you have to pick a specific dialogue choice, but you have to wait for several minutes during dialogue with Johnny before it reveals itself.

Fwiw, I was genuinely stuck and would have been for much longer, thiking which of the sh!t choices to pick. This waiting will come natural in some gameplays. And I remember this 'save your soul' ad repeatedly flashing. Fucking Sakas. Fuck Sakas. Let's gooo! Hell yeah!!

 

[Iosephus]

Fwiw, I was genuinely stuck and would have been for much longer, thiking which of the sh!t choices to pick. This waiting will come natural in some gameplays. And I remember this 'save your soul' ad repeatedly flashing. Fucking Sakas. Fuck Sakas. Let's gooo! Hell yeah!!

I think that's the cool part of it; they essentially made it accessible if you hesitate to answer. While I personally didn't get the secret ending the first time on my blind playthrough, I did wait a bit before answering because I wasn't sure what to pick.

 

[Zyad_Apo]

Aren't there other things that raise the %, like smoking cigaretes when Johnny asks you, and certain dialogue options? I always thought it was a tracker for pro-Johnny choices or quests, rather than just the quests.

Anyway, I'm a Mass Effect 3 modder - a game that came out 11 years ago - and in there we have something called Conditionals, which can simultaneously and instantly check for various quest states, decisions, or dialogue choices you made. Don't tell me that Cyberpunk, with all of its insane technical complexities, doesn't have something similar.

You should check this video instead of the one you linked (from the same guy)