The canon conclusion to the 4rth Corporate War

+
My knowledge on this is still pretty-much based on Wisdom and Wikipedia, so what actually happened in the gaming community during that big time-lag between Shockwave and the CP77 announcement?

It's clear that PnP players didn't all just switch to V3, but how much of that would you say was because of the change to Fuzion, and how much because of a lack of acceptance of the post-2020 history, or were there other reasons too?

Because I'm definitely getting a strong impression from you all that only 2020 should be considered canon, and that while some of the events in Firestorm may be included, they could also be changing a lot. And that this would probably be a desirable direction.

Firestorm stormfront and shockwave are the books that focused in the 4th Megacorp war and designed as the introduction of the V3 book is because all the trouble it was hard to drop old habits to adapt new ones and is a bad idea to print pics of barbies and geypermans with fancy cyber looks as models of illustrations.


Despite all of that it is a good game, and if one reads it whit attention it does not have so many flaws in his argument.
 
My knowledge on this is still pretty-much based on Wisdom and Wikipedia, so what actually happened in the gaming community during that big time-lag between Shockwave and the CP77 announcement?

It's clear that PnP players didn't all just switch to V3, but how much of that would you say was because of the change to Fuzion, and how much because of a lack of acceptance of the post-2020 history, or were there other reasons too?

Because I'm definitely getting a strong impression from you all that only 2020 should be considered canon, and that while some of the events in Firestorm may be included, they could also be changing a lot. And that this would probably be a desirable direction.

Very very very few 2020 players switched to V3, and the majority of the ones that did switched back because they couldn't find anyone interested in playing....

If the outcome of the 4th corporate war is changed, it's impact and the events therein lessened, and V3 were ignored in its entirety, that would be desirable to the vast majority of the games fans,...

I didn't make the jump to v3 because I didn't know about it. =p Had a pretty good gap of not playing ANY PnP games, so I didn't even know about it until discussion in this forum, honestly. So, most of the timeline I'm aware of after 2020 is piecemeal knowledge.

I suspect most of this game's market is not going to be invested in the PnP game, nor come from the PnP background. As stated above, I'm expecting a certain amount of artistic license being taken.

I disagree. I think Mike sees this as a second chance, to re-invigorate a franchise that was nearly killed.... to reboot a gaming company that hasn't put out a new product in over a decade. I think everything that makes it into the video game WILL make it into the tabletop game... I go into more detail as to why i the other thread, but the reasoning behind this is pretty solid.

I quite agree with you.
Except that D Lundee is (here again, if my memories are true) depicted as a patriot and he is still faithful to his country and chain of command. A bit simple.

Firestorm stormfront and shockwave are the books that focused in the 4th Megacorp war and designed as the introduction of the V3 book is because all the trouble it was hard to drop old habits to adapt new ones and is a bad idea to print pics of barbies and geypermans with fancy cyber looks as models of illustrations.


Despite all of that it is a good game, and if one reads it whit attention it does not have so many flaws in his argument.

I don't know what a geyperman in.... but as I have said, the problem with V3 is that it was called Cyberpunk. If it had been it's own thing, it likely would have been much better received. It was a kind of nifty setting. But it was not what any of the fans of Cyberpunk 2020 wanted, to the point that it pretty much killed not only the frnachise, but R.Talsorian itself....

Some companies can get away with drastic setting changes.... however really the only ones who ca do it successfully, are heavily funded fantasy games. Dungeons and Dragons could do it, Though even they took a ridiculous amount of flack over 4e and the changes made to the forgotten realms.... to the point that the forgotten realms franchise suffered horrible losses, and after less than 5 years, the rules are being completely re-written yet again. DnD can do this, because they have Wizards Of The Coast and Hasbro money behind them...

R.Talsorian does not have that kind of money, nor does it have the brand recognition and fanbase to get that experimental, to make such drastically reviled changes, and be able to bounce back.

The Cyberpunk video game is a huge wager, not only for CDPR, but it is literally the life or death wager for R. Talsorian games... The video game is CPR for the cyberpunk franchise, R. Talsorians most popular brand. If the video game fails... it will be a blow to CDPR, but it could end up being disastrous for R. Talsorian. So to ensure it's success, and to ensure the success of the tabletop game, R.Tal and CDPR would be well advised to stick to the proven formula in terms what made Cyberpunk 2020 so popular at it's apex...
 
So one more question, regarding Cybergeneration.

I'm not sure of its timing relative to Firestorm, but I gather that it was before V3. Wikipedia describes it as an "alternative" future, and mentions that the events in it are NOT reflected in V3. So clearly it's non-canon, and presumably irrelevant as far as CP77 is concerned. But how was it seen when it was first released? Was it ever considered canon, or was it always presented as "alternative"? (Again, I'm looking at how much of a precedent there is for re-writing the history).
 
So one more question, regarding Cybergeneration.

I'm not sure of its timing relative to Firestorm, but I gather that it was before V3. Wikipedia describes it as an "alternative" future, and mentions that the events in it are NOT reflected in V3. So clearly it's non-canon, and presumably irrelevant as far as CP77 is concerned. But how was it seen when it was first released? Was it ever considered canon, or was it always presented as "alternative"? (Again, I'm looking at how much of a precedent there is for re-writing the history).

Cybergeneration was never considered canon... from thebeginning it was an alternate setting, because R. Tal knew that not every one would be onboard with the idea of the inclusion of super powers. And since the entire game was based around playing juveniles, it made for a pretty limited... but surprisingly large, audience. Cybergen itself was great... predominantly is was so accepted because it WAS always treated as an alternate universe. Cybergen took place in 2077, while the Firestorm books took place in 2022.

V3 took place "some time in the 2030's, no one really knows for sure, because derp!" According to the v3 timeilne, the Datakrash consisted of a computer virus created by the "hero" rache bartmoss which completely destroyed the net, making it unsafe to log on even for a bit. (A m,uch more dangerous virus tahn the US military set of a nuke in arasaka tower to keep out of arasaka hands, but again, derp). The loss of the internet jhappenned at the same time someone realeased a genetically engineered real world nanite virus, that ate paper... once more, because derp. So with no paper, and an untrustworthy internet, humanity becomes retarded in ten years, and can no longer tell the date, and thinks Charlie Chaplin and his evil naxi empire tried to take over the world, till the UN came riding in on dinosaurs and "un-nazi'd" the world...

Yeah... V3 was Idiocracy, only with self replicating apartment buildings that would eat you on a bad day, that people still had to pay rent to live in.... so one last time... DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRPPPPPP!
 
Always thought it was cool how the Shockwave books explored a LOT Of really cool stuff - gizmos, FBCs, Aquatic fighting and how corporations would fight a "Hot" conflict.

Nevertheless hot conflicts are NEVER in a corporation's best interests the cost too much damn money the 4th corporate war ended up being a pissing match between Militech and Arasaka and a Lady the female Prez had to bring the KING SIZED BOOTS [Queen?] to get the world back to making money.

Taking the fourth corporate war VERBATIM and in all its specific details would be a TERRRIBLE idea as it has been cogently explained by other posts in this thread, but the broad stroaks, as historical events the tech, the main character's stories now THAT would be appropriate and it's going to be a SIGNIFICANT amount of time past the 4th corporate war these events though Important will have faded back into the historical background of the setting allowing the game makers to create something that respects but isn't limited by the mistakes/complexities that confuse believablity and whatever in the service of entertaining PnP gamers.

2020 should be taken as bible, everything past that as thoughtful icing on a delicious cyber enhanced cake.
 
Always thought it was cool how the Shockwave books explored a LOT Of really cool stuff - gizmos, FBCs, Aquatic fighting and how corporations would fight a "Hot" conflict.

Nevertheless hot conflicts are NEVER in a corporation's best interests the cost too much damn money the 4th corporate war ended up being a pissing match between Militech and Arasaka and a Lady the female Prez had to bring the KING SIZED BOOTS [Queen?] to get the world back to making money.

Taking the fourth corporate war VERBATIM and in all its specific details would be a TERRRIBLE idea as it has been cogently explained by other posts in this thread, but the broad stroaks, as historical events the tech, the main character's stories now THAT would be appropriate and it's going to be a SIGNIFICANT amount of time past the 4th corporate war these events though Important will have faded back into the historical background of the setting allowing the game makers to create something that respects but isn't limited by the mistakes/complexities that confuse believablity and whatever in the service of entertaining PnP gamers.

2020 should be taken as bible, everything past that as thoughtful icing on a delicious cyber enhanced cake.


I pretty much agree with everything you just posted...
 
I disagree. I think Mike sees this as a second chance, to re-invigorate a franchise that was nearly killed.... to reboot a gaming company that hasn't put out a new product in over a decade. I think everything that makes it into the video game WILL make it into the tabletop game... I go into more detail as to why i the other thread, but the reasoning behind this is pretty solid.
Mmm... I think we're looking at two sides of the same coin.

I think a LOT of the old-school PnP 2020 folks will be in to this game, as they become aware of it. I think the old-school PnP folks will make up a small fraction of total sales.

Just from the feedback we've seen in the forums here, lot of people are aware of the game from the Witcher forums, the teaser promo vid, or the New Jacks that are getting in to the genre from GitS, and whatever else it is the kids are watching nowadays. =p
 
Mmm... I think we're looking at two sides of the same coin.

I think a LOT of the old-school PnP 2020 folks will be in to this game, as they become aware of it. I think the old-school PnP folks will make up a small fraction of total sales.

Just from the feedback we've seen in the forums here, lot of people are aware of the game from the Witcher forums, the teaser promo vid, or the New Jacks that are getting in to the genre from GitS, and whatever else it is the kids are watching nowadays. =p

The thing is, you are right, the people coming at it as fans of the tabletop game are indeed a small fraction... thats not even in contention...

What I am saying is, the video game will set the setting for the new pnp game...

And while that market is much smaller, I get way more enjoyment out of my cyberpunk 2020 tabletop game than I have gotten out of every video game ever made combined...

So mike very carefully needs to consider that what the game says, will be the new canon, so he has to make sure it has the feel, and remains a world that is infinitely playable...
 
The thing is, you are right, the people coming at it as fans of the tabletop game are indeed a small fraction... thats not even in contention...

What I am saying is, the video game will set the setting for the new pnp game...

And while that market is much smaller, I get way more enjoyment out of my cyberpunk 2020 tabletop game than I have gotten out of every video game ever made combined...

So mike very carefully needs to consider that what the game says, will be the new canon, so he has to make sure it has the feel, and remains a world that is infinitely playable...
Right right; I'm tracking now.

It'll be interesting to see what happens between Mike and CDPR. I guess they could keep with the original 2013 / 2020 timeline, though, considering we're in 2013 now, it'd have to be spun as an "alternate timeline" kind of thing. Honestly, I'd be surprised if the didn't retcon the timeline at least a bit. Suppose we'll see.
 
Right right; I'm tracking now.

It'll be interesting to see what happens between Mike and CDPR. I guess they could keep with the original 2013 / 2020 timeline, though, considering we're in 2013 now, it'd have to be spun as an "alternate timeline" kind of thing. Honestly, I'd be surprised if the didn't retcon the timeline at least a bit. Suppose we'll see.

Thats what the other 4rth corp war thread I have going is about...

That the best, least confusing, and most fan pleasing way to make the game, is to reboot the timeline, start the new timeline at year 2020, then include all the events of the Cyberpunk 2020 timeline, but stretch them out with new dates, to cover up to year 2077...

This gives us the new timeline, including the 4rth corp war if they must, but the setting and general tech level of Cyberpunk 2020. It keeps the tech from getting crazy, and the setting from turning into something crazy. It also gives the tech legacy... full conversions and cybernetics have been in place for a while, with generations of models, as opposed to the relatively brand new thing they were in 2020. So you can see some old homeless dude with a busted hoopty cyberleg begging for scraps, and it doesn't look out of place.
 
A timeline revamp seems best and given the tiny amount of people who know the details of the timeline, there's no real downside to it. Plus, it will -infuriate- the really hardcore. All three of them.

The 4th war is constantly referred to in interviews so it's in. Nyah, Wisdom. Given CDPR's gleeful modification of the Witcher storyline, I'm sure they'l be adapting and rewriting though.

I'm far from certain the PnP will have a new edition. And I'm leery anyway. LEE RY.
 
A timeline revamp seems best and given the tiny amount of people who know the details of the timeline, there's no real downside to it. Plus, it will -infuriate- the really hardcore. All three of them.

The 4th war is constantly referred to in interviews so it's in. Nyah, Wisdom. Given CDPR's gleeful modification of the Witcher storyline, I'm sure they'l be adapting and rewriting though.

I'm far from certain the PnP will have a new edition. And I'm leery anyway. LEE RY.

The point is, if there is a new version of the PnP game, it will be be based off the video game.... Any changes to the setting, history, etc... made for the video game, will show up as the new default for the tabletop game. So it's important.... to me at least, and to every fan of the tabletop game, that CDPR is very careful with how far they want to advance the tech, or change the setting.
 
Plus, it will -infuriate- the really hardcore. All three of them.
Ha.

The point is, if there is a new version of the PnP game, it will be be based off the video game.... Any changes to the setting, history, etc... made for the video game, will show up as the new default for the tabletop game. So it's important.... to me at least, and to every fan of the tabletop game, that CDPR is very careful with how far they want to advance the tech, or change the setting.
Unless they do a "parallel universe / alternate timeline" thing (which seems a bit too DC Comics for my taste,) a carefully considered retcon seems like the way to go.
 
I dunno. What I read seemed to indicate Mike is doing the immediately post-2020 stuff, so I expect relatively little tech advancement in 2025 or 2030. Social stuff and RULES UPDATES. Yay. Drug rules anyone?

On the other hand, if CDPR is having Mike do 2025 and they remain on target for 2077, I just can't see how they are going to keep 2077 gritty or punk without some serious stretching of belief-fabrics.

Maybe it'll be like 2020 plus more stuff in space? Or perhaps the world will be recovering from a really nasty world wide civilization crash and just by 2075 or so starting to resemble 2020 again?
 
The 4th war is constantly referred to in interviews so it's in. Nyah, Wisdom. Given CDPR's gleeful modification of the Witcher storyline, I'm sure they'l be adapting and rewriting though.

Huh? They didn't rewrite the Witcher storyline. There are a few inconsistencies and errors on dates when the narrative or a character discusses the past, partly due to the fact that Sapkowsky himself was somewhat erratic/vague on dates, but that doesn't actually affect the game in any way.

Other than that, I don't think there's any retcon between books and games. The games take place after the books end. The only real retcon was regarding some player choices in TW1 that weren't reflected correctly in TW2.

Based on the way CDPR handled The Witcher, I'd expect them to respect whatever they and Mike decide is canon, which would include everything in 2020. I'd also expect Mike to be the driving force in deciding the history of the world between 2020 and 2077, although CDPR may have some specific requests for included/excluded events. I'd also expect CDPR to be the driving force in deciding what happens in the game itself.

So as far as a PnP update is concerned, I'd expect it to have the same world history as the game, but that's all it'll share.
 
I didn't say or mean they rewrote the storyline. I did say and mean they have modified the ongoing story based on what they want.

For one, the books haven't ended. And for two, Sapkowski considers the game a complete departure from his books. To wit,

"The game - with all due respect to it, but let's finally say it openly - is not an 'alternative version', nor a sequel. The game is a free adaptation containing elements of my work; an adaptation created by different authors," he noted.

"Adaptations - although they can in a way relate to the story told in the books - can never aspire to the role of a follow-up. They can never add prologues nor prequels, let alone epilogues and sequels. "

This is not to say they varied wildly or departed heavily from their material. It is to say CDPR did their own version, their own modification of Geralt's adventures and story.

Not Sapkowski's.

Having read the books, as I'm sure you have, one difference I noted in the games were that Game Geralt talks a lot less than Book Geralt, who does love to lecture. That's off the top of my head, but I'm fairly sure there are others.
 
OK, At that level I'd agree with you.

Yes, the game is an "alternative" in that Sapkowski didn't write it, didn't endorse it, and therefore it isn't and should never be considered canon, but they didn't retcon the books. Geralt's character and personality is different (explained by the amnesia, presumably due primarily to the need to allow the player to decide such things).

This is also the approach that I'd expect to see on CP77. 2020 is canon. Mike, not CDPR, will decide what is canon in the period between 2020 and (close to) 2077 (although he may include input from CDPR). Mike, not CDPR and not the video-game fans, will determine whether or not the video-game becomes canon for any PnP update. CDPR shouldn't attempt to retcon anything from 2020, and, based on their handling of The Witcher, probably won't.
 
Yep. It's an approach which has served them well. This time the author is in total-interface mode, too, so I hope for extra joyousness there. But they'll probably leave 2020 unchanged.

Which is too bad, since I agree with Wisdom that retconning the timeline for 2020 to bring it up to date with modern events, then stretching it out so that 2077 dovetails neatly with about 2025 in CP2020 canon, would be optimal.

Oh, well. If I could convince them to do this, I would. Right after I had alpha access, muwahah. Hmm. Maybe I should have applied for that CDPR job. But, you know, Poland. It's cold there!
 
Cybergeneration was never considered canon... from thebeginning it was an alternate setting, because R. Tal knew that not every one would be onboard with the idea of the inclusion of super powers. And since the entire game was based around playing juveniles, it made for a pretty limited... but surprisingly large, audience. Cybergen itself was great... predominantly is was so accepted because it WAS always treated as an alternate universe. Cybergen took place in 2077, while the Firestorm books took place in 2022.

V3 took place "some time in the 2030's, no one really knows for sure, because derp!" According to the v3 timeilne, the Datakrash consisted of a computer virus created by the "hero" rache bartmoss which completely destroyed the net, making it unsafe to log on even for a bit. (A m,uch more dangerous virus tahn the US military set of a nuke in arasaka tower to keep out of arasaka hands, but again, derp). The loss of the internet jhappenned at the same time someone realeased a genetically engineered real world nanite virus, that ate paper... once more, because derp. So with no paper, and an untrustworthy internet, humanity becomes retarded in ten years, and can no longer tell the date, and thinks Charlie Chaplin and his evil naxi empire tried to take over the world, till the UN came riding in on dinosaurs and "un-nazi'd" the world...

Yeah... V3 was Idiocracy, only with self replicating apartment buildings that would eat you on a bad day, that people still had to pay rent to live in.... so one last time... DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRPPPPPP!


As you resume the V3 sounds deeerp even to me, but it was not that way and you can confuse people is because i will take the liberty to put a lil bit of order and explain all that messed events you explained above 1st; the DataKrash started during the hot wars (see firestorm shockwave for details), all mayor players in this war realized at some point that something was going wrong with the net and everything related to it, but was
deliberately concealed .

The first ones in realizing what was happening were Arasaka security and not because they were smart but because they killed Rache (see stormfront for details) . Soulkiller 2.0 was running in those times and Rache was trying to destroying it, this happened mid 2022.

2nd; Because Saburo was really a cunning guy he designed a plan to get the most of it , knowing that who control information controls everything he created a massive database with all that can be considered useful for humanity and to keep records of history apart of 20 years of very sensitive information gathered by their intelligence services about megacorps operations worldwide an the Alpha database was created and put at safe at the recently constructed Arasaka towers in Night City that is sit above 2 kilotons nuke ''just in case'' .

3rd; Because Saburo was mad, he ordered to create Paper Viral V524 that is a bacterium that eats free acid paper just to be sure nobody have, blueprints, history records or any paper source of information and released it, this happened in late 2022, Soulkiller 3.0 could be completed in those days.

4th A team of edgerunners backed with US Army and militech forces designed a plan for 1º destroy Soulkiller Mainframe and memory banks and 2º recover destroy or copy Alpha Database the mission went bad to say something because soulkiller wasn´t destroyed ( it was redirected to another facility) and the team was decimated leaving the rest of the group with the only option of destroy soullkiller mainframe triggering in the process the 2 kiloton nuke under Arasaka tower, although they don´t know the nuke was there and is not sure if they triggered the bomb or was
a direct order of Saburo which I think is more probably, this happened also in late 2022.


5th With Rache´s dead RABIDS went loose and it began to spread the net without control adding this to DataKrash was to much for Netwatch specially with a global war going , this happened in 2023 and DataKrash was infecting about a 90 % of the net .

Some facts:

Neither OETEC , CINO , Militech or Arasaka started hostilities the guilty was the Euro Bank the shadow behind the acts that started the war.

One of the main reasons for the relocation of Night City was the rise of the sea level caused by the melting of polar masses due direct impact of space mirrors rays.

Now i think is a little bit less deeeeerrrrp .


However i think that if they want to create another timeline with or without the 4th war I´ll buy it just because either way is going to be a nice trip.
 
Top Bottom